2014 Paris Nice parcours - the verdict

[peloton]

I don't think it necessarily needs a mountaintop finish, but it does need a properly selective stage. The stage to Fayence could have been so much more had it been like the stage to Fayence in 2009, or if the penultimate stage had some hills closer to the finish (sorry, Biot fans, Sophia Antipolis is a horrible place for the penultimate Paris-Nice stage to finish). Give us the 2009 Fayence stage, then instead of several climbs early then 60km to the finish on rolling ground, have something like the 2010 Tourettes-sur-Loup stage. Only one key climb, and with 33km still to go plenty of chance for it to be wound back (after all on that day all the big favourites finished together, but we got an epic solo victory and a close chase):

But if instead of the 2014 Fayence stage (which rather resembles this stage in profile) we got something more like the 2009 version:

Then things would be better. This is not a super-hard stage, it has the same Col de Bourigaille - Fayence finish, but with several other climbs that mean legs are more tired approaching the climb and makes it more selective. That way you don't actually need an MTF, because you have two potentially selective stages in a row there (putting 220km in the Vence stage the day after this would make it tough enough).

Here's my version of the final stage, I actually have the full descent from La Turbie to do the full climb of the Col d'Èze rather than just the final, less steep 4,5km or so. There's usually one more tough climb to begin with, such as the Col de Porte in 2010. I went with my personal favourite of the very southern Alpes-Maritimes climbs, the Col de Braus. Then the classic La Turbie-Èze combo.

There you go, 3 selective stages where the climbers CAN make a difference, but with no MTF and not so super tough you must be a climber to win. If they do a good job of the earlier stages (which let's be fair, they at least did a passable job of this year), then you can get a pretty good finale out of those three stages or something similar.

I also desperately want them to have a first stage that finishes in Plaisir, about 2km from Neauphle-le-Château. This town is notorious for having been home to Ayatollah Khomeini at one point, but it has a badass little cobbled climb:

Put in a little something for the rouleurs there, a windy stage, a pure sprinters' stage, a hilly stage around the Lyon area a bit like the Rive-de-Gier stage this year, an ITT of around 15km or a punchy stage into somewhere like Aix-en-Provence like the one Sagan won a few years back, and there you have a route with something for almost everybody imaginable.

(Yes, I had a Paris-Nice almost ready to go for the Race Design Thread before tracks4bikers' software got too obsolete for google's liking, which had quite a few of these characteristics, but instead of the Fayence/Vence stages I had an MTF. For the record, I had a Plaisir/Neauphle-le-Château stage, a long flat stage, an 18km ITT, a mostly flat stage with a couple of late hills, an MTF at Nôtre-Dame de la Salette, an Aix stage, a ripoff of the 2009 Fayence stage into Grasse, and the Nice stage noted above).

What Libertine said.

 

[rhubroma]

I don't think it necessarily needs a mountaintop finish, but it does need a properly selective stage.

I could have stopped reading there. Of course a MTF, per se, isn't necessary, though a "properly selective stage' yes.

And this is precisely what I meant by an issue of decorum, given the event's prestige.

As far as "mini-Tour" is concerened, sure it's not only that, however, the race has always historically had its place and appeal in precisely that.

After the Tour it's the biggest geographical stage race, not only in France, but all of cycling, besides the other grand Tours. PN owes a good bit of its fame and legacy to this.

PS. I'm talking about the historical calendar.

 

[jaylew]

It made for cyclists like Vichot, Rojas, and to a certain point Stybar, to be able to fight for the win. You'll never see this guys win Suisse, because you can't avoid the high mountains, nor Ctaluña, nor Pais Vasco etc...

Cancellara disagrees

I could have stopped reading there.

I certainly did.

 

[Jancouver]

I don't think it necessarily needs a mountaintop finish, but it does need a properly selective stage. The stage to Fayence could have been so much more had it been like the stage to Fayence in 2009, or if the penultimate stage had some hills closer to the finish (sorry, Biot fans, Sophia Antipolis is a horrible place for the penultimate Paris-Nice stage to finish). Give us the 2009 Fayence stage, then instead of several climbs early then 60km to the finish on rolling ground, have something like the 2010 Tourettes-sur-Loup stage. Only one key climb, and with 33km still to go plenty of chance for it to be wound back (after all on that day all the big favourites finished together, but we got an epic solo victory and a close chase):

But if instead of the 2014 Fayence stage (which rather resembles this stage in profile) we got something more like the 2009 version:

Then things would be better. This is not a super-hard stage, it has the same Col de Bourigaille - Fayence finish, but with several other climbs that mean legs are more tired approaching the climb and makes it more selective. That way you don't actually need an MTF, because you have two potentially selective stages in a row there (putting 220km in the Vence stage the day after this would make it tough enough).

Here's my version of the final stage, I actually have the full descent from La Turbie to do the full climb of the Col d'Èze rather than just the final, less steep 4,5km or so. There's usually one more tough climb to begin with, such as the Col de Porte in 2010. I went with my personal favourite of the very southern Alpes-Maritimes climbs, the Col de Braus. Then the classic La Turbie-Èze combo.

There you go, 3 selective stages where the climbers CAN make a difference, but with no MTF and not so super tough you must be a climber to win. If they do a good job of the earlier stages (which let's be fair, they at least did a passable job of this year), then you can get a pretty good finale out of those three stages or something similar.

