2018 Innsbruck World Championship Men's Road Race - 259km

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

I agree with you. If the only half decent sprinter in your team has long been dropped, then you shouldn't be arriving at the foot of the final climb with most of the team in tact. You should have sacrificed guys to make the race harder.

The attack by Oomen, Kruiswijk etc.. were obviously not all in attacks if they were all still there at the final climb. They were all riding for themselves, not going all in to give a single leader the best chance to win.

I disagree. Kruijswijk perhaps, but Oomen clearly rode for Dumo and Mollema. And what use would've it been for the Dutch team if Oomen, Kruijswijk, etc. attacks more? They made the race hard enough for Adam Yates and GVA.
Valverde, Woods and Bardet would've been there anyway. The result wouldn't have changed.

But why in the world would you ever ride for Mollema? He should be attacking, not ridden for.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Re: Re:

I agree with you. If the only half decent sprinter in your team has long been dropped, then you shouldn't be arriving at the foot of the final climb with most of the team in tact. You should have sacrificed guys to make the race harder.

The attack by Oomen, Kruiswijk etc.. were obviously not all in attacks if they were all still there at the final climb. They were all riding for themselves, not going all in to give a single leader the best chance to win.

I disagree. Kruijswijk perhaps, but Oomen clearly rode for Dumo and Mollema. And what use would've it been for the Dutch team if Oomen, Kruijswijk, etc. attacks more? They made the race hard enough for Adam Yates and GVA.
Valverde, Woods and Bardet would've been there anyway. The result wouldn't have changed.

Exactly.

Btw rewatch from 24.5km. Clearly an all-out attack by Kruijswijk. He has no acceleration, but that's what going full looks like with him. Same with Oomen. I really don't know what else you expected. It's not a computer game so I completely disagree with Valv.Piti and DFA and it's utterly harsch or you utterly overrate what kind of energy levels these riders have. Guys like Yates were being dropped. When Kruijswijk went Nibali and half of Italy went poof...

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I agree with you. If the only half decent sprinter in your team has long been dropped, then you shouldn't be arriving at the foot of the final climb with most of the team in tact. You should have sacrificed guys to make the race harder.

The attack by Oomen, Kruiswijk etc.. were obviously not all in attacks if they were all still there at the final climb. They were all riding for themselves, not going all in to give a single leader the best chance to win.

I disagree. Kruijswijk perhaps, but Oomen clearly rode for Dumo and Mollema. And what use would've it been for the Dutch team if Oomen, Kruijswijk, etc. attacks more? They made the race hard enough for Adam Yates and GVA.
Valverde, Woods and Bardet would've been there anyway. The result wouldn't have changed.

Of course it would change. If someone like Kruijswijk did an all in attack and got a gap on one of the earlier passes of the climb, then Spain and France domestiques have to work hard. Then who pulls back the Pinot group or the Valgren move, or any other attac?

The Dutch should have done everything to shell the domestiques of the faster guys as early as possible. Then maybe Dumoulin or Mollema or whoever can attack before the last climb - like Valgren did - and the others look around because there are no doms left to work for them. It's basic one day tactics if you have strong climbers who are terrible sprinters.

Having six riders still there at the end, all trying to win, but none of whom can sprint or drop the favourites on a climb like that, is a massive fail. Too many egos wanting to be leaders and not enough team work.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Of course Kruijswijk isn't going away after a relatively easy day (compared to what could have been) on a relatively easy climb in the absolute final. It not what they did the last 2 laps, its what they didnt on the couple of laps beforehand.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

I guess this race was confirmation again that one day specialists > GT specialists, even in one day races with the profile of a tough GT mountain stage. 7 of the top 10 are undoubtedly more one day racers - and you could make an argument that Pinot and Bardet are better one day riders than they are stage racers these days.

Dumoulin the only real GT specialist who troubled the top 10.

I don’t know when the guy who has clearly dominated 1 day races was not racing and the other one was riding after a serious injury. How would have your statement changed if there was a final sprint with Bardet, Woods, Pity, Nibali, Froome and Dumoulin?

Well that would have been a completely different race. Not really surely what your point is tbh.

That the main GT contenders were not in great shape for many different reasons.

