2020 World Championships - now confirmed for Imola, Italy.

[Sciatic]

I think we All know how you feel......

How quickly people forget the 2014 Worlds. You all remember the Purito/Costa/Valverde whatever happened situation. It's not like this is the first time there have been questions about supporting trade team teammate vs national team teammate. Of course this like 2014 comes down to do you believe (2014 race) Valverde or (2020) Roglic? Only they know if they are telling you the full truth or not.

I think we have a more recent example where the converse (Of the situation at a world’s ) also happened: didn’t Roglic say after Pogacar’s breakaway on Stage 8 say something like, “it’s a Slovenian rider out in front, let someone else chase him”? And it cost him dearly!

ed. Also, apologies about the Carols quote in the response: I don’t know how to delete a reply when I hit the wrong entry to reply to?

 

[BlueRoads]

I think the special problem in cycling (compared to football, for instance), is that it is a team sport, but also an individual sport. You have team-mates, but it's one single rider who's wearing the special jersey, standing on the podium, getting the medal. That makes it more personal. If you are part of one team and then part of another team, you are always just a part of it and the others are just a part of it. But if it comes down to helping your friend get crowned or not that can become something else. The thing that one "sacrifices" himself for the other is different from football, too. There are players who get more of the fame and the hatred than others, but nobody is expected to sacrifice himself and his own chances for the fame and win of the other. If for instance van Aert sacrifices himself for Roglic that is to his advantage, too, his team wins. But at the same time he's not the one who would have become Tour-winner. So there are expectations sneaking up, that there has to be some pay-back other than the pay-check. So this national/trade/club team thing has another factor coming into play.

 

[Koronin]

I think we have a more recent example where the converse (Of the situation at a world’s ) also happened: didn’t Roglic say after Pogacar’s breakaway on Stage 8 say something like, “it’s a Slovenian rider out in front, let someone else chase him”? And it cost him dearly!

ed. Also, apologies about the Carols quote in the response: I don’t know how to delete a reply when I hit the wrong entry to reply to?

Which is actually the opposite of some of the Spaniards, whom away from cycling are good friends. You give them bikes and tell them there is a race they are going to go all out against each other. I think at this point specifically Contador and Valverde have said their respectful rivalry made them both better. They wanted to beat each other.

The interesting thing about Roglic's comment about chasing Pogacar at the Tour is he was willing to help chase Pogacar down at la Vuelta last year when Valverde was trying to chase to keep his podium spot. In that case maybe it was a willingness to work with a specific rider who was doing the chasing as he was willing to work with Valverde chasing earlier in the race as well. So may have been different dynamics in play at la Vuelta.

 

[Tonton]

Why do those conflicts between allegiances to your club and country never come up in football for example or in other sports? I just don't get it. It's ONE race in the whole freaking year, the teams are mixed up, you ride in the same team with the riders you usually ride against and against your usual teammates, but that's pretty exciting if you ask me. It's one race in the year where you get something different. But I guess some will start crying or get a panic attack if they need to ride against their "mates" or sth

While I agree with the last part of your post, the first part is comparing apples to oranges. Unlike most sports, cycling doesn't revolve around the Olympics and/or the Worlds (or the World Cup, 6 Nations). A rainbow jersey, an Olympic gold are not much compared to a GT, and many riders and fans would put PR or the RVV at least at the same level. Cycling is unique in that respect. I would add that free-agency is still somewhat new in cycling...a lot of riders still compete for one team (or its off-shoot) for their entire career.

[Edit] and Blueroads makes a great point also team/individual/sacrifice

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Why do those conflicts between allegiances to your club and country never come up in football for example or in other sports? I just don't get it. It's ONE race in the whole freaking year, the teams are mixed up, you ride in the same team with the riders you usually ride against and against your usual teammates, but that's pretty exciting if you ask me. It's one race in the year where you get something different. But I guess some will start crying or get a panic attack if they need to ride against their "mates" or sth

as Blueroads pointed out, football is a true team sport. when your team wins, you win. This makes loyalty a simpler issue. In cycling there is always the tension between team success and individual glory. And in particular these questions only arise for people who are being asked to sacrifice themselves so that some other individual can win.

Devenyns for instance isn’t really being asked to ride for the success of a Belgian team, he’s being asked to ride for the chance of a Van Aert or maybe a GVA to be world champion for a year. In a weeks time he’s not on the team of the world champion, his rivals are. Does he gain more emotionally, psychologically, financially from his team mate and friend being world champion of from some other dude he is usually trying to stop from winning being world champion? He’s supposed to kill himself so that some other guy who happens to be Belgian can spend a year in the rainbow stripes rather than his friend and teammate?

the more surprising thing really is that most riders actually do work for their country’s captain.

