2020 World Championships - now confirmed for Imola, Italy.

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Dec 9, 2019
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I think Landa is close to the favourite for the Vuelta.

Reason being that he can put strong GT's together back to back. He did it Giro-Tour, most can only do Giro-Vuelta for GC. And the schedule is more congested this season.

Dumoulin has done this too (and is apparently riding the Vuelta), but having 2019 off might hurt him.
Roglic is also coming https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/dumoulin-krijgt-in-vuelta-het-gezelschap-van-roglic-en-kuss/
Not sure if he would try to defend the title or ride for Dumo. My pick would be 2 leaders, this time for real.

Vuelta being shorter works well for the Tdf riders who would have more fatigue. I guess this might be one of the reasons why the Vuelta organisers did it and not replacing the stages from NL, to bait more of them.
 
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Just reading through this thread - very slowly - now, so this point of discussion may have been bought up, but anyway, what are your thoughts on cyclists working for others, arguably because they are from the same nationality, when they are not on the same trade team?

Something like Fuente De 2012 Vuelta, a Spaniard working with Contador who was on a different team? Not saying it's right or wrong, but I think it's an interesting area of discussion. Maybe in that instance he thought Contador might help him win the stage (even if only a slim chance)?
Wasn't the main guy helping Contador on Fuente De the Italian Tiralongo and he did it because they were friends and used to ride for the same team?

Anyway, if it was a regular thing that countrymen would help each other I would probably complain about that as well, but I don't think it is. Even if Contador was helped by a Spaniard in 2012, it can hardly be because of Nationalism as the guy Contador had attacked was from Spain as well (as was the third placed rider). When it comes to individuals helping other individuals from different teams because they are friends outside of cycling or that sort of stuff (anything but both liking Rugby, really) I will probably still complain when the collaborate against one of my favorites, but generally I accept it. The big difference between that and trade-teammates helping each other in the worlds is that there is no system behind it.

It's never gonna pay off to be such a nice guy that the whole peloton wants to help you. But if you are in the strongest team throughout the season that could then suddenly pay off in the worlds as well. What message would it send if Roglic empties himself to the extent of not even being capable of following the group to the finish? What if that sort of behavior becomes the norm? There are no rules prohibiting it and it's pretty much impossible to make any. That's the danger. That in a few years, on a flat parcours we think, "oh man Gaviria doesn't really have too many Colombian teammates to control it on the flat, but it's not too bad, he has enough teammates from different countries who should be able to do the job", and what some Belgians expected from Roglic would have been the first step in that direction.

Iirc it was in the 2012 Olympics when Bernhard Eisel told the media pre race that he was gonna work for Cavendish, which basically just made me think "why the f#ck did the Austrians waste one of their few spots with Eisel" but also "why the f#ck does a guy who would actually have an outside chance to get a medal just throw it away". Eisel was by far Austrias best shot in that race.
That sort of stuff just shouldn't happen and I'm glad it didn't happen with Roglic yesterday.
 
Wasn't the main guy helping Contador on Fuente De the Italian Tiralongo and he did it because they were friends and used to ride for the same team?

Anyway, if it was a regular thing that countrymen would help each other I would probably complain about that as well, but I don't think it is. Even if Contador was helped by a Spaniard in 2012, it can hardly be because of Nationalism as the guy Contador had attacked was from Spain as well (as was the third placed rider). When it comes to individuals helping other individuals from different teams because they are friends outside of cycling or that sort of stuff (anything but both liking Rugby, really) I will probably still complain when the collaborate against one of my favorites, but generally I accept it. The big difference between that and trade-teammates helping each other in the worlds is that there is no system behind it.

It's never gonna pay off to be such a nice guy that the whole peloton wants to help you. But if you are in the strongest team throughout the season that could then suddenly pay off in the worlds as well. What message would it send if Roglic empties himself to the extent of not even being capable of following the group to the finish? What if that sort of behavior becomes the norm? There are no rules prohibiting it and it's pretty much impossible to make any. That's the danger. That in a few years, on a flat parcours we think, "oh man Gaviria doesn't really have too many Colombian teammates to control it on the flat, but it's not too bad, he has enough teammates from different countries who should be able to do the job", and what some Belgians expected from Roglic would have been the first step in that direction.

Iirc it was in the 2012 Olympics when Bernhard Eisel told the media pre race that he was gonna work for Cavendish, which basically just made me think "why the f#ck did the Austrians waste one of their few spots with Eisel" but also "why the f#ck does a guy who would actually have an outside chance to get a medal just throw it away". Eisel was by far Austrias best shot in that race.
That sort of stuff just shouldn't happen and I'm glad it didn't happen with Roglic yesterday.
It was in that groups entire best interest to close the gap as soon as possible. Otherwise the 4 of them are sprinting for 3rd place behind Van Aert. I'm pretty sure Roglic didn't even do the least work in that group. He also said would've wanted Van Aert to win if he couldn't, but he just was completely empty by the time they crested the final climb. The fact that his turns were weak and he got last in the sprint by some margin shows that.
 