Ah right, fair enough. But isn't that how it will always be? GT riders will always be peaking primarily for Grand Tours - while one day specialists peaking for one day races. So in a one day race, even with a hard GT profile, that's just another advantage which makes one day racers stronger.

Tbh only Moscon is a pure one day specialist in the top 5 and the fact that Alaphilippe has been smashed by Bardet seems to show that pure one day riders have been inferior

Well, if you don't regard Valverde and Woods are one day specialists, then we're not going to agree here.

Then the question is, what is Valverde? He races for GT GC and for one day races.

 

[tobydawq]

So, a nice 19th place for Haig and 70th for Power as the only non-abandoning Australian riders.

Good call not picking Matthews. Good call.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

About the dutch team, a few pages back in this same topic Red Rick was saying mid race that it made no sense to have 6 leaders. I agreed with him and said they'd end up with 2 top 10s and no medals. I was wrong, they got 1 top 10 and no medals. That's always what's going to happen riding semi-conservatively with several non-favorite leaders.

If you have a bunch of good riders with an outside chance but no overwhelming favorite, the riders must be very aggressive and attack constantly. This way you'll break apart the race and one of the moves will stick. If you have a rider inciting every move, you'll have one in the move that sticks and that move probably won't have him fighting with the main favorites but 2nd tier riders.Kelme made an art of it a few years back.

Instead they raced mostly conservatively and ended up with 1 rider barely getting to the main move exhausted and against the strongest in the race. That's always how it was going to work out. Whichever way you slice it, dutch tactics today were poor.

Yep, this. Poels was their one card to play in a conservative race - he is the most explosive explosive an can sprint when on good form. Once he went out the back, the others should have been trying to create chaos.

They needed all in attacks, not hedging their bets with attacks that were comfortably closed down and which afterwards they were still able to recover and ride comfortably in the peloton.

Same thing with Colombia. They had lots of good riders, but no-one with the skills to seriously threaten to win once they got to the final climb. Both teams should have been tearing up the race from 100km out.

 

[jaylew]

Re: 2018 Innsbruck World Championship Men's Road Race - 259k

Also chapeau to Colombia for doing absolutely nothing on the best route they will ever get

Colombia's only realistic chance on that route was Chaves who is ill - The finish never suited the other Colombians.

If the finish doesn't suit you don't wait for the finish. I've never heard Cancellara complaining about the fact that the finish of the Ronde isn't on the Paterberg.

Exactly. Italy tried hard to make it tough and they did not have the same climbing talent of Colombia

Colombia did horrible for the talent they have.

But the way I see it, they had a bad year for the talent they have. We only had the 2 podiums from Lopez and the great showing from Bernal for the future. But Bernal wasn't here and Lopez is really not known for 1 day races. Far from it. He does not know how to race them or prepare for them properly. Even the domestiques had a bad year with illnesses and bad preparation or whatever.

So they brought, in my humble opinion, a decimated team from the beginning.

It is a pity, like I said before, because this was a mountainous course and we don't get many of those.

True. So many injuries/illnesses...Bernal, Chaves, Pantano, Atapuma...the team wound up looking completely different than it did earlier in the year.

 

[Breh]

Glad Valverde won, well deserved.

Glad Moscon was not on the podium.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

What I took out of the race is Dumoulin is an under-rated climber by the general cycling community, the cycling media and possibly by TD himself.

He has showed again and again that he can climb. His last three grand tours have proved that. Why would he be underrated ? He just doesn't have the uphill kick that someone like Valverde has or Yates.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Dumo's should've continued his attack..

What attack? He spent about 2 minutes to close a 3 second gap, was clearly on the limit.

This. How much could he have had left after such a chase? He rode his heart out.

 

[kiszol]

Re: Re:

I agree with you. If the only half decent sprinter in your team has long been dropped, then you shouldn't be arriving at the foot of the final climb with most of the team in tact. You should have sacrificed guys to make the race harder.

The attack by Oomen, Kruiswijk etc.. were obviously not all in attacks if they were all still there at the final climb. They were all riding for themselves, not going all in to give a single leader the best chance to win.

I disagree. Kruijswijk perhaps, but Oomen clearly rode for Dumo and Mollema. And what use would've it been for the Dutch team if Oomen, Kruijswijk, etc. attacks more? They made the race hard enough for Adam Yates and GVA.
Valverde, Woods and Bardet would've been there anyway. The result wouldn't have changed.

