2020 World Championships - now confirmed for Imola, Italy.

[AQETUYIOI]

Anybody else thinks Van Aert should've pulled more? I mean he was the fastest guy there, by far, and thus the reason for others not to go full gas. And he clearly had strength, evident by the last two pulls at autodrom and that final sprint. If he had pulled like a madman, others would work too, sensing an opportunity for them.

There's a rule that says one must never contribute in a chase if one is not guaranteed the win.

 

[fbjim]

the fact that Matthews won "the garbageman sprint" and that the top three were all stage hunter/classics guys makes me wonder about team selection as well. It seemed like it was maybe less hard than teams anticipated- I don't know if he wasn't fit/didn't want to ride/was training for other races, but if I was Italy, I'd much rather have had Trentin as the protected rider over Nibali on the last lap.

The only recent time a "GC Worlds" has actually turned out that way seems to be 2018 which had a far longer, grindier climb.

 

[Brumdog66]

I need to rewatch to make sure I have the riders right, but I think was a period on the last lap when Dumoulin had pulled a small group just clear and he initially refused to pull it. That's very possibly a race-winning move if he does pull that group clear, I think- more understandable if I/the commentary misidentified one of the Belgian workhorses.


It was criticized for possibly losing him the race but Trentin putting in hard turns at Yorkshire despite having Moscon in the group kept it cohesive. It didn't hurt that it was a group of three by the end, obviously, for the "well, if I'm outsprinted, I still get a medal" factor.

I think that was GVA who wouldn't pull because Van Aert was behind

 

[Bardamu]

It was Greg.

 

[fbjim]

Ohh, gotcha. I thought Greg was in that weird group split that happened on the flat roads into Riolo Terme that nobody seemed to know whether to push or not.

 

[SKSemtex]

After yesterday's race, I have a paradox feeling that strong WVA is Sagan's best opportunity to achieve another big palmiere. He will not be scared to cooperate with him fairly if the final selection is made. We know that Sagan sprint after the hard race is very questionable.
The question is if Sagan still can come close to his top form. (he should ask for the same ketone supplements aj Jumbo has)
I wish we can see one-day the final Paterberg duel and Sagan will have his 2016 legs ( or at least 2013)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Anybody else thinks Van Aert should've pulled more? I mean he was the fastest guy there, by far, and thus the reason for others not to go full gas. And he clearly had strength, evident by the last two pulls at autodrom and that final sprint. If he had pulled like a madman, others would work too, sensing an opportunity for them.

You earn your right to sprint for the gold. By being by far the fastest sprinter in that group, he is the one that stands the most to gain from catching Alaphilippe, and the others can try to bluff him into it. Their only chance of gold is if van Aert expends too much energy trying to catch Alaphilippe that he is unable to sprint to the best of his ability at the end, because his sprint at the end was so authoritative as to suggest even a tactical error like Longo Borghini's opening the door up would not have mattered.

The Women's Olympic Road Race in Rio is the perfect example of this. Abbott was away solo, and you had a chasing trio of van der Breggen, Longo Borghini and Johansson. Emma J has a long history of 2nds and 3rds in the biggest events. She is also by far the strongest sprinter of that trio, but also comfortably the weakest time triallist. However given the advantage Abbott has, their only chance of catching her is if they all go all out, and that means Emma has to risk tiring herself out and not being able to use her main weapon from this selection: her sprint. She absolutely turned herself inside out to match the contributions of Anna and Elisa and they caught Abbott in the final kilometre... but as a result, Emma had nothing left in the tank for the sprint and she finished 2nd. If she hadn't worked so hard to catch Abbott, she'd have won that sprint easily - but the sprint would have been for silver. Johansson realised her only shot at winning the gold was to take the risk of throwing away her biggest advantage in the group, but she did it because the possibility of gold, even if being made more remote with each turn she took on the front, was more valuable than the near-certainty of silver if she didn't take that risk.

Now, in fairness to van Aert, he did take his pulls, this wasn't Simon Gerrans in 2014 soft-turning or rolling through his turns and then whining in the press that he had the legs to fight for gold and the others didn't give him the chance to. However, the others in that group were well within their rights to expect van Aert to do the lions' share of the work because he was the guy who stood to gain the most. He was the Emma Johansson in that group, and taking more, and longer and harder, pulls on the front and letting others take less wind might have taken the risk of making his sprint more vulnerable to the others - but it would also have increased the chance of that sprint being for gold, rather than silver.

It's a gamble that you take when you get to that stage of the World Championships every time - how much energy do you have left, how much energy do the people around you have left. If van Aert had no more to give and Alaphilippe was just too strong? That's fine. If van Aert could have given more but gambled on the group being more cohesive than it was? Then either he overestimated how much energy those riders had left, or he overestimated their willingness to work with him knowing that he would be able to outsprint them. That's fine too, not every gamble can pay off and he can learn from it. However if van Aert gambled on not spending that energy and it didn't come off, that's on him, not on Rogla or anybody else in that group.

