2021-23 Emerging Riders CQ Game

[Jakob747]

Very difficult choises this year with so many cheap neoproriders from last year that normally would have been too expensive now after a normal season, and then also a lot of jokers comming from other sports all very tempting to pick but all also very risky like Zwiehoff, Palzer, Romo and Vigo where I ended up only going for Vigo, despite his injury, as he seemed the most hyped with most chances to ride for himself, and since his team sounded like they had expected a topresult from him in his first race if not for the injury. Then some extremely talented 18 year old riders like Umba and Ayusu that normally are too young, but with so great talents that I did not dare not to selct them. Ayusos junior results last year were just brutal and almost reminds me of Valverdes spanish juniordominance and Umbas debut was just so impressive besides the usual next-Bernal hype so he had to get a spot too, and also since he should be allowed to ride a lot for himself on his team.

This really shows how my attention has dropped off a bit lately. Had I checked the results (and age) of Umba, he would have been in my team. Barely 18 and 4th in Tachira! And strong results in Europe as a 1st year junior. When I'm not paying attention, I think I'm blind to the Savio hype. Vigo, on the other hand, seems a bit too much of a wildcard for me. Though I have to admit I hardly researched him at all. I'm getting lazy.

I didn't pick Umba for this edition - not because I don't believe in his talent, I simply just wanted to build something a little different this time around. Focusing on more unique choices and then hopefully see one of them hit super-star status within this 3-year span.

Friday there was an interview-style portrait with Simon Pellaud on Ciclismo en Grande and I will add the part where Pellaud spoke about Umba down here below. Basically, Pellaud says he never in his life seen such a promising talent, he sees a big future in Umba if he keeps working calmly and methodically.

 

[MADRAZO]

So between us it's gonna be about:


ARDILA ORDOÑEZ Andres Camilo
BRUNEL Alexys
CARR Simon
UMBA LOPEZ Abner Santiago
VIGO DEL ARCO Marti

vs.

HELLEMOSE Asbjørn
ZWIEHOFF Ben
RUBIO REYES Einer Augusto
WALLS Matthew
BERWICK Sebastian

Must say I'm not too confident there. Ardila and Umba would both probably have been in my team if I had not forgotten about this game for a couple of weeks. Brunel was in my team at some point, but then I watched a video of his Besseges win, and it was from a (admittedly impressive) solo attack, so it became less of a predictor of a good future in my eyes. He's actually been on my radar since he was a junior, but he hasn't really followed up as an U23 and a pro.

The only one I'm really happy that you don't have is Rubio. I think he is quite underrated.

Rubio was also amongst my main candidates for the last spots and has been one of my favourite talents earlier, and he is in my 2020-2022 team, but I was just dissapointed with him last year, but I guess he still was doing a lot better than Ardila and he could still make a big breakthrough. It will be a interesting battle between those 2.

Funny enough about Brunel I actually also saw that video just the other day checking how the stage 1 finish looked, and was also dissapointed it was not from the peloton he won (I had only seen the last 100 meter previously in a short tvsegment where it seemed (and sounded like) it was from the peloton so I had that same revelation but only after the deadline) But oh well, still his time trial in the same race was impressive and it also just seemed like they believed a lot in him, also before GP Marseillaise (even if he dissapointed there), so I still have some hope there even if I might not have picked him if I had seen that correctly earlier.

Walls was also in my picture, but I guess in the end I was too afraid he would end up as a leadout primaraly, but that fate could just as well end up being for Meuss, with more leadout-experience, instead.

Hellemose finally seems interesting with his rides in Italy, despite some injury or illness setbacks even if I recall correctly, but I figured he was a bit behind here not having a procontract next year yet, so I never considdered him much here, but he could be a good joker for you.

Berwick was a option too, in the end I just did not know enough about him and did not want to overinterprete that Sun Tour result last year.

 

[Woutje]

Yes Romo sounds very interesting also but as you mention is a big risk. I do also think the teamroles were mostly what held me back on him and also Zwiehoff and Palzer (where they spoke a lot about them becomming mountaindomenstics) compared to Vigo that should get more chances for himself early on if he is as good as hoped.

