2016 Eneco Tour (WT): Sept 19 - 25th

[Cance > TheRest]

Re:

Sagan's lack of great ability to read a race played a bigger role in him losing today than no one cooperating. When Terpstra went, Etixx had Jungels up the road and had clearly proven to be the strongest force in the race at that point, yet Sagan, already isolated, sat back and let it happen.

It was the first potential race-defining move and he decided not to join in. Fair enough it's not easy to be the most watched guy, but in this case the blame is mostly on himself.

Do you think Etixx (Jungels) would still work if Sagan had joined that move? I don't. Before this stage, Terpstra was in the same time as Sagan. Riding home with Sagan would not give Terpstra the victory, hence there would be no idea in continuing their move if Sagan had gone with them.

 

[DFA123]

Great ride by Terpstra today, fully deserves his victory. Was certainly the strongest rider when it mattered, and great cooperation with Naesen and EBH for most of the break. Some questionable tactics again by Sagan. Particularly trying to drop everyone on the Muur 30km from the finish (especially Degenkolb and Dumoulin who were actually his allies and would have been a great help on the flatter section if Sagan hadn't burnt everyone out on the climb). But ultimately, he was too weak in any case - and once again couldn't sprint well at the end of a hard day in the saddle.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Sagan's lack of great ability to read a race played a bigger role in him losing today than no one cooperating. When Terpstra went, Etixx had Jungels up the road and had clearly proven to be the strongest force in the race at that point, yet Sagan, already isolated, sat back and let it happen.

It was the first potential race-defining move and he decided not to join in. Fair enough it's not easy to be the most watched guy, but in this case the blame is mostly on himself.

Do you think Etixx (Jungels) would still work if Sagan had joined that move? I don't. Before this stage, Terpstra was in the same time as Sagan. Riding home with Sagan would not give Terpstra the victory, hence there would be no idea in continuing their move if Sagan had gone with them.

2015 RVV suggests Terpstra would have worked with Sagan, even if the odds of winning were overwhelmingly against him.

 

[Vroome.exe]

Re: Re:

Sagan's lack of great ability to read a race played a bigger role in him losing today than no one cooperating. When Terpstra went, Etixx had Jungels up the road and had clearly proven to be the strongest force in the race at that point, yet Sagan, already isolated, sat back and let it happen.

It was the first potential race-defining move and he decided not to join in. Fair enough it's not easy to be the most watched guy, but in this case the blame is mostly on himself.

Do you think Etixx (Jungels) would still work if Sagan had joined that move? I don't. Before this stage, Terpstra was in the same time as Sagan. Riding home with Sagan would not give Terpstra the victory, hence there would be no idea in continuing their move if Sagan had gone with them.

2015 RVV suggests Terpstra would have worked with Sagan, even if the odds of winning were overwhelmingly against him.

No matter what, Vandenbergh would be chasing him.

 

[Mr.White]

Yes Sagan and GVA today were under their best. I thought Sagan will shake of more deadweight on bergs and somehow close the gap. Imo both weren´t really good on cobbled hills however there weren´t much more better riders. Sagan has in his legs also ERR and his main competitors has not. Maybe this was the difference today.

Anyway with 70 points Nairo needs pudium at GDL right? What is tie breaker if it will be 669 vs 669?

2 things.

First, Quintana said he won't race GDL. Sagan sealed the ranking victory today.

Second, Sagan dropped everybody from the GVA group on a berg, and caught the Giant-Lotto group. On the next berg dropped everyone besides Stybar and caught some members of the guys that were at the front.

Then no one cooperated and it is what it is, but Sagan was still mighty, despite racing by himself + wining 2 stages + great iTT + European title all in a row, without rest.

One thing: Why the hell Quintana came back to Europe from Colombia, if not for racing Il Lombardia, to try to win WT for himself and for the team. My guess is that he's going to ride

 

[Echoes]

Sagan fans are pathetic Calimeros. Everybody against him, booh.

Have you seen Plumelec or Quebec? At least three teams were working for him, just because he's a good wheelying showman. He got World Champion because Boasson Hagen favoured his attack.

Would you think Stybar would collaborate with Sagan with Terpstra in front? Stybar is good friend with him, though.

The only rider in the peloton I've seen exasperated by Sagan's attitude was Cancellara. Sad he retires.

