2017 Liège-Bastogne-Liège - April 23rd - 258k

[spiritualride]

Re:

I thought it was an okay race but in a way I feel bad for all who are saying it was a really good race... standards are set low here. It's a monument... and all the favorites waited until the last 500 meters. If that's a great race then what is a bad one? Why not get rid of the first 230km if all that matters to us is the last 1km ? Might as well make bike races a half hour long if that's what we're looking for.

Tweak the route a bit... make the last 80-30km more difficult and the last 30km easier and the race will (on average) be significantly better IMO.

Route is fine, riders just need to grow some balls.

So keep the route this way and just wait for ball growth? That doesn't sound like a plan for great racing.

 

[Asero831]

Re: Re:

I thought it was an okay race but in a way I feel bad for all who are saying it was a really good race... standards are set low here. It's a monument... and all the favorites waited until the last 500 meters. If that's a great race then what is a bad one? Why not get rid of the first 230km if all that matters to us is the last 1km ? Might as well make bike races a half hour long if that's what we're looking for.

Tweak the route a bit... make the last 80-30km more difficult and the last 30km easier and the race will (on average) be significantly better IMO.

Route is fine, riders just need to grow some balls.

So keep the route this way and just wait for ball growth? That doesn't sound like a plan for great racing.

Were you not entertained why Simon Gerrans attacked with more that 70kms left and relayed for almost 5 kms?

 

[Asero831]

Most podium finishes in Ardennes classics:

Valverde: 16*
Merckx: 15
Boogerd: 11
Verbeeck: 11
Rebellin: 11
Criquielion: 10
Argentin: 9

 

[Asero831]

Re:

Total borefest. I'm glad I didn’t waste too much time and watched only the last 30k or so. While there were some meaningless attacks, the outcome was very predictable and it was clear the finish will be a reduced field bunch sprint.

When you have a 37 year old convicted doper is still winning almost every hilly race, you know there is something really wrong with the course or cycling in general. Don’t want to turn in it into a clinic post, but the long term benefits of juicing are just impossible to overcome by the new generation.

you missed the highlight of the race. Gerrans attacked with 75km to go and put his nose in the wind. Last time he puts his face in the wind it created a crash

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

I didn't watch the race (I wasn't in the right mood) but reading th comments it was probably nearly as bad as the last LBL that Valverde won (nothing against him, he played it perfectly, but that was just a horrible race).

How can you comment in this thread without watching the race - Watch the race and then comment as much as you like - Finally don't take much notice of the comments in this thread as posters are never happy - At the end of the day it was a solid race and no surprise the three favorites came 1,2 and 3 - That says something.

Could be Scarponi's death no? And anyone is free to post, had they, or not, seen the race.

I strongly disagree - I never post in race threads without watching the race - What could I add to the thread ? - It's a problem across many sporting forums.

Given the circumstances, your (and Fernandez) callous lack of pitty (or rahter pietas) speaks volumes about peurile character. Chapeau.

 

[Fernandez]

Re: Re:

I didn't watch the race (I wasn't in the right mood) but reading th comments it was probably nearly as bad as the last LBL that Valverde won (nothing against him, he played it perfectly, but that was just a horrible race).

How can you comment in this thread without watching the race - Watch the race and then comment as much as you like - Finally don't take much notice of the comments in this thread as posters are never happy - At the end of the day it was a solid race and no surprise the three favorites came 1,2 and 3 - That says something.

Could be Scarponi's death no? And anyone is free to post, had they, or not, seen the race.

I strongly disagree - I never post in race threads without watching the race - What could I add to the thread ? - It's a problem across many sporting forums.

Given the circumstances, your (and Fernandez) callous lack of pitty (or rahter pietas) speaks volumes about peurile character. Chapeau.

Dont make me laugh. His post has nothing to be with Scarponi, I cheered it because he said that people are never happy with any results in the races, and at the end the favourites riders got the podium. So go to h... . The problem is in your mind that you though we were disrespecting Scarponis death.

