2018 Giro to start in Israel

[MikeTichondrius]

Absolutely disgraceful move to plead for the zionist overlords. Giro can go to hell if they pull this off.

See this is where "political concerns" stops being the whole story.

Please don't pull the racist card.

mods watching...

Murito finish atop the Golgotha..

No seriously, I don't see how it would be feasible to start the Giro so far away from Italy. And yes, politics would be involved, ain't worth it.

Belfast is basically just as far away and they did it in 2014 - hell, it's even closer if you consider they transferred to Apulia for the first italian stage back then.

 

[GenericBoonenFan]

Uh, this is a worse idea then hummus on pizza

 

[Netserk]

Re:

Uh, this is a worse idea then hummus on pizza

That actually sounds quite good :O

 

[Ruby United]

Re: Re:

It's not a race issue, it's a political issue.

I disagree. Chinese athletes don't refuse to compete with Taiwanese at the Olympics or Ukrainians with Russians or Indians with Pakistanis.

The tension is caused by policies, not by race, it definitely is a political issue. You used examples that suited you but no conflict is the same, comparisons are useless and don't explain the nature of the tension.

Anyone saying that the tensions are caused by policies and not race is naive.
Though politics is the primary concerns of all countries involved, the foundamental, underlying issue is the conflict of race.
The predicament is due to the Arabic countries refusing to recognize a Jewish state due to their beliefs.

 

[Ruby United]

Re: Re:

**** that.
Now I don't want Berto to ride the Giro.

Agreed, obviously. I've often been sad to see some of my favourite riders to start in races I think deserve a boycott (Tour of Qatar, Hammer Series, etc.) but I guess they have a job to do regardless of political dilemma's.

What is needed is a global dispute, a bit like there was in the eighties with Apartheid South Africa, when several South African athletes (in tennis, track & field, etc) were kept from international events while others were stripped of their licence for competing in South African events (tennis player Ivan Lendl is the one I have in mind). We are far from that time obviously.


By the way, I'm not sure about Bahrein and the UAE. Those countries proved to be Israeli allies for many years but there are so many shifts of alliance in the region. I'm a bit out of touch with that.

I am not an expert in Israeli diplomatic relations and it's history, but I do have relatively extensive knowledge about Israel's history and, from what I know, Bahrain and Israel did have peaceful times several decades ago, but not recently.
Also, if I remember correctly, the current king of Bahrain is quite warm towards Israel (as in, Bahrain no longer refers to Israel as 'enemy' in official document - not exactly best friends, but....)
With regards to the UAE, things have always been very tense as far as I am aware. Recently, however, Wikileaks famously leaked reports that Israel and UAE have allied informally against Iran.

However, having said that, both countries still refuse to acknowledge Israel's existence or the existence of a Jewish state.

 

[Mozart92]

I think it's a good, innovative idea, leaving politics aside Israel is a nice country.

If the arab teams won't participate, well, in that case we won't miss them

 

[Ruby United]

Reading through the comments on this thread I am absolutely shocked at the deplorable comments against Israel here, though it is what I have come to expect from CN Forum.
Israel is the only Western democracy in the region besides Tunisia. Of all Middle Eastern countries, only Israel is classified by Freedom House as 'free.'

Meanwhile, the teams we are concerned about here, UAE and Bahrain, are both classified as authoritarian regimes as are all other countries in the ME with the exception of Egypt and Iraq.

It is the only country in the region where all citizens can vote, regardless of race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation.

I always find it ironic how strongly people on this forum fight for gay and transgender rights, yet condemn Israel when Israel is the only Middle Eastern country where both gays and transgenders are considered normal, full legal citizens who maintain all their civil liberties.

14% of Israel's population are religious Muslim, 40% secular, and between 20-35% religious Jews.
Meanwhile, in UAE and Bahrain over 70% of the population are religious Muslims.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with a large religious or Muslim population, I am merely pointing to the obvious lack of diversity.

Women gained the right to vote in Bahrain in 2002. In Israel they have had full suffrage since the State of Israel was formed in 1948.

According to Pew research, 89% of Muslims in Palestinian territories believe in the implementation of Sharia law which believes in the death penalty for active gays.
Homosexual activities in the UAE carries the death penalty.
Pew research data shows that 16% of people in Palestinian territories don't have an unfavorable view of Isis. In Israel the just 3% don't have an unfavorable view of Isis.
93% of people in Palestinian territories, according to Pew data, are against homosexuality being accepted into society.
(Please note that I chose Palestinian territories for the Pew data statistics as I could not find UAE or Bahrain stats, but throughout the Arabic Middle Eastern countries the stats were similar.)

