2017 Volta Ciclista a Catalunya, March 20-26, WT

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Even with a 15km TTT you could get gaps of over a minute between the best and worst teams. A rider like Bardet would be far behind and forced to attack. With a 40km TTT, the worst teams will lose 3 minutes at best, 5 or more at worst. Even the good but not great teams could lose one or two minutes. That kills the race.

Actually it makes the race great.

Yeah, if any of the other stages allowed for GC action further out...

Well all stages are at a minimum lumpy, so there's that. 2015 saw some great racing across many such stages, we could definitely see that again.

Edit: I don't have a problem with organisers trying something completely different out from time to time as long as it isn't the Hammer Series or Paris-Nice 2014. All for it.

 

[Valv.Piti]

BET365
Valverde @ 3,75
Froome @ 4,33
Thomas @ 8,00
Contador @ 8,00
TJ @ 9,00
Landa @ 12,00

 

[Mr.White]

Tomorrow might be interesting, I think Valverde will go aggressive on the main climb with his team to shrink the front group as much as possible. And if Contador spots, lets say Froome in trouble (cause he didn't raced quite long), it's going to be carnage

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

Tomorrow might be interesting, I think Valverde will go aggressive on the main climb with his team to shrink the front group as much as possible. And if Contador spots, lets say Froome in trouble (cause he didn't raced quite long), it's going to be carnage

I don't think so, there's a hard TTT tomorrow, so Movistar will try to conserve energy I'd say.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Even with a 15km TTT you could get gaps of over a minute between the best and worst teams. A rider like Bardet would be far behind and forced to attack. With a 40km TTT, the worst teams will lose 3 minutes at best, 5 or more at worst. Even the good but not great teams could lose one or two minutes. That kills the race.

Actually it makes the race great.

Yeah, if any of the other stages allowed for GC action further out...

Bavarianrider sees something that would make Tony Martin more likely to win a stage race and says "this would make the race great!"

Such a long TTT limits the potential winners of the race to 3 or 4 teams which means 3 or 4 riders with the rest desperately trying to make up 3 minutes on the one hard mountain in the race or giving up altogether and going for a stage win. I'm sure a race is more interesting when there are around 10-15 riders still with a chance, battling it out.
Large gaps can make for a very interesting race when they're not artificially created and there's actually terrain to make up time. As an example of how it does work - look no further than Paris-Nice a week ago.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Smaller teams? As far as I know, all WT teams are the same size.

I think it is unfair to blame teams that do spend more time TTT training or do hire a good time trialist for having an advantage in some race.

So if some teams sucks in TTT, it is only their fault and their riders do not deserve to win these type of races.

Heck, its almost like whining that Contador cant win Paris-Roubaix because there are cobbles in that race and only fair race would be to remove those cobble sections.

The stronger TTT teams would still have an advantage with a 15km TTT. The race needs to be balanced.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Tomorrow might be interesting, I think Valverde will go aggressive on the main climb with his team to shrink the front group as much as possible. And if Contador spots, lets say Froome in trouble (cause he didn't raced quite long), it's going to be carnage

I don't think anything will happen at all. It's too far out IMO.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I think there is terrain to actually make time up. I see a good and varied route.

We can all agree its a weird design and probably not for the better of the race, but there's only 4-5 riders who realistically can win the race anyway. We can also argue its unfair and that it should be 'punishment' enough to ride on a bad team on road stages and so on, but sometimes organisers choose to go completely left field. Funnily enough another Spanish stage race did the same this year in Valenciana. Quintana's solution therefore was to attack when they literally hit the climb - otherwise he would play it conservatively and stroll away on the last kilometer or so.

Anyways, its obvious what your incitament for criticising, rightfully so I must add, the route. And yes, it must be a little frustrating as a fan, but Trek doesn't have thad bad of a team and could easily find themself in the top-3.

 

[Red Rick]

Those climbs aren't anywhere near hard enough to do anything but have fellow climbers laughing at your wheel or get a gap of 8 seconds and be reeled in in another 15 seconds.

 

[Singer01]

Why doesn't everyone calm the f down and wait and see what the ttt does to the race? I wasn't expecting paris-nice to be amazing, but it was the finest stage race of the last 5 years.