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

I think a good route change would be to put another very hard climb immediately before or after La Redoute. Usually on La Redoute, and again this year, we see some quasi-promising attacks and a lot of splits in the peloton but in the long easy part between La Redoute and Roche aux Faucons. I think the section around La Redoute should be made significantly harder, in this way there is more chance of something significant happening there and La Redoute is restored somewhat in honour because it would be part of a more significant section of the race again.

I think a good candidate in order to beef up that part of the race could be Chambralles. The foot of Chambralles is ~7km away from the top of La Redoute and these kms include a decent and some small roads where it is difficult to organize a chase. Chambralles is 1,9km at 8,2%, but it is very irregular (steepest 100m is 16%, see http://www.klimtijd.nl/beklimming/chambrelles). You could maybe compare this to the section ending with the Keutenberg in AGR. A few steep climbs and some narrow roads that create the possibility for attacks and make chasing difficult, except Redoute and Chambralles are much more difficult.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Dont make me laugh. His post has nothing to be with Scarponi, I cheered it because he said that people are never happy with any results in the races, and at the end the favourites riders got the podium. So go to h... . The problem is in your mind that you though we were disrespecting Scarponis death.

Not use to such blockheads on this thread, but you've reminded me how insidious they can be around here. No yaco's response to Mayomaniac distress, either because of callousness or stupidity (though his follow up response points to the former), showed poor form either way. Then he criticized him, which was totally lame.

Yours doesn't even register on the amoeba chart.

 

[Netserk]

How would you get from there to Roche aux Faucons (or just Liège in general)? Sure it'd be a hard part, but it'd just be even further from the finish, no?

 

[Fernandez]

Re: Re:

Dont make me laugh. His post has nothing to be with Scarponi, I cheered it because he said that people are never happy with any results in the races, and at the end the favourites riders got the podium. So go to h... . The problem is in your mind that you though we were disrespecting Scarponis death.

Not use to such blockheads on this thread, but you've reminded me how insidious they can be around here. No yaco's response to Mayomaniac distress, either because of callousness or stupidity (though his follow up response points to the former), showed poor form either way. Then he criticized him, which was totally lame.

Yours doesn't even register on the amoeba chart.

Thats fine, I see. You are not in your right. Good luck with life.

 

[mthom]

Re:

Hard to see past Bala. If they want to beat Valverde, they'll have to surprise him from further out than Côte de Saint-Nicolas or the final climb in Ans. Some of the riders are happy with getting 4th or 8th.

Gilbert is clearly missing.

Yes it would have been nice to have Gilbert in race. Perhaps him and Kwiat could have made it more of a strongmans race from farther out. Watching that wheelsuck Valverde continually win with no panache is like eating soggy bread

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

Re:

How would you get from there to Roche aux Faucons (or just Liège in general)? Sure it'd be a hard part, but it'd just be even further from the finish, no?

After Chambralles you can put this
http://www.klimtijd.nl/beklimming/cote-de-fraiture

From the top of that to Roche-aux-Faucons would be about 15km, so quite similar to what you have between La Redoute and Roche-aux-Faucons now. I think this sections (whether it is from Redoute, or from my proposed alternative route) could be made better by using some smaller roads as well. The chaos that still often arises on la Redoute has more potential to create an interesting move if they keep in some more narrow twisty roads. The plateau does have some narrower twisty roads that would make chasing harder.

Also, between Cote de Fraiture and Roche-aux-Faucons you can put in this, (although you'd have to miss the first ~1,5km of false flat). It would make the section a bit longer though, but you can have narrow twisty roads, this climb and less than 20km between Cote de Fraiture and Roche-aux-Faucons.
http://www.klimtijd.nl/beklimming/cote-de-lince

However, personally, I don't like Roche-aux-Faucons very much. I'd maybe make a finale of something like La Redoute-> Chambralles-> Cote de Fraiture -> Cote de Lince -> Cote de Colonester ->~10km to Liège including the descent

You would have a very difficult section starting from ~50km which should shake things up thoroughly and if it comes together or whatever you still have Colonester to create some final selection. I mean, if you're the best on the hills but can't win the sprint, Colonester would enable you to win without needing some crazy 30km solo.