Where did you read Zwiehoff and Palzer will be domestiques? I think they can become clear leaders and that Palzer won't go on with cycling if he will just be a domestique....

 

[MADRAZO]

I didn't pick Umba for this edition - not because I don't believe in his talent, I simply just wanted to build something a little different this time around. Focusing on more unique choices and then hopefully see one of them hit super-star status within this 3-year span.

Friday there was an interview-style portrait with Simon Pellaud on Ciclismo en Grande and I will add the part where Pellaud spoke about Umba down here below. Basically, Pellaud says he never in his life seen such a promising talent, he sees a big future in Umba if he keeps working calmly and methodically.

Sounds promessing still for Umba, but yes this game is also a good chance to pick some unique riders, you have some riders picked I havent even heard of before so they need to be reserached some later on. It will be impressive if one of them indeed turns out to be a super star in 3 years, I think if the game were 5 years instead it would suit your knowledge of the less known young Columbians more.

Im surpriced also you did not pick Ardila after you picked him in the maingame, which helped myself confirm he needed to get a chance again here, despite the bad season last year, but I suppose that is also part of the same reason perhaps?

 

[MADRAZO]

Where did you read Zwiehoff and Palzer will be domestiques? I think they can become clear leaders and that Palzer won't go on with cycling if he will just be a domestique....

I think it was in Boras own-statements about the signings, but the helping-parts might primaraly have been from Zwiehoff. And I also think for both that they said they had big potential in the future but would just start focusing on becomming helpers in the mountains but for sure for both the hope was that they could indeed also be topriders themselved in the future.

This quote was from Zwiehoff from Boras homepage

"I can hardly wait to learn from the team’s vast experience and to develop myself further. I am highly motivated to be able to contribute to the team’s success as a helper in the mountains. As the biggest bike race in the world, the Tour de France has always been a dream of mine, so let's see if I can one day be a part of it.” - Ben Zwiehoff "

and from PAlzer:

"The most important goal now will be to integrate myself well into the team, to learn as much as possible from my new teammates and to put myself in the service of the squad. The challenges for me personally are, on the one hand, embarking on the development from individual sportsman to team player: "

 

[Jakob747]

Sounds promessing still for Umba, but yes this game is also a good chance to pick some unique riders, you have some riders picked I havent even heard of before so they need to be reserached some later on. It will be impressive if one of them indeed turns out to be a super star in 3 years, I think if the game were 5 years instead it would suit your knowledge of the less known young Columbians more.

Im surpriced also you did not pick Ardila after you picked him in the maingame, which helped myself confirm he needed to get a chance again here, despite the bad season last year, but I suppose that is also part of the same reason perhaps?

Yeah, I sincerely doubt 3 years is enough as well, however it's part of the fun taking some chances I guess. Then again I honestly don't mind finishing in the bottom half as a consequence.

Berwick was a option too, in the end I just did not know enough about him and did not want to overinterprete that Sun Tour result last year.

For me, Berwick is the real deal. Hell of a climber. Also, remember Berwick almost died after crashing on his way home from a club-training in 2014. His tire blew coming down a hill, and he went straight into the back of a parked vehicle. He punctured both lungs, sustained nerve damage to his left arm, broke his collar bone, six ribs, fractured six areas of his spine, and lacerated his spleen, kidney, and liver.

18 months later he came back and almost won the elite event on Mount Coot-tha. Which is a two-kilometer stretch with an average gradient of nine percent. Berwick was only beaten by 1 sec by Australian domestic super climber Matt Clark, Berwick pulverized the record time in the youth categories.

Kid is legit!!!

 

[Jakob747]

Im surpriced also you did not pick Ardila after you picked him in the maingame, which helped myself confirm he needed to get a chance again here, despite the bad season last year, but I suppose that is also part of the same reason perhaps?