 

[Flamin]

Re: Re:

Maybe it was Sagan's mistake, but would the first group ride if Sagan would join them? We dont know, but usually when Sagan joins the break, they stop and attack again. The only solution is to have teammates.

Do you think Etixx (Jungels) would still work if Sagan had joined that move? I don't. Before this stage, Terpstra was in the same time as Sagan. Riding home with Sagan would not give Terpstra the victory, hence there would be no idea in continuing their move if Sagan had gone with them.

They would have stopped of course, but that's hardly relevant. And why would Sagan need Etixx to continue their move? The only potential threat that was in front of him in GC, Dennis, was already out.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Great stage today. GVA was much worse than I expected, pleasantly surprised by Sutterlin who has been very good throughout this week - sadly, no top-10.

 

[saganboss]

Sagan fans are pathetic Calimeros. Everybody against him, booh.

Have you seen Plumelec or Quebec? At least three teams were working for him, just because he's a good wheelying showman. He got World Champion because Boasson Hagen favoured his attack.

Would you think Stybar would collaborate with Sagan with Terpstra in front? Stybar is good friend with him, though.

The only rider in the peloton I've seen exasperated by Sagan's attitude was Cancellara. Sad he retires.

no, the only reason he became world champions was because he dropped van avermaet, if greg could've followed him on the climb and then on the descent then you could be right, the only one who greg can blame is himself. and you/re wrong about cancellara too, he was annoyed by sagan's antics in sagan's first years when sagan was young and not contributing so much , say 2012-2013 but now you can't blame sagan for not working enough when he does most of the work usually in the last few years

 

[DFA123]

Sagan fans are pathetic Calimeros. Everybody against him, booh.

Have you seen Plumelec or Quebec? At least three teams were working for him, just because he's a good wheelying showman. He got World Champion because Boasson Hagen favoured his attack.

Would you think Stybar would collaborate with Sagan with Terpstra in front? Stybar is good friend with him, though.

The only rider in the peloton I've seen exasperated by Sagan's attitude was Cancellara. Sad he retires.

Have to agree; also I hate the moaning and excuses that a successful rider and sprinter is expected to work more. Sagan himself was whining about it in the interview after the race. And of course, when he finished 2nd in Quebec, there's barely a word about Majka performing a super-human domestique role; absolutely burying himself on the climbs throughout to try to hold the race together for Sagan.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re: Re:

Damn Sagan interview was killer.

"I was racing against everybody else. No one wanted to win. At least I didn't fall"
"wining or losing eneco doesn't change anything. I won more than everybody here. 2 stages, 3rd and world tour leader. "

I don't know what he was complaining about.
Everybody in that second group was just not as good as the guys in the first group (including him). That's how it works in these races of attrition.

It could've helped if you watched the god damned race.

Sagan is alone - Group of strong riders go for it - Cannondele rider falls with GVA on his wheel (barely staying on his bike)and Sagan has to brake - Group gains some seconds and the gap grows - Sagan is alone and no one cooperates - Group with Degenkolb and Major Tom goes away - Sagan is alone and no one works with him - Sagan attacks and destroys everybody and reaches the Giant group alone, without Lotto jumbo boys and GVA and Phinney - Good cooperation on that group (giant, peter, loto red), until Degenkolb can't do it anymore - Tom stops working after 2km, Lotto guys stop working, Sagan is alone, gap grows - Sagan drops everybody besides stybar and catches some members from the front group - no one works, previous group joins in without cooperation - Previous group with GVA and Lotto yellow also join in, pointless attacks without cooperation - expected results.

Tom could do that pathetic dig on the final because he did nothing more in the last 20 KM. Same for GVA.

A Sagan on form can easily take back 20 seconds on the Muur and another 5-10 seconds in the descent. He didn't have it today - he is tired and not at his best anymore. That's no shame. GVA had an even worse day - he only came back with the Lotto-Jumbo group.

So, Sagan shouldn't complain about the others in his group not riding fast enough.
What he could lament about:
- weak team
- long season
- his own tactical omission of not shadowing Terpstra closer (Terpstra was the danger man)

Of the others in his group, only Dumoulin had some power. The Lotto's already proved to be weaker, so their pulls would never be strong, and who else was there? Stybar and the Movistars were also not going to work. Sagan's words were the result of disappointment immediately after the race, but do not reflect what actually happened (and I'm guessing he will realise that later). From your account of the race - who at which point should've worked harder? Except for Dumoulin, perhaps, I see no-one.

