2014 Cleanest Peloton Ever

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Mar 7, 2009
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hiero2 said:
Here is another good quote from the article linked

All this negativity - taking a rational suspicion and taking it to mean that everyone is still doping? It misses a major point being made by Vaughters and others. Namely, so what if some ARE still microdosing? The levels of cheating are down to where clean riders can compete again. So, either you choose to believe that at SOME of the people in the peloton are telling the truth, or you choose to believe that they are all lieing.

Personally, since even when the peloton WAS acting in concert, omerta, word still leaked out, and today we are not seeing NO positives, I think it is rational to choose to believe that some of the people are telling the truth. There may be signs that some riders and teams are pushing the envelope, but the envelope is also a lot tighter than it was. And, we are seeing clear signs that this IS, indeed, the truth.

Conclusion. Some riders are clean. Some are not - but the extent to which they push the envelope is not what it was. It would appear that it has been limited enough so that riders who are clean can compete.

And, not saying it can not be further improved, but isn't that, ultimately, the point? You will never have a situation where people are not trying to push the envelope. People are human (tautology). Human nature and failings do not go away. Which is why we have governments and systems - to minimize the impact of the failings. I think that is what is being sought here - to get rid of human nature as part of the equation.

Oh - btw - I am pretty sure Beno will say he chooses to believe that they are all still lieing. I don't think that is even possible, much less likely, but I choose to believe that they are NOT all still lieing. I think that the omerta was only made possible because of the quite limited nature of the existing subculture then. It had a very limited membership, and a relatively stable membership, with a long path to entry, and relatively high barriers to entry. With the commercial success of cycling, that began to change, and continues to change.

Good post, Hiero.

I think we need to take a pragmatic approach (and possibly one the UCI has already taken with the biopassport) in that it is IMPOSSIBLE to eradicate doping, but it is possible to reduce the impact of it, and the levels to which a rider can dope. It isn't perfect, but it is better than the freewheeling 90s. The Armstrong docs were on TV in the UK over the weekend, and I had forgotten how he he often had to brake hard going up and around mountain switchbacks
 
May 26, 2010
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hiero2 said:
Here is another good quote from the article linked

All this negativity - taking a rational suspicion and taking it to mean that everyone is still doping? It misses a major point being made by Vaughters and others. Namely, so what if some ARE still microdosing? The levels of cheating are down to where clean riders can compete again. So, either you choose to believe that at SOME of the people in the peloton are telling the truth, or you choose to believe that they are all lieing.

Personally, since even when the peloton WAS acting in concert, omerta, word still leaked out, and today we are not seeing NO positives, I think it is rational to choose to believe that some of the people are telling the truth. There may be signs that some riders and teams are pushing the envelope, but the envelope is also a lot tighter than it was. And, we are seeing clear signs that this IS, indeed, the truth.

Conclusion. Some riders are clean. Some are not - but the extent to which they push the envelope is not what it was. It would appear that it has been limited enough so that riders who are clean can compete.

And, not saying it can not be further improved, but isn't that, ultimately, the point? You will never have a situation where people are not trying to push the envelope. People are human (tautology). Human nature and failings do not go away. Which is why we have governments and systems - to minimize the impact of the failings. I think that is what is being sought here - to get rid of human nature as part of the equation.

Oh - btw - I am pretty sure Beno will say he chooses to believe that they are all still lieing. I don't think that is even possible, much less likely, but I choose to believe that they are NOT all still lieing. I think that the omerta was only made possible because of the quite limited nature of the existing subculture then. It had a very limited membership, and a relatively stable membership, with a long path to entry, and relatively high barriers to entry. With the commercial success of cycling, that began to change, and continues to change.

I think Vaughters is lying. Why? Because his business model is based on the sport being cleanER. When Wiggins finished 3rd(4th) in 2009, he was training away from Garmin and the team barely saw the guy. So how could JV say Wiggins was clean if he didn't know what he was doing?

Omerta still exists. O'Grady was not kicked by the peloton last year, was he. Horner got a team, Katusha using a doping doctor with a criminal record from TVM days and this is just stuff we know about and some examples.