This would be just over 50km, have these climbs, and the flat parts would have more narrow and twisty roads
http://www.klimtijd.nl/beklimming/redoute
http://www.klimtijd.nl/beklimming/chambrelles
http://www.klimtijd.nl/beklimming/cote-de-fraiture
http://www.klimtijd.nl/beklimming/cote-de-lince (again, without the first ~1,5km)
http://www.klimtijd.nl/beklimming/cote-de-colonster

 

[No_Balls]

Re:

It's not about the rider, it's about the way you win. Whining for the sake of whining just because someone criticizes the way your favorite rider won leads nowhere.

Not sure why Valverde shouldnt play to his strenght.

Sure, its not a funny race to look at but i mean if i cheered for some of the other deadweight in the peloton i would be damn furious at them for sitting in the peloton in like 259 km. They are serving it on the silverplatter to him and its absolutely ridicoulus.

How on earth can you justify what a lot of the other riders did yesterday which was nothing,

 

[Escarabajo]

As I said, there is nothing wrong with the parcours. Something I want to add about the outcome of the FW and the LBL is why teams work with Movistar to catch any attackers??? It is Movistar race to lose. Not Orica, or Quickstep or Sky. If they don't know it then they will look silly at the end of the race.

For example, Froome is the rider to beat at the Tour. So it is his team's responsibility to pursue any danger attack on Froome. Not Movistar not BMC or Trek. The same thing can be said about Movistar at the Giro. Don't inflate your team's ego trying to help your enemy pursue any attackers. You will look silly.

In a way this was what happened with Sagan in the cobbles classics. He was the man to beat. He made it worse by not having a good team. But helping Movistar, really? I saw Orica helping Movistar at FW late in the race. I guess they will aiming at just scoring points!

My 2 cents...

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

I didn't watch the race (I wasn't in the right mood) but reading th comments it was probably nearly as bad as the last LBL that Valverde won (nothing against him, he played it perfectly, but that was just a horrible race).

How can you comment in this thread without watching the race - Watch the race and then comment as much as you like - Finally don't take much notice of the comments in this thread as posters are never happy - At the end of the day it was a solid race and no surprise the three favorites came 1,2 and 3 - That says something.

Could be Scarponi's death no? And anyone is free to post, had they, or not, seen the race.

I strongly disagree - I never post in race threads without watching the race - What could I add to the thread ? - It's a problem across many sporting forums.

Given the circumstances, your (and Fernandez) callous lack of pitty (or rahter pietas) speaks volumes about peurile character. Chapeau.

The man was right, he was commenting about how the race was boring and he didn't even watched! I know why he didn't watched the race, but that's not the issue here. There was no lack of pity (pietas) at all!

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Please don't blame the parcours. LBL is fine the way it is. Again, Valverde is very good.

It was a solid race - Losing the cobbled climb which split the peleton in 2016, could have made a difference in 2017 - But ultimately the three favorites finished on the podium - That means something.

The hardest classic had 30 riders within half a minute of each other, one slightly significant move was made in the last 20km which never got over 10 seconds, and the deciding moves all happened in the 1'30" of the race

That means something.

The problem with the race was the peleton let the breakaway have too much rope - Then the peleton needs to ride harder to bring back the break - Hence you are riding the last 100kms at a higher tempo which makes it difficult to break from the peleton - Riders tried and tried in the last 50kms but the speed of the peleton was too high.

 

[yaco]

All this grief about the parcours - The cobbled climb 6km from the finish in 2016 sorted out the peleton - Only four riders in the peleton.

 

[fauniera]

Re: Re:

However, personally, I don't like Roche-aux-Faucons very much. I'd maybe make a finale of something like La Redoute-> Chambralles-> Cote de Fraiture -> Cote de Lince -> Cote de Colonester ->~10km to Liège including the descent.