 

[del1962]

Would have been great if the Time Trial where a 40k ITT.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

Would have been great if the Time Trial where a 40k ITT.

Would it be more fair? Yes.
Would it be balanced? Hell naw

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

Why doesn't everyone calm the f down and wait and see what the ttt does to the race? I wasn't expecting paris-nice to be amazing, but it was the finest stage race of the last 5 years.

Indeed, some people are going into overdrive because it doesn't necessarily fit their favourite rider.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Would have been great if the Time Trial where a 40k ITT.

Would it be more fair? Yes.
Would it be balanced? Hell naw

Would it be awesome?

Hell yes.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

I think there is terrain to actually make time up. I see a good and varied route.

Valverde is the favorite to win on 5 out of 6 stages in line, that pretty much says it all lol.
The only reasonable opportunity to gain time is stage 5. On all other stages either the climbs are too easy or too far out.

We can all agree its a weird design and probably not for the better of the race, but there's only 4-5 riders who realistically can win the race anyway. We can also argue its unfair and that it should be 'punishment' enough to ride on a bad team on road stages and so on, but sometimes organisers choose to go completely left field. Funnily enough another Spanish stage race did the same this year in Valenciana. Quintana's solution therefore was to attack when they literally hit the climb - otherwise he would play it conservatively and stroll away on the last kilometer or so.

No without the TTT I could name at least 15 riders that could win the race and even more if we consider those that could gain time by sneaking away when the big guys are looking at each other. Of course in the end it always comes down to a handful of riders battling it out but that is a natural selection based on form. With this TTT there is an artificial selection and that number of 15 is brought down to 3-4. Then the natural selection takes place and we may be left with only one rider head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of time. Catalunya is always won by seconds, it is undesirable to include a stage in which 3 or 4 GC contenders are guaranteed to gain minutes on most others thanks to their superior teams .

Anyways, its obvious what your incitament for criticising, rightfully so I must add, the route. And yes, it must be a little frustrating as a fan, but Trek doesn't have thad bad of a team and could easily find themself in the top-3.

I have a love-hate relationship with TTTs, I love to watch them but the image of Samu leading his Carrots to last place at the TDF still haunts me in my nightmares. I don't want to see a potentially good race ruined by such an arbitrary event.
I see many non-Contador fans complaining about the TTT as well so I think you're being unfair by suggesting I dislike it only because I believe it will hurt Contador's chances. We could turn that argument right around and say you are only such a big supporter of this TTT because it will increase Valverde's chances immensely. Let's not go there, yes?
Regarding Trek I think they will do a good TTT by their standards and Contador will be in a similar position as in Paris-Nice after the 1st stage, around 1 minute behind the fastest. The difference being: in Paris-Nice there was terrain to make up that time although he did fall just short in the end. During Paris-Nice I did not believe he could make up all that lost time but I acknowledged there were opportunities. Can't say I see many opportunities here.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Why doesn't everyone calm the f down and wait and see what the ttt does to the race? I wasn't expecting paris-nice to be amazing, but it was the finest stage race of the last 5 years.

Paris-Nice had a great parcours with a little bit of everything. Let's not compare it to this race :lol:

 

[Jancouver]

Re: Re:

Smaller teams? As far as I know, all WT teams are the same size.

I think it is unfair to blame teams that do spend more time TTT training or do hire a good time trialist for having an advantage in some race.

So if some teams sucks in TTT, it is only their fault and their riders do not deserve to win these type of races.

Heck, its almost like whining that Contador cant win Paris-Roubaix because there are cobbles in that race and only fair race would be to remove those cobble sections.

The stronger TTT teams would still have an advantage with a 15km TTT. The race needs to be balanced.

Thats exactly what is wrong with today's stage racing. Too many "balanced" boring races. Just look at the TdF. It is so balanced that there is no room for anyone to gain any time and then the skyborgs, switch on to the powermeters and burn out 99% of the field by riding like a bunch of robots.

No thanks. Have a good TTT squad to gain a minute or two so the rest of the GC hopefuls has to attack from waaaaay out ... Landis style.