 

[MacBAir]

Sagan fans are pathetic Calimeros. Everybody against him, booh.

Have you seen Plumelec or Quebec? At least three teams were working for him, just because he's a good wheelying showman. He got World Champion because Boasson Hagen favoured his attack.

Would you think Stybar would collaborate with Sagan with Terpstra in front? Stybar is good friend with him, though.

The only rider in the peloton I've seen exasperated by Sagan's attitude was Cancellara. Sad he retires.

Have to agree; also I hate the moaning and excuses that a successful rider and sprinter is expected to work more. Sagan himself was whining about it in the interview after the race. And of course, when he finished 2nd in Quebec, there's barely a word about Majka performing a super-human domestique role; absolutely burying himself on the climbs throughout to try to hold the race together for Sagan.

Ettix had 3 or 4 riders contesting today's GC. BMC had 4 or 5 riders contesting today's GC. Sagan was alone 95% of the whole race and lost because of it. That's fine, it is racing. But it is also the reason why he lost.

It only pisses me off because I prefer attacking, aggressive riders. OTOH, aggressive riders are valuable because of wheelsuckers like Stybar and so on.

It was also good to see Sagan absolutely leaving the olympic champion for dead on every single hill before the race being lost. But GVA still managed to make 1 dig at the final, the best thing he did the whole race. :lol:

 

[Tank Engine]

Re: Re:

A Sagan on form can easily take back 20 seconds on the Muur and another 5-10 seconds in the descent. He didn't have it today - he is tired and not at his best anymore. That's no shame. GVA had an even worse day - he only came back with the Lotto-Jumbo group.

So, Sagan shouldn't complain about the others in his group not riding fast enough.
What he could lament about:
- weak team
- long season
- his own tactical omission of not shadowing Terpstra closer (Terpstra was the danger man)

Of the others in his group, only Dumoulin had some power. The Lotto's already proved to be weaker, so their pulls would never be strong, and who else was there? Stybar and the Movistars were also not going to work. Sagan's words were the result of disappointment immediately after the race, but do not reflect what actually happened (and I'm guessing he will realise that later). From your account of the race - who at which point should've worked harder? Except for Dumoulin, perhaps, I see no-one.

Obviously, Terpstra getting away was the key moment. If Sagan had covered that move, either Martin or (more likely) Stybar (who was better on the day) would attack. Either Sagan miscalculated (and even if he had covered Terpstra's attack, then Etixx still had opportunities to ambush him) or he could not follow at that moment. Either way, Sagan would have had to ride at an incredible level to win today.

 

[Bushman]

Sagan fans are pathetic Calimeros. Everybody against him, booh.

Have you seen Plumelec or Quebec? At least three teams were working for him, just because he's a good wheelying showman. He got World Champion because Boasson Hagen favoured his attack.

Would you think Stybar would collaborate with Sagan with Terpstra in front? Stybar is good friend with him, though.

The only rider in the peloton I've seen exasperated by Sagan's attitude was Cancellara. Sad he retires.

No, Sagan became world champion because he DROPPED GREG VAN AVERMAET LIKE A STONE.

Blaming EBH for Greg's defeat really says it all, doesnt it.

 

[May0maniac]

Good to see Terpstra winning, one for the bad guys.

 

[KGB]

Sagan fans are pathetic Calimeros. Everybody against him, booh.

Have you seen Plumelec or Quebec? At least three teams were working for him, just because he's a good wheelying showman. He got World Champion because Boasson Hagen favoured his attack.

Would you think Stybar would collaborate with Sagan with Terpstra in front? Stybar is good friend with him, though.

The only rider in the peloton I've seen exasperated by Sagan's attitude was Cancellara. Sad he retires.

Nope Greg just was not strong enough suck his wheel that day.That's why and that was master piece Sagan tacticaly and very good form combination(Not everyday he could smoke Greg from his wheel).

 

[Tank Engine]

Re: Re:

2015 RVV suggests Terpstra would have worked with Sagan, even if the odds of winning were overwhelmingly against him.

But then, Terpstra probably didn't think that the odds were that much against him. Kristoff had done reasonably well in the 2014 RVV. However, Terpstra probably thought that he had a reasonable chance of dropping him on the final climb and Etixx were not in such a strong position in that race.