 

[Netserk]

Difference being that van Aert was the strongest in the group and best able to reel in Ala. He was the Mendrisio Cancellara with a better sprint. The only option is to go full gas over the top of the climb without hesitation, and only after a monster pull hope the others will contribute.

 

[SafeBet]

the fact that Matthews won "the garbageman sprint" and that the top three were all stage hunter/classics guys makes me wonder about team selection as well. It seemed like it was maybe less hard than teams anticipated- I don't know if he wasn't fit/didn't want to ride/was training for other races, but if I was Italy, I'd much rather have had Trentin as the protected rider over Nibali on the last lap.

That might have been the plan until Trentin chose not to ride.
Formolo, who was probably the most suited to this kind of route, had broken his collarbone a few days earlier.
Which left Italy with a shortage of options. For all the talk about Nibali hitting his peak once per year, he tends to be rather consistent in 250+ km races, so I don't really blame Cassani for going his way at that point.

 

[Cannavaro]

Devenyns did not take part because he didn't want to ride against Alaphilippe. So trade/national team conflicts seem to play a role for some at least.

With all respect to Devenyns, I do not see any situation where he actually could ride against Alaphilippe during the World Championship. Alaphilippe is not the type of rider who attacks 60 kilometers from the finish. When he attacks, Devenyns is long gone. Can we be sure that this was not only cheap talk?

 

[fbjim]

I think that was GVA who wouldn't pull because Van Aert was behind

OK, I knew I wasn't crazy, it was an attack near the top of the first climb when he had a gap in a group of Uran, Landa, Nibali and himself but didn't appear to seriously drive it.

Admittedly that's a strange group, but I could see someone there deciding to help push it along in the hopes of attacking on the final climb, but yeah, I can see not wanting to be in a break with three climbers approaching the last climb of the day as well.

 

[search]

With all respect to Devenyns, I do not see any situation where he actually could ride against Alaphilippe during the World Championship. Alaphilippe is not the type of rider who attacks 60 kilometers from the finish. When he attacks, Devenyns is long gone. Can we be sure that this was not only cheap talk?

well, in the Tour he was Alaphilippe's best domestique, but sure, right in the end it probably wouldn't have made too much of a difference

This is what the artice said today:

(google translated)

Dries Devenyns (37) was selected for the Belgian team, but declined the honor. The Deceuninck - Quick -Step rider did not want to get into a situation where he would have to ride behind teammate and friend Julian Alaphilippe.

“For Julian, the World Cup was one of the big goals of his career. I did not want to have to ride in a different jersey. I let the national coach know. He understood my situation. ” He is delighted that teammate Alaphilippe has achieved his big goal. "For a long time I thought that the pursuers would catch up to him, but apparently everyone was at their limit."

Devenyns sees his personal situation as a recommendation not to drive a World Cup with national teams, but with the brand teams. “Now the conflict of interests as a rider is inevitable. The people who criticize my choice are probably the same ones who think Roglic should have worked for van Aert. ” Devenyns will ride together with Alaphilippe in the Walloon Arrow on Wednesday.

https://pressreader.com/article/281921660489812

 

[RedheadDane]

Devenyns sees his personal situation as a recommendation not to drive a World Cup with national teams, but with the brand teams. “Now the conflict of interests as a rider is inevitable.

That's the dumbest *** I've read in a long time! If a rider is not comfortable riding against his trade-teammates at the Worlds, fine; don't ride. However, other riders are indeed able to accept that at the Worlds you ride for national teams, which sometimes means riding against your trade-teammates.

 

[Netserk]

OK, I knew I wasn't crazy, it was an attack near the top of the first climb when he had a gap in a group of Uran, Landa, Nibali and himself but didn't appear to seriously drive it.

Admittedly that's a strange group, but I could see someone there deciding to help push it along in the hopes of attacking on the final climb, but yeah, I can see not wanting to be in a break with three climbers approaching the last climb of the day as well.

That was van Aert. Look at the helmet if in doubt.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

That's the dumbest *** I've read in a long time! If a rider is not comfortable riding against his trade-teammates at the Worlds, fine; don't ride. However, other riders are indeed able to accept that at the Worlds you ride for national teams, which sometimes means riding against your trade-teammates.

He’s right that there’s a conflict of interest though. Most riders resolve it by putting national team first. I respect him for not pretending that he would do so.

 

[BlueRoads]

That's the dumbest *** I've read in a long time! If a rider is not comfortable riding against his trade-teammates at the Worlds, fine; don't ride. However, other riders are indeed able to accept that at the Worlds you ride for national teams, which sometimes means riding against your trade-teammates.