This would result in a massive bunch sprint. You are putting Redoute further and further away from the finish and all the climbs between Redoute and Liege are fairly easy.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

All this grief about the parcours - The cobbled climb 6km from the finish in 2016 sorted out the peleton - Only four riders in the peleton.

Yeah that climb was crucial but the opinion of many, me included, is that the race was still relatively boring since nothing happened before the cobbled climb. Especially the Saint Nicolas was even more boring than usually since everyone waited for the last ramp cobbled.

 

[Laplaz]

https://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/hd/117011

This could be an option, but I don't think they will listen to me
I added some new though climbs, they start with 90km to go and should eliminate some "Gerro-Style-Riders", because there isn't really flat terrain left.
The hardest will be the Col de Targnon (2.1 Km at 12.6%).

These are the climbs:
Côte de la Roche en Ardenne (440 m, 3.5 Km at 5.7%, Km 94.3)
Chemin de Wanne (526 m, 3.2 Km at 5.1%, Km 173.6)
Mouhipre (493 m, 2.0 Km at 8.0%, Km 180.1)
Côte de Bellaire (492 m, 3.0 Km at 7.0%, Km 190.2)
Col de Targnon (493 m, 2.1 Km at 12.6%, Km 206.3)
Côte de Nonceveux (349 m, 2.0 Km at 9.2%, Km 223.3)
Côte de la Redoute (292 m, 1.8 Km at 8.9%, Km 234.5)
Côte de la Roche aux Faucons (194 m, 1.1 Km at 10.2%, Km 250.5)

The finish is flat and will come 12.5 km after Roche aux Faucons, so we should get action way before.

 

[fauniera]

I would try this:

1. Get rid of Ans and St. Nicolas.
2. Return of Stockeu and Haute Levée (of course).
3. From Redoute this:

The climb at km 9 is the last part of Côte de Lincé. The steep short hill at km 15 is Rue du Tige. Then there is the double climb of Roche aux Faucons starting at km 20 (southern approach instead of th usual one from the east). The last climb is the second half of Heid de Mael at km 28. The finish is in the city center. I do believe that Roche aux Faucons should be the key for this race.

 

[Netserk]

Laplaz, I don't think Liège is quite ready for sterrato

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

Re: Re:

However, personally, I don't like Roche-aux-Faucons very much. I'd maybe make a finale of something like La Redoute-> Chambralles-> Cote de Fraiture -> Cote de Lince -> Cote de Colonester ->~10km to Liège including the descent.

This would result in a massive bunch sprint. You are putting Redoute further and further away from the finish and all the climbs between Redoute and Liege are fairly easy.

Okay, in this finale Redoute would be a bit further out compared to now, but the difficult section (starting with Redoute) would be similarly far away from Liege as the difficult section in AGR was away from the finish this year. Furthermore, Chambralles and Cote de Fraiture aren't easy either. Chambralles is 1,9km with an average of 8,2% and very irregular, with several parts >10% (again, steepest 100m is 16%!). Fraiture is a bit easier, but it still has 600m @ 10% in there. These three climbs come within 20km and only have small twisty false flat roads and descent between them. It will be 20km of continuously up and down several stretches of 10% or more, small twisty roads and descents.

After that there is still 30km, but it is mostly up and down on narrow twisty roads and it still has two climbs (admittedly not the most difficult). You shouldn't underestimate the power of narrow roads and turns in races. They make organizing a chase much more difficult. Actually, when put this on a map, I also put in the Rue du Tige which you also got, but I couldn't find a profile of it.

But yeah, if you're not convinced, you can have roughly the same only replace Colonster with Roche-aux-Faucons and a small climb in Liège or something. You would have the same combo of Redoute-Chambralles-Fraiture at a similar distance from the finish.

 

[May0maniac]

From what I've hear the contract for the finish in Ans expires after 2018, but no idea if ASO are willing to change things up.

 

[fauniera]

Re: Re:

But yeah, if you're not convinced, you can have roughly the same only replace Colonster with Roche-aux-Faucons

I would definitely do that. Colonster is terrible.