Yeah, I just wanted to spread the risks a little, and go all out on a limb. However, I still believe in Ardila! and I think we will see him race much better this season.

 

[skidmark]

Did anyone else seriously consider taking the much-hyped youngster Cian Uijtdebroeks? I was putting together my team and remembered that in some analyses by AC in the past, some of the top scorers (on the Collective Ignorance team) by year 3 didn't even really score in year 1 that they raced. Figured it might be fun to have a wildcard stashed away, but in the end decided not to go with it.

I am wary of the youngster hype, although Evenepoel and (to a much lesser, but still impressive degree) Quinn Simmons are proving to be worth it, I'm mindful that more often than not the youth hype is a crapshoot. Like when it was common wisdom that Caleb Ewan and Silvio Herklotz would be the hottest things in cycling (worked out for one of them), or how Coen Vermeltfoort had the most power anyone had ever seen, or Oskar Svendsen the greatest VO2 max, or Adrien Costa, etc. There are just so many ways it can turn out. I'm inclined to think even the most talented 18-year-old going straight to the WT will have a first two years more like Matej Mohoric than Remco.

On the other hand, when I remember picks I've made in this game that have gone nowhere (like, I think I picked Clement Chevrier and when he didn't score much his first year I doubled down and picked him again, for example), why didn't I go out on a limb and take him? Maybe I'll track how I would have done with him compared to David Dekker or something. But anyway, I thought about it, just wondering if anyone else had!

 

[Squire]

Wow, now I know one pick I should have made!

 

[Cordi333]

Rubio was also amongst my main candidates for the last spots and has been one of my favourite talents earlier, and he is in my 2020-2022 team, but I was just dissapointed with him last year, but I guess he still was doing a lot better than Ardila and he could still make a big breakthrough. It will be a interesting battle between those 2.

Didn't you like his Giro d'Italia? I think he did good for a debutant, specially in the last mountain stage, wich for me is important as was a real hard one and after 3 weeks in the legs, which was a first for him.

Ardila had a bad season, yes. I doesn't mean necessarily nothing as 2020 was a strange year and anyone has setbacks, but as there were a lot of my 20-22 team still available and I wanted to introduce new riders, he was eventually one of the riders droped out (the others were Juanpe, Vansevenant, Piccolo and Tiberi).

 

[Cordi333]

Anyway, the most similar teams are Ludwig and mine. It's kinda funny as we use to have some sort of a beef in Parlamento Ciclista, the spanish forum

Our differences are only 4:
LUDWIG: Zwiehoff, Piccolo, Tiberi & Umba.
CORDI: Rubio, Schelling, Jorgenson & Sheffield.

As I said, Zwiehoff was to risky for me even knowing that his test results show that he has some engine. Piccolo and Tiberi didn't adapt to u23 as good as I expected, so I think they won't take inmediately the WT by storm, more like a calm adaptation. And about Umba maybe I'm going to regret, but as I did my team in december, I felt bad about dropping one rider I was satisfied with just over the deadline. That rider would have been probably Tullett, as he was the 18th in my list, and is a rider I'm some sort of a fan because of his cx backround (I've already dropped a very promising Vervaerke to make room for him).

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I forgot to post the opening scores in the most important element of the game:

CN Crew 11.8 ; Team VeloRooms 6.1


CN Crew:
Blues_in_the_Bottle
Bminchow
Comodoro
Fivezzz
Greenedge
HugoKoblet
Jakob747
JonEzeitza
Jpettersen
Karaev
Kazistuta
Koronin
Kryvo
Laarsland
LosBrolin
Ludwigzgz
Madrazo
MuddyWaters
Nakazar
Northerner
Nyssinator
Ray10
Rufs
SafeBet
Skidmark
Squire
Vladimir
YellowKnight

Team VeloRooms:
AmisVelo
Cordi
Josedin
Leadbelly
LukasCPH
Otoxiep87
RoteLaterne
Scrooll07

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I considered Uijtdebroeks, at least enough to check how to spell his name (I didn't want to upset the game organiser by getting it wrong, but found too many other options (while apparently still missing several that it appears I should have had).. I was also quite keen on trying to include double Irish Champ Ben Healy, but I see that would have been a unique pick, and so I was probably wise not to.