 

[Koronin]

You know, all this talk about teams and individuals and team sport but individual glory and then many criticize Movistar for actually caring about team titles. Many criticize them for actually racing for the team title and wanting to win and then being very happy about winning it. That is the one time the entire team, all those who are sacrificing for others, get on the podium. Maybe don't criticize them as much in the future?

 

[hrotha]

You know, all this talk about teams and individuals and team sport but individual glory and then many criticize Movistar for actually caring about team titles. Many criticize them for actually racing for the team title and wanting to win and then being very happy about winning it. That is the one time the entire team, all those who are sacrificing for others, get on the podium. Maybe don't criticize them as much in the future?

Why? Acknowledging that cycling is primarily an individual sport doesn't necessarily mean you think that's not the way it should be. What Movistar does is all sorts of lame, but that doesn't mean a domestique who refuses to do their job isn't bad.

 

[roundabout]

How quickly people forget the 2014 Worlds. You all remember the Purito/Costa/Valverde whatever happened situation. It's not like this is the first time there have been questions about supporting trade team teammate vs national team teammate. Of course this like 2014 comes down to do you believe (2014 race) Valverde or (2020) Roglic? Only they know if they are telling you the full truth or not.

Ehm, that's a bit of novel interpretation of what happened.

At least I haven't read anything in the last 7 years that disproves my original feeling that Valverde was asleep when Costa attacked.

And if Valverde really did deliberately trade his and Spain's chance of a World title for a trade teammate having it for 2 weeks then he is even dumber than I thought.

 

[Tonton]

You know, all this talk about teams and individuals and team sport but individual glory and then many criticize Movistar for actually caring about team titles. Many criticize them for actually racing for the team title and wanting to win and then being very happy about winning it. That is the one time the entire team, all those who are sacrificing for others, get on the podium. Maybe don't criticize them as much in the future?

The problem is that Movistar's internal stories and power struggles don't make this team...a team. Valverde, Quintana, Landa, the drama: that's not a team. Winning a team competition shows the strength of the line-up. You win battles, the average, but you lose the war. Being the second-best team in the GC is a failure. It's moot. You don't weight on the race. Pog just showed, again, that if your team is not the best, be a remora and eat their food from underneath their nose.

 

[Koronin]

Ehm, that's a bit of novel interpretation of what happened.

At least I haven't read anything in the last 7 years that disproves my original feeling that Valverde was asleep when Costa attacked.

And if Valverde really did deliberately trade his and Spain's chance of a World title for a trade teammate having it for 2 weeks then he is even dumber than I thought.

Personally I believe Valverde when he says he didn't have the ability to follow Costa at the time Costa attacked. Or he wasn't paying attention (which is also possible), but I don't think he was intentionally helping Costa, which is what Rodriquez basically claimed. Although I suspect not paying attention is the correct answer and he won't say he wasn't paying attention.

 

[Koronin]

Why? Acknowledging that cycling is primarily an individual sport doesn't necessarily mean you think that's not the way it should be. What Movistar does is all sorts of lame, but that doesn't mean a domestique who refuses to do their job isn't bad.

True, but we have a domestique chooses to not participate in a National team race, which is acceptable. Riders turn down World invites for various reasons. Actually refusing to do their job once in the race is bad.

The problem is that Movistar's internal stories and power struggles don't make this team...a team. Valverde, Quintana, Landa, the drama: that's not a team. Winning a team competition shows the strength of the line-up. You win battles, the average, but you lose the war. Being the second-best team in the GC is a failure. It's moot. You don't weight on the race. Pog just showed, again, that if your team is not the best, be a remora and eat their food from underneath their nose.

That wasn't this year. This year they appear to be an actual team. They certainly appeared to get along with each other better than the previous teams with the power struggles going on.

 

[Tonton]

A year without Quintana and Landa stops the drama. They were a team, Valverde's team.

 

[Koronin]

A year without Quintana and Landa stops the drama. They were a team, Valverde's team.

Basically, yes. Actually I think the documentary showed they were always Valverde's team. You saw how dysfunctional the Tour team was with Landa and Quintanta and in fighting while Valverde was trying to ignore everything. Then at la Vuelta, Valverde took charge of the team and even though you could see Quintana wasn't really happy there wasn't the in fighting. This year is a bit different. I really think at the Tour we were witnessing Valverde starting to turn leadership of the team over to Mas.

