2016 Vuelta, stage 4: Betanzos > San Andrés de Teixido

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Re: Re:

gregrowlerson said:
silvergrenade said:
dacooley said:
when one loves a few riders, hates all other cycling superstars and herewith pretends to have some sort of objectivity, it always looks pretty comical.
This.
I am probably anti Valverde if anything, but lol at the claim that his recovery isn't great and doesn't compare to Contador, Froome and Nibali. Valverde's recovery is BETTER than those guys. The only reason why he hasn't won the GT's that they have is because his absolute top climbing level (on high mountains) isn't quite as good as their's.
I agree with more or less everything in this post. I am not the biggest Alejandro fan by any means, but we are very lucky to be able to see him race. He is a phenomenal rider.
 
Re: Re:

dacooley said:
silvergrenade said:
dacooley said:
when one loves a few riders, hates all other cycling superstars and herewith pretends to have some sort of objectivity, it always looks pretty comical.
This.
disliking valverde froome or anyone else is OK, but trying to convince everyone that they are pathetic riders (when both of them are absolutely amazing riders) and imposing one's view on other forum members is humorous. :p
Valverde isn't one of the most liked riders and never really has been but you can't deny that his record is impressive. But of course everything is relative. Wait until Gerrans wins another race and you will see a lot of mouth foam ! While he isn't winning no one talks about him and that's probably the best praise he can hope for at the moment. Fans seemed to lighten up a bit on Froome in the Tour this year maybe because he was the only one of the favourites animating the race for the most part.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
Hugo Koblet said:
El Pistolero said:
CheckMyPecs said:
Valv.Piti said:
Just about the most versatile GC-rider in the world :eek:
Yeah.

He can sprint from 200 m.
He can sprint from 201 m.
He can sprint from 199 m... :eek:
Yeah, I never understood where people got this idea from that he's so versatile.

He can climb and sprint well. Since climbers are usually notoriously bad at sprinting someone like Valverde really stands out and can win a lot of races by simply surviving the hills/climbs. That's it basically.

Vincenzo Nibali, for example, is better at climbing, descending, cobbles and time trials. But because he lacks a sprint it's harder for him to win the same amount of races. We saw at the Olympic Road Race who was the better one of the two though. A shame he crashed, but he was risking everything for gold, not bronze or silver (like Valverde would have done).

Is Boonen versatile because he can "only" sprint and ride over cobbles really well? I've seen many people call Boonen one-dimensional.
I don't agree with that. Valverde is at least on par and probably slightly better at TT'ing than Nibali.
Nibali has pretty much beaten him every single time in a Grand Tour time trial when they were competing together. It's 9-3 in Nibali's favour and we all know Nibali wasn't competing for GC at this year's Tour (he was preparing himself for the Olympics). So it actually is 9-1. I don't know where people get this idea from that Valverde is a great time trial specialist. He's average. * = winner

Tour de France 2008:

Stage 4 (ITT):
Nibali: 9th*
Valverde: 22th

Stage 20 (ITT):

Nibali: 47th
Valverde: 34th*

Tour de France 2012:

Prologue:
Nibali: 14th*
Valverde: 116th

Stage 9 (ITT):
Nibali: 8th*
Valverde: 34th

Stage 19 (ITT):
Nibali: 16th*
Valverde: 113th

Vuelta a Espana 2013:

Stage 11 (ITT):
Nibali: 4th*
Valverde: 7th

Tour de France 2014:

Stage 20 (ITT):
Nibali: 4th*
Valverde: 28th

Tour de France 2015:

Stage 1 (ITT):
Nibali: 22th*
Valverde: 43th

Giro d'Italia 2016:

Stage 1 (ITT):
Nibali: 16th*
Valverde: 23th

Stage 19 (ITT):
Nibali: 19th* ???
Valverde: 22th ???


Tour de France 2016:

Stage 13 (ITT):
Nibali: 25th
Valverde: 15th*

Stage 18 (ITT):
Nibali: 15th
Valverde: 12th*
Where did you get this? Stage 19 wasn't a TT, stage 15 was, and Valverde finished 3rd with Nibali in 25th. Still, I agree that Nibali is the better time trialist, although Valverde can be very competitive over shorter distances. Regardless, the fact is competing with the best for a 5th consecutive GT proves that he has a great recovery. In fact, I just checked back his results of the last couple of years and the only times he didn't finish at least top 10 in GC as far back as 2012 were the Tour 2012 (20th) and Dubai Tour 2014 (27th). Also, the only times he didn't finish at least top 30 in a one day race (also back to 2012) were Flèche Wallonne 2012 (46th), Roma Maxima 2013 (32nd), E3 Harelbeke 2014 (63rd), Dwars Door Vlaanderen 2014 (36th) and some smaller races that ended in a sprint. To be that competitive all year round, you just have to have great recovery. I'm not a big Valverde fan, but I have huge respect for his ability to perform throughout the season.
 
I don't really see how Nibali being a marginally better TT'er affects Valverdes absolute TT ability. I do think it's necessary to distinguish between base level and recovery. Valverde's recovery in GT's isn't extroardinary. His base level is.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
Hugo Koblet said:
El Pistolero said:
CheckMyPecs said:
Valv.Piti said:
Just about the most versatile GC-rider in the world :eek:
Yeah.

He can sprint from 200 m.
He can sprint from 201 m.
He can sprint from 199 m... :eek:
Yeah, I never understood where people got this idea from that he's so versatile.