I also desperately want them to have a first stage that finishes in Plaisir, about 2km from Neauphle-le-Château. This town is notorious for having been home to Ayatollah Khomeini at one point, but it has a badass little cobbled climb:

Put in a little something for the rouleurs there, a windy stage, a pure sprinters' stage, a hilly stage around the Lyon area a bit like the Rive-de-Gier stage this year, an ITT of around 15km or a punchy stage into somewhere like Aix-en-Provence like the one Sagan won a few years back, and there you have a route with something for almost everybody imaginable.

(Yes, I had a Paris-Nice almost ready to go for the Race Design Thread before tracks4bikers' software got too obsolete for google's liking, which had quite a few of these characteristics, but instead of the Fayence/Vence stages I had an MTF. For the record, I had a Plaisir/Neauphle-le-Château stage, a long flat stage, an 18km ITT, a mostly flat stage with a couple of late hills, an MTF at Nôtre-Dame de la Salette, an Aix stage, a ripoff of the 2009 Fayence stage into Grasse, and the Nice stage noted above).

What is missing from those stages is additional 100Km over medium mountains prior to that. Overall, these days stages are way too short IMO.

 

[jsem94]

I like not having a MTF focus, but there needs to be harder climbs or more frequent climbs for actual carnage. The fact that Rojas was in contention for top GC placings is a sign that the race wasn't hard enough.

 

[karlboss]

I thought it was a good race done well, but could be done better. No MTF great who cares, they are slow sprints anyway. No excitement at all until it comes down to only 5 guys, and then half the time someone, Let's call him C Froome (no wait too obvious), let's call him Chris F. attacks and the climb is decided in an instant anyway. There were at least 3 stages where the winner was in doubt with regards to a break at about 15 to go. If the group works well they win, if not then the attack wins. 2 out of 3 it was the attack. How can you complain about that? 3 Stages were sprints, but this isn't really a departure from other years. This race came close to being perfect.
I hope they have a shot at this again next year, but put in a solid opportunities for someone to do what Contador just did in Italy. approx 5km at under 7% within 14km isn't good enough. Libertine's suggestions would work just fine.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

I like not having a MTF focus, but there needs to be harder climbs or more frequent climbs for actual carnage. The fact that Rojas was in contention for top GC placings is a sign that the race wasn't hard enough.

Everybody keep bringing Rojas up as evidence of a poor parcours. GC Top 10:


1 BETANCUR Carlos [www.procyclingstats.com] AG2R La Mondiale 100 250 35:11:45
2 COSTA Rui Lampre - Merida 80 190 0:14
3 VICHOT Arthur FDJ.fr 70 160 0:20
4 ROJAS José Joaquin Movistar Team 60 140 0:21
5 FUGLSANG Jakob [www.procyclingstats.com] Astana Pro Team 50 120 0:29
6 GAUTIER Cyril Team Europcar 40 110 0:31
7 DENIFL Stefan IAM Cycling 30 100 0:35
8 SPILAK Simon Team Katusha 20 90 0:36
9 VELITS Peter BMC Racing Team 10 80 0:39
10 GALLOPIN Tony [www.procyclingstats.com] Lotto Belisol 4 70 0:41

Compare to T-A top 10 currently:
1 (1) CONTADOR Alberto [www.procyclingstats.com] Tinkoff-Saxo 25:17:51
2 (2) QUINTANA Nairo Movistar Team 2:08
3 (3) KREUZIGER Roman Tinkoff-Saxo 2:15
4 (4) ARREDONDO MORENO Julián David Trek Factory Racing 2:39
5 (5) PERAUD Jean-Christophe [www.procyclingstats.com] AG2R La Mondiale 2:40
6 (6) NIEVE Mikel Team Sky 2:50
7 (7) MORENO Daniel Team Katusha 2:51
8 (8) POZZOVIVO Domenico AG2R La Mondiale 2:56
9 (9) CARUSO Giampaolo Team Katusha 2:58
10 (10) KISERLOVSKI Robert [www.procyclingstats.com] Trek Factory Racing 3:06

Now since I don't rate "climbers" particularly high these days (very few of them add to race action), I see very little difference in the quality of the placements.

Rojas have tried to win a few stages at P-N, i.e hes been active at the business end several times. What has Arredondo done (as an example)? Nothing except hanging on. Why is that better than what Rojas did at P-N?

I know this boils down to individual taste etc, but I rate Rojas performance much higher here.

And fwiw, the best races for me on the calendar includes zero mountains. Instead they involve cobbles, small-ish steep hills, dirt and narrow twisty roads.

That doesn't mean I can't appreciate whats going on in races involving mountains, but more than often the race action is trivial. The scenery is often the main point for me.

edit: added narrow twisty (critical element)

 

[Pippo_San]

Now since I don't rate "climbers" particularly high these days (very few of them add to race action), I see very little difference in the quality of the placements.

Time to get a new pair of glasses dude.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Time to get a new pair of glasses dude.

Like I said, I don't rate climber these days. Gotta learn to read Pippo.

 

[Echoes]

Agreed with Dazed and Confused, for once.

From A to Z, passing by F X and Q.

And if you take the top20, it's even more obvious that PN actually had a better field. Two reigning World Champions in the top15, not many races can have that.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Agreed with Dazed and Confused, for once.

From A to Z, passing by F X and Q.

And if you take the top20, it's even more obvious that PN actually had a better field. Two reigning World Champions in the top15, not many races can have that.

lol, we will end up being banned together.

seriously though, my main concern about a classic style route is team strength. Not many amateurs (juggling work with training over the winter) at the WT level these days. Bring the size of teams down to 6 at P-N and race action will be even better.

I like to focus on the riders who wants to race here, not the guys who are looking for training miles.

 

[Armchair cyclist]

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