Sagan destroyed everybody at RVV this year. With 40km to go today, the peloton was in tatters, BMC and Tinkoff had been decimated and Etixx had numbers and time to work over an isolated Sagan. If Sagan had covered Terpstra's counterattack, Terpstra would have just sat up.

 

[KGB]

Yes exactly.He did right didn't go with Tepstra and stayed with GVA.He was thinking about UCI points first and then about GC and all that he did because he knew he is not super strong today.When Sagan is super strong he always show that to everyone and then he will go with Tepstra or he will definitely try break all.

 

[Mr.White]

For Sagan it's mission accomplished. He's WT leader, and he will likely stay in that place, unless Quintana show some spectacular form and grab a podium in Lombardia.

 

[Echoes]

Nope Greg just was not strong enough suck his wheel that day.

Of course because that day, Sagan sucked wheels all day long while Greg attacked several laps before the last one, as is his racing style. It seems that some are entitled to suck wheels and others are not.

Plumelec, Quebec, Richmond, did Sagan ever show up before the finale those days? Answer is no.

It could happen for Greg to win while sticking in the wheels (Rodez, Tirrno 2015, ...) but these are exceptions. Sagan wins way more often that way. Deal with that.

 

[PremierAndrew]

The greatest find a way to win even with everyone marking them. Even in his two major victories, he wasn't marked too much, with Canc being the most heavily marked at RVV and no individual being truly marked heavily at the worlds. Now let's see how Sagan copes with it. Being the strongest counts for nothing if you don't have the tactics to go with it, and Sagan has already thrown away a MSR with poor tactics

 

[SKSemtex]

I am not surprised Sagan lost today. I would be very surprised if he did not. He missed his chance yesterday. Both BMC and Etixx are experienced enough to let him win here.

Eneco has again showed us that if we want exciting GT racing and GT GC fight till last stage we do not need more of bigger, longer, steeper mountain stages which are easily controlled by one team and their powermeters. Their existence brutally limit the list of GC to 3-6 riders. Sky practically does not have to work on flat and hilly stages and can grant so many stages to breakaway riders as they are no competition. With less mountain stages and more hilly "classic" stages we will have multiply attacks by many teams impossible controlled by one team.

Regarding Sagans post race interview . He was not complaining. He newer was. It was only statement. He knows it will be always like this and he will lose a lot of races in spite being the strongest just because he is the strongest.
So unless he take the pay caut and go to strong team he have to deal with it.

 

[SKSemtex]

Re:

The greatest find a way to win even with everyone marking them. Even in his two major victories, he wasn't marked too much, with Canc being the most heavily marked at RVV and no individual being truly marked heavily at the worlds. Now let's see how Sagan copes with it. Being the strongest counts for nothing if you don't have the tactics to go with it, and Sagan has already thrown away a MSR with poor tactics

He is already "greatest". He has 13 wins this season as a heavily marked man.

 

[BigMac]

Re:

The greatest find a way to win even with everyone marking them. Even in his two major victories, he wasn't marked too much, with Canc being the most heavily marked at RVV and no individual being truly marked heavily at the worlds. Now let's see how Sagan copes with it. Being the strongest counts for nothing if you don't have the tactics to go with it, and Sagan has already thrown away a MSR with poor tactics

This is one hell of a cliché. And it's just not true.

 

[KGB]

Nope Greg just was not strong enough suck his wheel that day.

Of course because that day, Sagan sucked wheels all day long while Greg attacked several laps before the last one, as is his racing style. It seems that some are entitled to suck wheels and others are not.

Plumelec, Quebec, Richmond, did Sagan ever show up before the finale those days? Answer is no.

It could happen for Greg to win while sticking in the wheels (Rodez, Tirrno 2015, ...) but these are exceptions. Sagan wins way more often that way. Deal with that.

That's exactly what Sagan should do more often and not show how strong he is.Just attack when is right moment be smart like Kwiatkowsky and Cancellara(about last three-four years?) and after that not only Greg will not have any chance.Shame for Sagan and gift for you and Greg he is most of the time doing opposite but another hand this is Sagan way which is more exiting for public so be happy otherwise you will be so grumpy every single race where is Sagan.