 

[RedheadDane]

How quickly people forget the 2014 Worlds. You all remember the Purito/Costa/Valverde whatever happened situation. It's not like this is the first time there have been questions about supporting trade team teammate vs national team teammate. Of course this like 2014 comes down to do you believe (2014 race) Valverde or (2020) Roglic? Only they know if they are telling you the full truth or not.

That was in 2013, Firenze. 2014 was the one Kwiatkowski won.

the more surprising thing really is that most riders actually do work for their country’s captain.

Because for many riders their country's captain is their friend, who just happens to be employed by a different trade team.

 

[Koronin]

That was in 2013, Firenze. 2014 was the one Kwiatkowski won.



Because for many riders their country's captain is their friend, who just happens to be employed by a different trade team.

You're right, it was '13. For some reason I keep thinking that was '14.

 

[saganftw]

as Blueroads pointed out, football is a true team sport. when your team wins, you win. This makes loyalty a simpler issue. In cycling there is always the tension between team success and individual glory. And in particular these questions only arise for people who are being asked to sacrifice themselves so that some other individual can win.

Devenyns for instance isn’t really being asked to ride for the success of a Belgian team, he’s being asked to ride for the chance of a Van Aert or maybe a GVA to be world champion for a year. In a weeks time he’s not on the team of the world champion, his rivals are. Does he gain more emotionally, psychologically, financially from his team mate and friend being world champion of from some other dude he is usually trying to stop from winning being world champion? He’s supposed to kill himself so that some other guy who happens to be Belgian can spend a year in the rainbow stripes rather than his friend and teammate?

the more surprising thing really is that most riders actually do work for their country’s captain.

If you can put on your resume that you were a domestique for a world champion, you can leverage that for a better contract. Its said that the second best thing after being a superstar in any team sport is being a veteran, because then you can prolong your career just on reputation. You hear that all the time, how teams need veteran presence or whatever. How much exactly is it worth to someone like Devenyns nobody knows because we dont know him, but apparently not enough to do it, which is fine btw (he is also 37 so he doesnt give a sh*t anymore). General public doesnt care about nuances of building a team, but for directors its not like PCM, where you can just order dudes to do what you want, you actually want a team and a pleasant working environment. Imagine if they asked GVA there is possibility of signing Devenyns to CCC, that conversation would be probably pretty awkward because he doesnt want to work for me coz we aint buddies but when he needs paycheck all of a sudden we gucci?

We saw Martin working for Alaphilippe, i doubt he gains much from it other than reputation among team directors which is very valuable thing if his days as cofidis team leader are over, people in power will remember "he is a good guy, follows orders, is willing to sacrifice blablabla" and he can stay around a lot longer than he probably should. Its never talked about but cyclists should care about their "brand" especially because cycling doesnt pay millions like more lucrative sports. Those 10 minutes on the front Martin invested into Alaphillipe might turn into couple of veteran contracts in the future, and might even decide he gets a place on national or even trade team in the future over some other guy because Alaphillipe will remember that one time he won, Martin had his back.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Thanks to everyone for their interesting insights into this subject matter. When I posted about trade teammates and/vs. national teammates I didn't really have an opinion as such on the matter (and still don't), but simply find many of these situations a little blurry. When it is not really black and white, it can make for more interesting discussion imo.

I wasn't expecting to read a sequel to The English Patient

 

[Brumdog66]

Why do those conflicts between allegiances to your club and country never come up in football for example or in other sports? I just don't get it. It's ONE race in the whole freaking year, the teams are mixed up, you ride in the same team with the riders you usually ride against and against your usual teammates, but that's pretty exciting if you ask me. It's one race in the year where you get something different. But I guess some will start crying or get a panic attack if they need to ride against their "mates" or sth

Actually conflicts like this can affect football teams. Several of England's so called "golden generation" admitted to an animosity due to the intensity of competition in the premier league. Apparently they used to sit at different tables for each club and barely talk to each other

 

[Carols]

I think we have a more recent example where the converse (Of the situation at a world’s ) also happened: didn’t Roglic say after Pogacar’s breakaway on Stage 8 say something like, “it’s a Slovenian rider out in front, let someone else chase him”? And it cost him dearly!

ed. Also, apologies about the Carols quote in the response: I don’t know how to delete a reply when I hit the wrong entry to reply to?

Well I have no idea what post you're replying to. But yes Roglic learned a lesson. He wanted his friend and countryman on the podium so he let him take time, never thinking he'd have bad legs in the TT.
Of course had he chased many here would be saying 'he's leading why doesn't he make others chase'.
But I doubt he'll give away time to a friend in the future!