I could write so much more, I just do not have the time at the moment.
I know that things are complicated because of the Israeli situation with Palestine. I am very aware of the specific details and complexities involved.
But I cannot understand the Anti-Israel stance adopted by so many on this thread. Frankly, it is disgraceful and deplorable.

 

[The Hegelian]

Absolutely disgraceful move to plead for the zionist overlords. Giro can go to hell if they pull this off.

See this is where "political concerns" stops being the whole story.

Please don't pull the racist card.

What other card can it be?

The notion of 'zionist overlords' is a classic anti-Semitic troupe, invoking the idea of a global Jewish conspiracy to rule the world. It has its roots in the 19th century protocols of zion, and has been resurgent of late with the rise of the alt right.

It's textbook racism.

 

[jaylew]

As already mentioned, safety might be a smaller issue in Israel than it is in several European countries that already have big races. Ok, given my druthers, I'd rather the Giro take place entirely in Italy, the Tdf in France, and the Vuelta in Spain, but the precedent has been set. Ireland is as far away and has hosted a Giro and there's been talks of a GT starting in the US.

I just don't get all the shock and outrage considering what's been going on for some time now. We've had WT races in China, Oman, Turkey, and Qatar, and UAE and Bahrain have WT teams. And I don't see Bahrain or UAE staying home since between the 2 teams they have exactly one rider from the Middle East and he won't be on the Giro roster anyway.

 

[sixtyten]

Re: Re:

It's not a race issue, it's a political issue.

I disagree. Chinese athletes don't refuse to compete with Taiwanese at the Olympics or Ukrainians with Russians or Indians with Pakistanis.

The tension is caused by policies, not by race, it definitely is a political issue. You used examples that suited you but no conflict is the same, comparisons are useless and don't explain the nature of the tension.

Anyone saying that the tensions are caused by policies and not race is naive.
Though politics is the primary concerns of all countries involved, the foundamental, underlying issue is the conflict of race.
The predicament is due to the Arabic countries refusing to recognize a Jewish state due to their beliefs.

the "predicament" is that the state of israel was founded on the violent dispossesion of the indigenous population, and is now widely considered an apartheid state. equating opposition to israel with anti-semitism is a tired and transparent attempt of zionists to shut down discussion.

 

[The Hegelian]

Of course there are good political and historical arguments to be made. However, haven't seen one yet in this thread. Have seen a kind of gag revulsion/repugnance/disgust which looks to me at least a lot more like unconscious hate than it does reasoned political-historical argument.

 

[nedhill]

Please stick to the sporting side. If you have political views you can get your hearts delight on twitter.

 

[glassmoon]

well if "cycling world" has no issue with the dictators or torturers owning the teams...

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Please stick to the sporting side. If you have political views you can get your hearts delight on twitter.

Disagree. On twitter there are 140 characters, and people who have lots of followers have a louder voice.

I'm interested in seeing how this discussion plays out

 

[Ruby United]

Re: Re:

It's not a race issue, it's a political issue.

I disagree. Chinese athletes don't refuse to compete with Taiwanese at the Olympics or Ukrainians with Russians or Indians with Pakistanis.

The tension is caused by policies, not by race, it definitely is a political issue. You used examples that suited you but no conflict is the same, comparisons are useless and don't explain the nature of the tension.

Anyone saying that the tensions are caused by policies and not race is naive.
Though politics is the primary concerns of all countries involved, the foundamental, underlying issue is the conflict of race.
The predicament is due to the Arabic countries refusing to recognize a Jewish state due to their beliefs.

the "predicament" is that the state of israel was founded on the violent dispossesion of the indigenous population, and is now widely considered an apartheid state. equating opposition to israel with anti-semitism is a tired and transparent attempt of zionists to shut down discussion.

I never equated opposition with antisemitism. I was very careful to use words like 'Anti-Israel' and 'naive' as opposed to antisemitism.
I have never tried to shut down discussion. I enjoy having these discussions, however twisted I feel one's (your) view may be.
You made insinuations which do not exist, perhaps in an attempt to conflate two different issues.

 

[Oliver]

Nah don't like it.
Just stay in Italy and eventually the neighbouring countries.

If no Bahrain, Shark to Tour?

 

[amih77]

Re: Re:

I know for a fact that all WT teams will participate.

Really? Struggle to believe that, how do you know for sure?

Because I have a connection with a guy from the organization.

By the way, one would assume that if Vegni agreed to the Jerusalem proposal, he already had an understanding (and maybe even more than that) with the Arab teams.