Roglič deciding "screw Slovenia, I'ma work for Van Aert" wouldn't have been nationalism. The army of Belgians complaining about this however is very much nationalism.
And does anyone imagine that the same people would be filled with admiration for the beautiful gesture of personal solidarity of a captain of a Belgian national team, who the Belgians had worked for all day, deciding in the finale of a WCRR to work for a trade team mate from another country? Most of them would want a Belgian team leader who did that tried for actual treason.
 
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Roglic was not on the same team as van Aert so he shouldn't have pulled for him. There would have been outrage if he had. However I don't remember any complaints when Colombians pulled for Quintana on AdH and when everyone and their mother pulled for Contador on Angliru. I think we're more comfortable with loyalty among fellow countrymen rather than loyalty between puppets of a capitalist ogre.
 
Roglic was not on the same team as van Aert so he shouldn't have pulled for him. There would have been outrage if he had. However I don't remember any complaints when Colombians pulled for Quintana on AdH and when everyone and their mother pulled for Contador on Angliru. I think we're more comfortable with loyalty among fellow countrymen rather than loyalty between puppets of a capitalist ogre.
I think it's also because we think of the "people" who would feel let down, if someone works for their trade-team-mate instead of his fellow countrymen. Personally I don't care about the German national team, but the general consensus is that guys in their national team kits "represent" their nation, while in a team kit they only represent some companies, who in addition, in cycling, can change very fast.
 
I'm not sure I'm allowed to say this out loud (at least not in Belgium) but I'm a Belgian who is really glad Alaphilippe won as I am a big DQS fan.

Don't get me wrong, I'm proud of my country and if Alaphilippe (or any other DQS rider) wouldn't be in the mix, I'd gladly support Van Aert or another Belgian rider to win but since I am supporting the DQS riders 364 days of the year I am also going to support them at the Worlds especially since it gives a chance to have the rainbow jersey in the team for a whole year. I highly prefer to see a DQS rider in the rainbow jersey for the whole year no matter the nationality than a Belgian rider on any other team.

That said, I do think if, as a rider, you are selected for your country you should give it your all to help your countrymen. If you doubt you'll be able to do just that you better refuse your selection, as Devenyns did.
 
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There was a point where a large group of favourites separated itself from a reduced peleton by 50 metres or so. Polanc (I think it was him) was constantly looking around to see if Roglic had made it to the group. It looked like he was chomping at the bit to ride on the front of the group for Roglic. But Roglic didn't bridge. In the end Polanc started gesticulating in obvious annoyance at the situation. He was probably thinking about how Pogacar had sacrificed himself and Roglic wasn't taking this opportunity. As it turned out, probably the right decision by Roglic considering the move didn't go anywhere and he didn't have the legs to follow speculative moves. I mention this to highlight how the Slovenian teammates would have felt if Roglic had ended up sacrificing his own chances to ride for someone from another nation. I could imagine the likes of Polanc thinking he'll never do more than he has to for Roglic in any future Worlds. They wouldn't have known what we know - that he'd end up last in that group anyway. Remember also that Slovenia had a couple of guys taking turns in the wind for much of the early part of the race. The Slovenian press would be all over Roglic considering there's bound to be a feeling that Pogacar might have actually won if he hadn't attacked early. There are scenarios where it's possible to help a trade teammate without it being too obvious or having implications within the rider's own team, but this wasn't such a time in my view.
 
Roglic was not on the same team as van Aert so he shouldn't have pulled for him. There would have been outrage if he had. However I don't remember any complaints when Colombians pulled for Quintana on AdH and when everyone and their mother pulled for Contador on Angliru. I think we're more comfortable with loyalty among fellow countrymen rather than loyalty between puppets of a capitalist ogre.
I think those things are usually derided and frowned upon when they happen, but we don't usually get media campaigns and indignant fans making a big deal out of it.
 
Wasn't the main guy helping Contador on Fuente De the Italian Tiralongo and he did it because they were friends and used to ride for the same team?

Anyway, if it was a regular thing that countrymen would help each other I would probably complain about that as well, but I don't think it is. Even if Contador was helped by a Spaniard in 2012, it can hardly be because of Nationalism as the guy Contador had attacked was from Spain as well (as was the third placed rider). When it comes to individuals helping other individuals from different teams because they are friends outside of cycling or that sort of stuff (anything but both liking Rugby, really) I will probably still complain when the collaborate against one of my favorites, but generally I accept it. The big difference between that and trade-teammates helping each other in the worlds is that there is no system behind it.
Yes Tiralongo and Contador rode together for Astana. A year prior Contador had helped Tiralongo win a stage at the Giro as a reward for his help during their time on the same team. Tiralongo in return was quick to come to Contador's aid on the Fuente Dé stage. Clearly it is a good idea to be on good terms with your teammates and colleagues, as you never know when you'll need a favor.