He can climb and sprint well. Since climbers are usually notoriously bad at sprinting someone like Valverde really stands out and can win a lot of races by simply surviving the hills/climbs. That's it basically.

Vincenzo Nibali, for example, is better at climbing, descending, cobbles and time trials. But because he lacks a sprint it's harder for him to win the same amount of races. We saw at the Olympic Road Race who was the better one of the two though. A shame he crashed, but he was risking everything for gold, not bronze or silver (like Valverde would have done).

Is Boonen versatile because he can "only" sprint and ride over cobbles really well? I've seen many people call Boonen one-dimensional.
I don't agree with that. Valverde is at least on par and probably slightly better at TT'ing than Nibali.
Nibali has pretty much beaten him every single time in a Grand Tour time trial when they were competing together. It's 9-3 in Nibali's favour and we all know Nibali wasn't competing for GC at this year's Tour (he was preparing himself for the Olympics). So it actually is 9-1. I don't know where people get this idea from that Valverde is a great time trial specialist. He's average. * = winner

Tour de France 2008:

Stage 4 (ITT):
Nibali: 9th*
Valverde: 22th

Stage 20 (ITT):

Nibali: 47th
Valverde: 34th*

Tour de France 2012:

Prologue:
Nibali: 14th*
Valverde: 116th

Stage 9 (ITT):
Nibali: 8th*
Valverde: 34th

Stage 19 (ITT):
Nibali: 16th*
Valverde: 113th

Vuelta a Espana 2013:

Stage 11 (ITT):
Nibali: 4th*
Valverde: 7th

Tour de France 2014:

Stage 20 (ITT):
Nibali: 4th*
Valverde: 28th

Tour de France 2015:

Stage 1 (ITT):
Nibali: 22th*
Valverde: 43th

Giro d'Italia 2016:

Stage 1 (ITT):
Nibali: 16th*
Valverde: 23th

Stage 19 (ITT):
Nibali: 19th*
Valverde: 22th

Tour de France 2016:

Stage 13 (ITT):
Nibali: 25th
Valverde: 15th*

Stage 18 (ITT):
Nibali: 15th
Valverde: 12th*
Since we all know that GT's aren't everything there is to cycling, I decided to crunch some numbers.

Number of ITT's done the last three seasons:
Valverde: 17
Nibali: 16

Number of ITT's done at WT-level the last three seasons:
Valverde: 12
Nibali: 14

Average placing in ITT's done the last three seasons:
Valverde: 16,8
Nibali: 17,4

Average plaing in ITT's done at WT-level the last three seasons:
Valverde: 21,1
Nibali: 17,6

Average time loss to winner pr. ITT done the last three seasons:
Valverde: 67 seconds
Nibali: 66 seconds

Average time loss to winner pr. ITT done at WT-level the last three seasons:
Valverde: 88 seconds
Nibali: 67 seconds

Seconds/km loss to winner in ITT's done the last three seasons:
Valverde: 2,66 seconds
Nibali: 3,53 seconds

Seconds/km loss to winner in ITT's done at WT-level the last three seasons:
Valverde: 3,50 seconds
Nibali: 3,59 seconds

This provides a much broader picture of their ITT-abilities and it comes up much closer than the picture you painted. You can draw your own conclusion as to who's the better time trialist of the two. I'd call it pretty much even.
 
TTs they did against each other since Valverde returned from his ban in 2012:


TTTs are blacked out. MTTs are marked with a red dot. TTs where they both rode for GC is marked with green (I assume Valverde didn't enter the 2012 Tour with GC in mind, but that is debatable).

Valverde only beat Nibali in the Tour this year and the MTT in the Giro.

edit: perhaps Tirreno this year should have had a green dot as well.
 
Re:

PremierAndrew said:
You can ignore the 2012 Tour ITTs, as Nibali was fighting for GC while Valverde was cruising around France stage hunting and training for the Vuelta later that year
If that is a response to me, I think you misunderstood it, as I very clearly have not put a green dot at those TTs.
 
I think the best comparison is the Vuelta Stage 11 over long TTs, as it's the one where they both probably had the most similar form with which we have seen them against each other, Nibali trying the Giro-Vuelta double and Valverde coming off a disappointing Tour in which he didn't go that deep. Still, Nibali was in better form. Valverde was poor in 2014, so it's not fair on him to use that one. The Giro one this year was too wet and technical.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Re:

PremierAndrew said:
You can ignore the 2012 Tour ITTs, as Nibali was fighting for GC while Valverde was cruising around France stage hunting and training for the Vuelta later that year
He didn't ride for GC because his form wasn't good enough, not because he had other goals.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
PremierAndrew said:
You can ignore the 2012 Tour ITTs, as Nibali was fighting for GC while Valverde was cruising around France stage hunting and training for the Vuelta later that year
He didn't ride for GC because his form wasn't good enough, not because he had other goals.
Better excuse. That was the year after his ban. He was trying to get back to form during the Tour.
 
Jul 16, 2010
17,463
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Re: Re:

Escarabajo said:
El Pistolero said:
PremierAndrew said:
You can ignore the 2012 Tour ITTs, as Nibali was fighting for GC while Valverde was cruising around France stage hunting and training for the Vuelta later that year
He didn't ride for GC because his form wasn't good enough, not because he had other goals.
Better excuse. That was the year after his ban. He was trying to get back to form during the Tour.
He was banned for a reason, go to the clinic.
 

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