UCI have not changed. Anti doping still a joke.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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hiero2 said:
Here is another good quote from the article linked

All this negativity - taking a rational suspicion and taking it to mean that everyone is still doping? It misses a major point being made by Vaughters and others. Namely, so what if some ARE still microdosing? The levels of cheating are down to where clean riders can compete again. So, either you choose to believe that at SOME of the people in the peloton are telling the truth, or you choose to believe that they are all lieing.
you gotta be kidding me.
vaughters also thinks wiggins and froome are clean.
he doesn't seem to mind that his allegedly clean riders get beaten by (former) dopers). what does that tell you? indeed, all you need to know.
he claims former dopers are angry at new generation dopers.
he's a former doper but his (former) riders wiggins and talansky were all over the place sweet talking lance still in 2012. need i say more? hesjedal/weltz non-confession confessions. etc.
how can you take anything vaughters says wrt antidoping seriously?
 
May 26, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
I think Vaughters is lying. Why? Because his business model is based on the sport being cleanER. When Wiggins finished 3rd(4th) in 2009, he was training away from Garmin and the team barely saw the guy. So how could JV say Wiggins was clean if he didn't know what he was doing?

Omerta still exists. O'Grady was not kicked by the peloton last year, was he. Horner got a team, Katusha using a doping doctor with a criminal record from TVM days and this is just stuff we know about and some examples.

UCI have not changed. Anti doping still a joke.


RRRRRR-men.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
I think Vaughters is lying. Why? Because his business model is based on the sport being cleanER. When Wiggins finished 3rd(4th) in 2009, he was training away from Garmin and the team barely saw the guy. So how could JV say Wiggins was clean if he didn't know what he was doing?

Omerta still exists. O'Grady was not kicked by the peloton last year, was he. Horner got a team, Katusha using a doping doctor with a criminal record from TVM days and this is just stuff we know about and some examples.

UCI have not changed. Anti doping still a joke.

if vaughters were antidoping, he'd be pointing out the holes in the system, rather than praising that same system and telling us clean riders can finally win.
 
Aug 13, 2010
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Feb 20, 2010
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Didn't know where to put this but this seems like as good a place as any. It's interesting to read up on the UCI's list of banned athletes, what they did and the bans, it highlights some interesting inconsistencies.

- Apparently Carlos Barredo's results from October 2007 to September 2011 have been wiped due to biopassport irregularities. Yet they haven't advised the statistics department as this does not appear to have taken place.
- Morocco's Saïd Bdadou tested positive for prednisone and prednisolone at his national Tour in 2013; he was banned for 18 months.
- Volodymyr Bileka is currently undergoing a four year ban for pseudoephedrine, which he tested positive for at the Tour of Trakya in 2012 while riding for known clean team Törku Seker Spor. You may recognise the name: he was Popo's friend who was busted in 2008 for EPO, which scared Popo off the juice causing him to suck hard at Lotto. Why is he going to be eligible to come back at an age he will still be able to do something?
- Libardo Niño, the Chris Horner of time past, tested positive at the 2010 Vuelta a Colombia shortly before his 42nd birthday. He continued to ride on until the positive was ratified, and was officially banned for eight years at the end of May 2011. His results between the dates of the test and May 13th 2011 were nullified, removing his 2nd place in the Tour de Langkawi. However, it means that he was able to keep his results from the Tour of Azerbaijan and the International Presidency Tour of Iran - which he won* - as they fall between the date of the wiped results and the ratification of the ban. Can somebody shed some light on this?!
- Vladislav Gorbunov, the talented Kazakh on Astana Continental who was 12th in the Volta a Portugal with some impressive rides, was busted for methylhexanamine at the race, which has been rather impressively swept under the carpet. It only came to my attention when I saw Davidenok was leading in Qinghai and wondered where Gorbunov's results had been this year as he was looking impressive...
- Though we all more or less knew it was him due to the timing of his retirement mid-season connected to the Secret Pro talk of a big name GT winner being busted on the bio-passport, Denis Menchov is suspended until 2015. However, while the UCI have asked for results to be scrubbed, these ONLY apply to the Tour de France, so his 5th in the 2011 Vuelta remains as does his stage win on Bola del Mundo. If his 2010 result IS scrubbed (which it doesn't appear to have been officially), this would put Samuel Sánchez up to 2nd and Jürgen van den Broeck on to the podium.
- Aleksandr Serebryakov's ban is four years for his first offence. This suggests "aggravating circumstances" though there didn't seem to be any non-compliance on his part. This ban is as long as Bileka's for his second offence.
- Patrik Sinkewitz's 8 year ban for his recombinant HGH positive runs out in August 2020, which is nine and a half years from the positive. The UCI has also requested a scrubbing of his results in the interim period while he was riding under appeal, which would make the ban far longer than the 8 years. That said, second offence should be a life ban.
- Miguel Ubeto, banned for GW501516, is the first such rider to return to racing, with his suspension ending last month, he is racing the Vuelta a Venezuela as we speak.