 

[Cordi333]

I forgot to post the opening scores in the most important element of the game:

CN Crew 11.8 ; Team VeloRooms 6.1


CN Crew:
Blues_in_the_Bottle
Bminchow
Comodoro
Fivezzz
Greenedge
HugoKoblet
Jakob747
JonEzeitza
Jpettersen
Karaev
Kazistuta
Koronin
Kryvo
Laarsland
LosBrolin
Ludwigzgz
Madrazo
MuddyWaters
Nakazar
Northerner
Nyssinator
Ray10
Rufs
SafeBet
Skidmark
Squire
Vladimir
YellowKnight

Team VeloRooms:
AmisVelo
Cordi
Josedin
Leadbelly
LukasCPH
Otoxiep87
RoteLaterne
Scrooll07

And Equipo Parlamento would be:

Comodoro
JonEzeitza
Kryvo
Ludwigzgz
MuddyWaters
Cordi
Josedin

 

[MADRAZO]

Wow, now I know one pick I should have made!

Plapp I presume, I was also very tempted but ended up finding him a bit too risky, also with fairly slow development of other Australain talents. But I regret that too now also.

 

[MADRAZO]

Didn't you like his Giro d'Italia? I think he did good for a debutant, specially in the last mountain stage, wich for me is important as was a real hard one and after 3 weeks in the legs, which was a first for him.

Ardila had a bad season, yes. I doesn't mean necessarily nothing as 2020 was a strange year and anyone has setbacks, but as there were a lot of my 20-22 team still available and I wanted to introduce new riders, he was eventually one of the riders droped out (the others were Juanpe, Vansevenant, Piccolo and Tiberi).

It was not a bad Giro but I had still hoped for more, and afterall he was older here than Pogacar was in the 2019 Vuelta so I just felt hopes of a big breakthrough was a lot smaller now. He will for sure still become a good rider though.

 

[MADRAZO]

Did anyone else seriously consider taking the much-hyped youngster Cian Uijtdebroeks? I was putting together my team and remembered that in some analyses by AC in the past, some of the top scorers (on the Collective Ignorance team) by year 3 didn't even really score in year 1 that they raced. Figured it might be fun to have a wildcard stashed away, but in the end decided not to go with it.

I am wary of the youngster hype, although Evenepoel and (to a much lesser, but still impressive degree) Quinn Simmons are proving to be worth it, I'm mindful that more often than not the youth hype is a crapshoot. Like when it was common wisdom that Caleb Ewan and Silvio Herklotz would be the hottest things in cycling (worked out for one of them), or how Coen Vermeltfoort had the most power anyone had ever seen, or Oskar Svendsen the greatest VO2 max, or Adrien Costa, etc. There are just so many ways it can turn out. I'm inclined to think even the most talented 18-year-old going straight to the WT will have a first two years more like Matej Mohoric than Remco.

On the other hand, when I remember picks I've made in this game that have gone nowhere (like, I think I picked Clement Chevrier and when he didn't score much his first year I doubled down and picked him again, for example), why didn't I go out on a limb and take him? Maybe I'll track how I would have done with him compared to David Dekker or something. But anyway, I thought about it, just wondering if anyone else had!

I considdered him shortly but quickly dropped him as the results just did not seem to live up to that hype he had and even if he has signed from 2022 with Bora I also just always prefer to take riders that has a procontract right away and that was the most deciding thing.

Another one with no procontract next year that I considdered a lot was Felix Gross and Im surpriced no one has picked him after his Polish dominance in Juli. If he focusses on the road after the olympics as I would guess he could become very interesting, but again also very risky.

I was also tempted to go for someone like Eli Iserbyt and gamble he might switch to the road in 2022 perhaps like others have done, but still in the end that seemed like too big a risk.