Of course it would change. If someone like Kruijswijk did an all in attack and got a gap on one of the earlier passes of the climb, then Spain and France domestiques have to work hard. Then who pulls back the Pinot group or the Valgren move, or any other attac?

The Dutch should have done everything to shell the domestiques of the faster guys as early as possible. Then maybe Dumoulin or Mollema or whoever can attack before the last climb - like Valgren did - and the others look around because there are no doms left to work for them. It's basic one day tactics if you have strong climbers who are terrible sprinters.

Having six riders still there at the end, all trying to win, but none of whom can sprint or drop the favourites on a climb like that, is a massive fail. Too many egos wanting to be leaders and not enough team work.

Well, I'm not Dutch but I still don't think thay played it bad. They didn't know that Dumoulin will be that good after the hard season, after the TT that showed he is not in peak form (for the third time in a year). They didn't know he will be the team's best option with the almost non-existent one day pedigree he has. Why couldn't have it been Mollema, who rode well in the Vuelta? Or Poels? The bookies thought he has a better chance than Tom. Even Kruijswijk who is a diesel as well himself but surely had some form in him. That's already four potential leaders and I didn't even consider Kelderman and Oomen.

They could've say Tom is the leader, work for him, but than what if Dumoulin had the bad day Poels had? Or what if they work for Poels only for him to blow up and leaving the team with some already tired helpers to finish the job? So easy to be smart AFTER you saw the race.

 

[Koronin]

Great finish. Congratulations Don Alejandro!
Also Congrats to Bardet and Woods on their podium. I think this shows Dumoulin can climb and maybe could race one day races as well.

 

[vedrafjord]

A decent race, cagey but the tension slowly ratcheted up over the last two laps til I was on the edge of my seat for the finale. I would have put the wall climb much earlier to break things up from further out - all the serious contenders knew they needed to keep something in reserve for that and the peloton was still big well into the race as a result. Obviously some big names dropped early but that was just bad legs on the day rather than selectivity. When you see Nico Roche comfortably sitting at the back of the group for lap after lap after lap, you know the pace is moderate.

 

[roundabout]

Re:

So, a nice 19th place for Haig and 70th for Power as the only non-abandoning Australian riders.

Good call not picking Matthews. Good call.

He is probably among the best 8 for Australia even on this route, but realistically he had no chance of contending for a medal

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I agree with you. If the only half decent sprinter in your team has long been dropped, then you shouldn't be arriving at the foot of the final climb with most of the team in tact. You should have sacrificed guys to make the race harder.

The attack by Oomen, Kruiswijk etc.. were obviously not all in attacks if they were all still there at the final climb. They were all riding for themselves, not going all in to give a single leader the best chance to win.

I disagree. Kruijswijk perhaps, but Oomen clearly rode for Dumo and Mollema. And what use would've it been for the Dutch team if Oomen, Kruijswijk, etc. attacks more? They made the race hard enough for Adam Yates and GVA.
Valverde, Woods and Bardet would've been there anyway. The result wouldn't have changed.

Of course it would change. If someone like Kruijswijk did an all in attack and got a gap on one of the earlier passes of the climb, then Spain and France domestiques have to work hard. Then who pulls back the Pinot group or the Valgren move, or any other attac?

The Dutch should have done everything to shell the domestiques of the faster guys as early as possible. Then maybe Dumoulin or Mollema or whoever can attack before the last climb - like Valgren did - and the others look around because there are no doms left to work for them. It's basic one day tactics if you have strong climbers who are terrible sprinters.

Having six riders still there at the end, all trying to win, but none of whom can sprint or drop the favourites on a climb like that, is a massive fail. Too many egos wanting to be leaders and not enough team work.

Well, I'm not a Dutch but I still don't think thay played it bad. They didn't know that Dumoulin will be that good after the hard season, after the TT that showed he is not in peak form (for the third time in a year). They didn't know he will be the team's best option with the almost non-existent one day pedigree he has. Why couldn't have it been Mollema, who rode well in the Vuelta? Or Poels? The bookies thought he has a better chance than Tom. Even Kruijswijk who is a diesel as well himself but surely had some form in him. That's already four potential leaders. They could've say it's Tom, work for him, but than what if Dumoulin had the bad day Poels had? Or what if they work for Poels only for him ro blow up and the leaving the team with some already tired helpers to finish the job? So easy to be smart AFTER you saw the race.