*Niño only won this GC by default anyhow. The International Presidency Tour was a very mountainous race and many of the international teams that race other races in Iran were not interested in participating. Also it seems testing was very strong here as 5 other riders tested positive, including original winner Mirsamad Pourseyedi and 4th placed Rahim Emami, both riding for Azad University (you may recognise these names, especially Pourseyedi, who has returned from his ban at the same - if not better - level of climbing that he showed in this performance, which was a street above his previous level as well).
 
Jun 7, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
- Though we all more or less knew it was him due to the timing of his retirement mid-season connected to the Secret Pro talk of a big name GT winner being busted on the bio-passport, Denis Menchov is suspended until 2015. However, while the UCI have asked for results to be scrubbed, these ONLY apply to the Tour de France, so his 5th in the 2011 Vuelta remains as does his stage win on Bola del Mundo. If his 2010 result IS scrubbed (which it doesn't appear to have been officially), this would put Samuel Sánchez up to 2nd and Jürgen van den Broeck on to the podium.

Wait, wait, wait.

What?

I admit to following the sport rather less closely in the last couple of years, but how the hell did it go down so quietly?

Unless I did miss the big announcement of a 3-time GT winner being busted?
 
Jun 14, 2010
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But secret pro said that it was not one of the old guard and that they were disappointed in the team.

Neither of which can fit Menchov. -as far as him being that gt rider goes.
 
Feb 20, 2010
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roundabout said:
Wait, wait, wait.

What?

I admit to following the sport rather less closely in the last couple of years, but how the hell did it go down so quietly?

Unless I did miss the big announcement of a 3-time GT winner being busted?

Yup, looks like he took voluntary retirement, and they slapped the suspension on him with no official discussion of it.

Go to the UCI's page on suspensions and violations here and open the PDF table - scroll down to M, and there he is:

MENCHOV Denis
RUS
Biological Passport Finding
2 years
09.04.2015 (that's European format, so April 9th 2015 his first day of eligibility)
Tour de France 2009, 2010, 2012 only
 
Jan 27, 2012
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Unbelievable some of this stuff can fly under the news radar.

Glad to see Menchov banned. More so that something came out of Rasmussen's "work".
 
Apr 30, 2011
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So he was banned April 9th 2013, 16 days after his last race Catalunya. Does anyone have an idea or guesstimate how long he has been on that list officially?
 
Jun 7, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
Yup, looks like he took voluntary retirement, and they slapped the suspension on him with no official discussion of it.

Go to the UCI's page on suspensions and violations here and open the PDF table - scroll down to M, and there he is:

MENCHOV Denis
RUS
Biological Passport Finding
2 years
09.04.2015 (that's European format, so April 9th 2015 his first day of eligibility)
Tour de France 2009, 2010, 2012 only

Heh, it's almost as if he is only tested for the passport at the Tour.

Can't believe that his values were more normal in the 09 Giro for example.
 
Jun 10, 2010
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On Twitter it's like everybody found out about this some ~30 minutes ago. Did LS break this story? Congrats if that's the case. :D
 
Feb 20, 2010
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I sure didn't know about it until I checked out the UCI's site to find out what happened to Gorbunov. And then I saw the name Menchov in there and was like, what? Have I missed something?!
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Libertine Seguros said:
I sure didn't know about it until I checked out the UCI's site to find out what happened to Gorbunov. And then I saw the name Menchov in there and was like, what? Have I missed something?!

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