From a sporting perspective I tend to agree with the opposition, but, as in Israeli... boy oh boy, I'm thrilled!!!

 

[amih77]

Re:

Reading through the comments on this thread I am absolutely shocked at the deplorable comments against Israel here, though it is what I have come to expect from CN Forum.
Israel is the only Western democracy in the region besides Tunisia. Of all Middle Eastern countries, only Israel is classified by Freedom House as 'free.'

Meanwhile, the teams we are concerned about here, UAE and Bahrain, are both classified as authoritarian regimes as are all other countries in the ME with the exception of Egypt and Iraq.

It is the only country in the region where all citizens can vote, regardless of race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation.

I always find it ironic how strongly people on this forum fight for gay and transgender rights, yet condemn Israel when Israel is the only Middle Eastern country where both gays and transgenders are considered normal, full legal citizens who maintain all their civil liberties.

14% of Israel's population are religious Muslim, 40% secular, and between 20-35% religious Jews.
Meanwhile, in UAE and Bahrain over 70% of the population are religious Muslims.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with a large religious or Muslim population, I am merely pointing to the obvious lack of diversity.

Women gained the right to vote in Bahrain in 2002. In Israel they have had full suffrage since the State of Israel was formed in 1948.

According to Pew research, 89% of Muslims in Palestinian territories believe in the implementation of Sharia law which believes in the death penalty for active gays.
Homosexual activities in the UAE carries the death penalty.
Pew research data shows that 16% of people in Palestinian territories don't have an unfavorable view of Isis. In Israel the just 3% don't have an unfavorable view of Isis.
93% of people in Palestinian territories, according to Pew data, are against homosexuality being accepted into society.
(Please note that I chose Palestinian territories for the Pew data statistics as I could not find UAE or Bahrain stats, but throughout the Arabic Middle Eastern countries the stats were similar.)

I could write so much more, I just do not have the time at the moment.
I know that things are complicated because of the Israeli situation with Palestine. I am very aware of the specific details and complexities involved.
But I cannot understand the Anti-Israel stance adopted by so many on this thread. Frankly, it is disgraceful and deplorable.

Thanks. There are many more examples to the hypocrisy and ignorance involved in a typical European-people-having-a-chat-over-the-situation-in-the-Middle-East.

 

[Journey Man]

Re: Re:

however twisted I feel one's (your) view may be.

Ruby

This little back and forth highlights that there are clearly differences of opinion. One side stating with certainty that Arabs don't want Israel to exist; the other, and the UN, against Israel annexation of land beyond the 1967 borders.

It is telling that you find someone else's viewpoint "twisted", rather than equally valid and worthy of discussion.

 

[yaco]

What happened to the grand depart from Japan. I'd already planned it in my diary.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

The sport of cycling has many daft ideas that really get under my skin but races going to other countries has got to be near the top. It's the Giro d'Italia - the clue is in the name.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Re: Re:

however twisted I feel one's (your) view may be.

Ruby

This little back and forth highlights that there are clearly differences of opinion. One side stating with certainty that Arabs don't want Israel to exist; the other, and the UN, against Israel annexation of land beyond the 1967 borders.

It is telling that you find someone else's viewpoint "twisted", rather than equally valid and worthy of discussion.

If those are the two "sides," then I agree with both.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

It's not a race issue, it's a political issue.

I disagree. Chinese athletes don't refuse to compete with Taiwanese at the Olympics or Ukrainians with Russians or Indians with Pakistanis.

The tension is caused by policies, not by race, it definitely is a political issue. You used examples that suited you but no conflict is the same, comparisons are useless and don't explain the nature of the tension.

Anyone saying that the tensions are caused by policies and not race is naive.
Though politics is the primary concerns of all countries involved, the foundamental, underlying issue is the conflict of race.
The predicament is due to the Arabic countries refusing to recognize a Jewish state due to their beliefs.

the "predicament" is that the state of israel was founded on the violent dispossesion of the indigenous population, and is now widely considered an apartheid state. equating opposition to israel with anti-semitism is a tired and transparent attempt of zionists to shut down discussion.

So the country is only as legitimate as Australia?

 

[hrotha]

It's different because, in the case of Palestine, some of the people who were dispossessed and displaced are still alive and not allowed to return. But yes, obviously there's a lot of double standards involved when people talk about Israel. Some of them are justified, in that we hold Israel to democratic standards that don't necessarily apply to their neighbours, but some are more sinister than that.

 

[Mozart92]

Re:

USA detains prisoners with no trial and use torture to extract information at Guantanamo. Would have this argument ignited if the Giro started in the US?