Well, if you go back through the comments, you will see that quite a few of us were saying the Dutch strategy of six leaders was a disaster, well before the finale. And so it proved.

Of course there is a risk in choosing just one or two leaders, that they have a bad day. But it's a gamble you have to take - they needed to sacrifice some of their strong riders to make the race more chaotic and less controlled, so that one of their powerful rouleurs could get away solo somewhere towards the end. And they didn't do it.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

[quote="Koronin
Then the question is, what is Valverde? [/quote]

 

[kiszol]

Re: Re:

What I took out of the race is Dumoulin is an under-rated climber by the general cycling community, the cycling media and possibly by TD himself.

He has showed again and again that he can climb. His last three grand tours have proved that. Why would he be underrated ? He just doesn't have the uphill kick that someone like Valverde has or Yates.

Some posters still think he is only a great TTer who can climb a bit as well. Now maybe they will beleive in him as well. This is not Vuelta 2015 Dumoulin anymore, not even close.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

Well, we must come back to the Clinic.

Someone is in serious need of a timeout.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Re:

Who was annoyed by Sagan walking up to Valverde on the ceremony? It was obvious that Valverde really liked that gesture, but its very typical Sagan to pull such a stunt. Was a little annoyed by i to be honest, the kind of guy who likes to steal the show all the time, but then again, Valverde was fine with it and there seems to be a great mutual respect between the two.

I can't imagine that Sagan insisted on doing the presentation, he was asked to. Short of throwing the medal at him, walking up to him seems to be the only way to do that. And If Sagan and Valverde are happy with it, why should you object?

 

[KyoGrey]

Sagan with Valverde felt a little bit mixed way.

If it was as to play fiefdom and homage to Valverde, it's OK.

If it is to share spotlight or to give the rainbow jersey in a patronising way, it is NOT OK.

As much as Sagan is all-time great and the star of the moment in cycling, he is not as great as Valverde. And there is a good chance that he will never be as great overall.

It would had made much more sense if it had been the other way in 2015, for an instance.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

It's odd how it's always the same riders who get the hate in here: Froome, Valverde, Matthews, Gerrans, Porte..

While Nibali, Sagan, GVA, Yates bros, Gilbert, Contador are praised as saints.

It's getting tiresome, guys

Is Porte hated?

Froome is understandable as the "head" of the Sky train. Rest of those guys are some of the most legendary wheelsuckers in cycling and some of us just don't like that kind of riders.

Funny how it's called shrewd race craft when a rider they like do it and then condemned otherwise.

 

[Screecher]

Re:

Sagan with Valverde felt a little bit mixed way.

If it was as to play fiefdom and homage to Valverde, it's OK.

If it is to share spotlight or to give the rainbow jersey in a patronising way, it is NOT OK.

As much as Sagan is all-time great and the star of the moment in cycling, he is not as great as Valverde. And there is a good chance that he will never be as great overall.

It would had made much more sense if it had been the other way in 2015, for an instance.

The not as great as Valverde really depends on the person. Go ask the clinic what they think about that.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

It's odd how it's always the same riders who get the hate in here: Froome, Valverde, Matthews, Gerrans, Porte..

While Nibali, Sagan, GVA, Yates bros, Gilbert, Contador are praised as saints.

It's getting tiresome, guys

Is Porte hated?

Froome is understandable as the "head" of the Sky train. Rest of those guys are some of the most legendary wheelsuckers in cycling and some of us just don't like that kind of riders.

Funny how it's called shrewd race craft when a rider they like do it and then condemned otherwise.

No, it's really cause those riders make races worse when they are there mostly.

Everyone's always up in arms about wanting exciting racing, and then suddenly we gotta hail the big wheelsuckers because why exactly?

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Peter seems like a total ***, cant stay out of the spotlight

Lol, that's a bit harsh.

More than a bit when he was asked to present the medal. It's not like he just barged his way on to the stage and invaded the presentation ceremony.