FWIW, I think there would have been no issue if Roglic had sacrificed his chances for Van Aert as a reward for Van Aert's work at the Tour, in fact it could have been a nice gesture. However, I also don't think Roglic was required to do so, after all he is riding his own race for his own country. Doing someone a favor does quickly lose its meaning if it can be hold against you if you decide not to.
 
Roglic was not on the same team as van Aert so he shouldn't have pulled for him. There would have been outrage if he had. However I don't remember any complaints when Colombians pulled for Quintana on AdH and when everyone and their mother pulled for Contador on Angliru. I think we're more comfortable with loyalty among fellow countrymen rather than loyalty between puppets of a capitalist ogre.
It's different on AdH and Angliru as the riders who helped Quintana and Contador had been dropped/caught and had zero chance of getting anything from the stage. They had nothing to lose by helping. Yesterday, Roglic was still very much in the hunt for a medal.

Also that situation with Gallopin and Thomas was so stupid. You don't chase your own teammate just because you and another guy are fond of rugby.
 
TGBM put in a lot of work for Dumoulin on one of the stages of the Giro Tom won, but that was a situation where he and his team didn’t lose anything by doing it. If I recall correctly there were other riders in their group who also pulled seemingly for no better reason than liking Dumoulin.
 
TGBM put in a lot of work for Dumoulin on one of the stages of the Giro Tom won, but that was a situation where he and his team didn’t lose anything by doing it. If I recall correctly there were other riders in their group who also pulled seemingly for no better reason than liking Dumoulin.
IIRC that was on the stage Pinot where won and where Dumoulin/Bauke were a bit behind. Mollema and Jungels were riding for their own GC so they had something to gain.
 
Just reading through this thread - very slowly - now, so this point of discussion may have been bought up, but anyway, what are your thoughts on cyclists working for others, arguably because they are from the same nationality, when they are not on the same trade team?

Something like Fuente De 2012 Vuelta, a Spaniard working with Contador who was on a different team? Not saying it's right or wrong, but I think it's an interesting area of discussion. Maybe in that instance he thought Contador might help him win the stage (even if only a slim chance)?
More recently, we had Team France trying to help Pinot catch Martinez in the final stage of the Dauphine. Unofficial alliances, based on friendship, nationality, past favours, the hope of future favours, or simply liking a sport that is popular in someone's home country, happen, and in as much as helping a rider close a gap might improve the helper's final position, it is consistent with the basic sporting goal of improving one's result. But it can never be an expectation or obligation.
 
Anybody else thinks Van Aert should've pulled more? I mean he was the fastest guy there, by far, and thus the reason for others not to go full gas. And he clearly had strength, evident by the last two pulls at autodrom and that final sprint. If he had pulled like a madman, others would work too, sensing an opportunity for them.
No, the Belgians analyzed it and it's clearly Roglic's fault. :D
 
Anybody else thinks Van Aert should've pulled more? I mean he was the fastest guy there, by far, and thus the reason for others not to go full gas. And he clearly had strength, evident by the last two pulls at autodrom and that final sprint. If he had pulled like a madman, others would work too, sensing an opportunity for them.
I agree. He had to throw the others a bone at least. Put in a few really long and really hard pulls to get the gap down to 5 seconds or so. He would have run the risk of blowing up, but like you said, it was also beneficial to him for others in the group to suspect that he might blow up.

I also still think that, for his long term prospects, he should have soft pedalled the sprint and feigned tiredness. All that the ridiculous powerful sprint for 2nd did is reinforce the feeling that it's pointless for other riders to work with him.
 
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Anybody else thinks Van Aert should've pulled more? I mean he was the fastest guy there, by far, and thus the reason for others not to go full gas. And he clearly had strength, evident by the last two pulls at autodrom and that final sprint. If he had pulled like a madman, others would work too, sensing an opportunity for them.
I need to rewatch to make sure I have the riders right, but I think was a period on the last lap when Dumoulin had pulled a small group just clear and he initially refused to pull it. That's very possibly a race-winning move if he does pull that group clear, I think- more understandable if I/the commentary misidentified one of the Belgian workhorses.

I agree. He had to throw the others a bone at least. Put in a few really long and really hard pulls to get the gap down to 5 seconds or so. He would have run the risk of blowing up, but like you said, it was also beneficial to him for others in the group to suspect that he might blow up.

I also still think that, for his long term prospects, he should have soft pedalled the sprint and feigned tiredness. All that the ridiculous powerful sprint for 2nd did is reinforce the feeling that it's pointless for other riders to work with him.
It was criticized for possibly losing him the race but Trentin putting in hard turns at Yorkshire despite having Moscon in the group kept it cohesive. It didn't hurt that it was a group of three by the end, obviously, for the "well, if I'm outsprinted, I still get a medal" factor.
 
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Anybody else thinks Van Aert should've pulled more? I mean he was the fastest guy there, by far, and thus the reason for others not to go full gas. And he clearly had strength, evident by the last two pulls at autodrom and that final sprint. If he had pulled like a madman, others would work too, sensing an opportunity for them.
Absolutely. No questions asked. And maybe Roglic should have return the favor to him although some people get mad about that issue. But such is life.
 
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