Well, I don't really want to see a "Milram worldchamp" or an "UAE worldchamp", but actually I would like to get rid of national teams as well. I just don't really know how to and what to replace them with.

 

[RedheadDane]

He’s right that there’s a conflict of interest though. Most riders resolve it by putting national team first. I respect him for not pretending that he would do so.

But is it a conflict of interest if riders simply accept that they're obviously riding for their national teams, and shouldn't let trade-team interests factor in?
Indeed; it's cool that Devenyns is being open about the fact that, apparently, he can't accept that, but he shouldn't go around acting as if no one else can.

 

[Bardamu]

well, in the Tour he was Alaphilippe's best domestique, but sure, right in the end it probably wouldn't have made too much of a difference

This is what the artice said today:

(google translated)

Dries Devenyns (37) was selected for the Belgian team, but declined the honor. The Deceuninck - Quick -Step rider did not want to get into a situation where he would have to ride behind teammate and friend Julian Alaphilippe.

“For Julian, the World Cup was one of the big goals of his career. I did not want to have to ride in a different jersey. I let the national coach know. He understood my situation. ” He is delighted that teammate Alaphilippe has achieved his big goal. "For a long time I thought that the pursuers would catch up to him, but apparently everyone was at their limit."

Devenyns sees his personal situation as a recommendation not to drive a World Cup with national teams, but with the brand teams. “Now the conflict of interests as a rider is inevitable. The people who criticize my choice are probably the same ones who think Roglic should have worked for van Aert. ” Devenyns will ride together with Alaphilippe in the Walloon Arrow on Wednesday.

https://pressreader.com/article/281921660489812

This doesn't make sense?

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

But is it a conflict of interest if riders simply accept that they're obviously riding for their national teams, and shouldn't let trade-team interests factor in?

That‘s how we expect riders to resolve the conflict of interest, but it doesn’t change that there is one to resolve. Riders are paid by their team, ride week in week out for their teammates, travel around with their teammates, usually have most of the friends on their team. Then they are asked to ride for a guy who is their opponent in every other race. Of course there are both personal and financial interests in conflict with that. I’m not saying therefore it’s bad and should be got rid of, but the conflict is inherent to the set up.

 

[BlueRoads]

This doesn't make sense?

He probably means people don't find him patriotic enough?

 

[Jagartrott]

That's the dumbest *** I've read in a long time! If a rider is not comfortable riding against his trade-teammates at the Worlds, fine; don't ride. However, other riders are indeed able to accept that at the Worlds you ride for national teams, which sometimes means riding against your trade-teammates.

You've been around here for a long time, so surely you must have noticed or heard about trade team/national team conflicts before? Riders not giving 100% when they are expected to, or giving 100% when they are not expected to? It has surfaced in some shape or form in many championships, actually. I don't know how to resolve it. The trade teams at the worlds is not a new idea. In fact, the TTTs involved trade teams, not the national teams, for example.

 

[Danskebjerge]

You earn your right to sprint for the gold. By being by far the fastest sprinter in that group, he is the one that stands the most to gain from catching Alaphilippe, and the others can try to bluff him into it. Their only chance of gold is if van Aert expends too much energy trying to catch Alaphilippe that he is unable to sprint to the best of his ability at the end, because his sprint at the end was so authoritative as to suggest even a tactical error like Longo Borghini's opening the door up would not have mattered.

Van Aert's chance was to attack from the group. He was not only the best sprinter in the group, but also - especially with Roglic struggling - the fastest "time trialist". Either he did it wrong, or he did not have the power. In the end, though, they were not even close to catching the Frenchman.

 

[Luthor]

This doesn't make sense?

It does bc he would be the target of the chauvinistic belgian fans, same as Roglic

 

[RedheadDane]

You've been around here for a long time, so surely you must have noticed or heard about trade team/national team conflicts before? Riders not giving 100% when they are expected to, or giving 100% when they are not expected to? It has surfaced in some shape or form in many championships, actually. I don't know how to resolve it. The trade teams at the worlds is not a new idea. In fact, the TTTs involved trade teams, not the national teams, for example.

But just because some riders act as described, it doesn't mean they all do. Or would you say Martin didn't give all he could for Alaphillipe yesterday?

 

[Brumdog66]

Van Aert's chance was to attack from the group. He was not only the best sprinter in the group, but also - especially with Roglic struggling - the fastest "time trialist". Either he did it wrong, or he did not have the power. In the end, though, they were not even close to catching the Frenchman.

To be fair it was Van Aert's first race with a bullseye on his back, he should adapt in the classics. Wouldn't be surprised if he pulls a Sagan PR 2018 at some point in the near future