 

[Geraint Too Fast]

Astana to get their first win of the year here.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Would have been great if the Time Trial where a 40k ITT.

Would it be more fair? Yes.
Would it be balanced? Hell naw

Make it 30k on the same terrain as the TTT, add a stage with 2 hard climbs in the final and the finish in the descent, add a medium mountain stage with several short steep climbs in succession and a puncheur finish and voila.
Basically, make it Pais Vasco :lol:

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Smaller teams? As far as I know, all WT teams are the same size.

I think it is unfair to blame teams that do spend more time TTT training or do hire a good time trialist for having an advantage in some race.

So if some teams sucks in TTT, it is only their fault and their riders do not deserve to win these type of races.

Heck, its almost like whining that Contador cant win Paris-Roubaix because there are cobbles in that race and only fair race would be to remove those cobble sections.

The stronger TTT teams would still have an advantage with a 15km TTT. The race needs to be balanced.

Thats exactly what is wrong with today's stage racing. Too many "balanced" boring races. Just look at the TdF. It is so balanced that there is no room for anyone to gain any time and then the skyborgs, switch on to the powermeters and burn out 99% of the field by riding like a bunch of robots.

No thanks. Have a good TTT squad to gain a minute or two so the rest of the GC hopefuls has to attack from waaaaay out ... Landis style.

This isn't a GT, lol, and there isn't terrain to attack Landis style. A gap of 20 seconds would be enough to make most riders desperate on a parcours like this. 1-3 minutes is overkill. They'll be aiming for stages instead.
You promote exciting racing by giving the riders a parcours they can work with to create gaps, not by artificially creating insurmountable gaps.

 

[Jancouver]

Re: Re:

Smaller as in less rich.

Tirreno-Adriatico TTT

3. FDJ (not exactly a rich team)
17. Katusha (they got money as far as I know)
18. SKY ... even the richest team has no equipment advantage

... therefore, team budget is unrelated to their TTT results. Its all about how they choose to spend it. Look at Orica, they started with modest budget, and yet, they were always able to target TTT. Why? Because they chose to invest in TTT training and riders.

So all this "richer team have advantage" is just a bunch of nonsense.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I've got an idea, let's sell a headstart of 3, 2 and 1 minutes to the riders of the three highest bidders. The others will be forced to attack so we'll have exciting racing. How do I contact Velon? We could let the fans follow the bidding live on an app. :lol:

 

[Valv.Piti]

Maybe you are overestimating Valverde a bit there. I love the credit you are giving him suggestion he is the favourite for 5 out of the 6 road stages, but thats a stretch. I can tell you he aint the favourite for tomorrow. However, I do get your point, but I still like the overall route minus the TTT. Im pretty neutral on that one.

I really can't follow you on the second point though. Say we have a 'normal' route, its a race which only can be won by the usual suspects: Froome, Thomas, Valv, Contador, Bardet and maybe Zakarin/Martin. With the TTT, its basically the same name which pops up, only switch Bardet and Zakarin with, say, Landa and TJ. If anything, I'd argue it gives more riders an opportunity to win overall say if BMC kills it in the TTT.

I am at least suggesting one of the reasons you aren't liking it is because it hurts Contador's chances. I think you know thats true. It would be weird if it wasn't that way IMO.
Also, Im not big supporter of the TTT really. My take on them is that if you are gonna have them, at least make them count. Im sick and tired of 10-15 km TTT in GTs. I think time trials in general are a far better alternative, also in this race, but when you are gonna have them, I like them to be proper tests. Thats why I don't dislike it. As I said on the previous page, I don't have a problem with organisers trying something completely left field as long it doesn't include the Hammer Series, Paris-Nice 2014 and 3 hour stages.

 

[Breh]

51 Martin, Daniel (30)
52 Brambilla, Gianluca (29)
53 Serry, Pieter (28)
54 Cavagna, Rémi (21)
55 De Plus, Laurens (21)
56 Mas, Enric (22)
57 Schachmann, Maximilian (23)
58 Vakoc, Petr (24)

That is one young team.

 

[Vasilis]

I haven't seen a TTT that long in a while, certainly in a week-long stage race. I don't really know what to expect, which makes me excited for this race. Too bad I have exams coming week.