By the way, I also thought Chevrier was a big talent once! But yes I guess many talents also ends up like him with a very mediocre career where they just stagnate way too early.

 

[MADRAZO]

For me, Berwick is the real deal. Hell of a climber. Also, remember Berwick almost died after crashing on his way home from a club-training in 2014. His tire blew coming down a hill, and he went straight into the back of a parked vehicle. He punctured both lungs, sustained nerve damage to his left arm, broke his collar bone, six ribs, fractured six areas of his spine, and lacerated his spleen, kidney, and liver.

18 months later he came back and almost won the elite event on Mount Coot-tha. Which is a two-kilometer stretch with an average gradient of nine percent. Berwick was only beaten by 1 sec by Australian domestic super climber Matt Clark, Berwick pulverized the record time in the youth categories.

Kid is legit!!!

Ouch! Did not know that, it will be interesting to follow him for sure.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

And Equipo Parlamento would be:

Comodoro
JonEzeitza
Kryvo
Ludwigzgz
MuddyWaters
Cordi
Josedin

OK: decide among yourselves whether you each want to be doubly represented or whether you are withdrawing from the forum that you used for your submission (so will Cordi be on both Team VeloRooms and Equipo Parlamento, or will is he resigning from TVR) and get back to me.

 

[Ludwigzgz]

Another one with no procontract next year that I considdered a lot was Felix Gross and Im surpriced no one has picked him after his Polish dominance in Juli. If he focusses on the road after the olympics as I would guess he could become very interesting, but again also very risky.

You are not the only one. But he needs to be signed by a team. Maybe next year

 

[Squire]

It was not a bad Giro but I had still hoped for more, and afterall he was older here than Pogacar was in the 2019 Vuelta so I just felt hopes of a big breakthrough was a lot smaller now. He will for sure still become a good rider though.

You're getting spoilt by all the wonderkids.
If this was five years ago, Rubio would be hailed as the next big thing after that Giro. Would probably have won the breakaway stage with De Gendt and Ganna if he didn't upset TDG, and he was pretty awesome in one of the final mountain stages. Okay results in small races too, and that is where I hope he'll score his points in the beginning.

 

[Cordi333]

OK: decide among yourselves whether you each want to be doubly represented or whether you are withdrawing from the forum that you used for your submission (so will Cordi be on both Team VeloRooms and Equipo Parlamento, or will is he resigning from TVR) and get back to me.

For me it doesn't matter, I'm cool also with the VeloRooms guys. I've just asked the others in the spanish forum.

 

[MADRAZO]

You're getting spoilt by all the wonderkids.
If this was five years ago, Rubio would be hailed as the next big thing after that Giro. Would probably have won the breakaway stage with De Gendt and Ganna if he didn't upset TDG, and he was pretty awesome in one of the final mountain stages. Okay results in small races too, and that is where I hope he'll score his points in the beginning.

You are right we have all been spoiled a lot lately by those wonderkids its bizare times when riders almost have to go directly from junior to pro to remain considdered in the supertalent-category and when one think of 22 old talent like Rubio as stagnated after a absolutely decent Giro.

 

[jon ezeitza]

I think I have accumulated 142 points to date. But I don't know if there are many or few. I look forward to the first update .

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Year 1, month 2 February 2021

Maybe this cohort will have a relatively unaffected run at their three seasons in the game.

Rider	Pts this month	Teams	Source
SKJELMOSE JENSEN Mattias	80​	1 (JPettersen)​	6th in UAE
PLAPP Lucas	79​	4​	National Champs (TT winner)
DEKKER David	78​	25​	two 2nds and a 4th and green jersey in UAE
VANSEVENANT Mauri	50​	23​	8th in Provence
CULLAIGH Gabriel	40​	2(Blues in the Bottle & Koronin)​	7th in Almeira
FISHER-BLACK Finn	30​	5​	National champs TT win
SCHELLING Ide	30​	6​	11th in KBK + others
CARR Simon	23​	6​
BERWICK Sebastian	22​	6​
JORGENSON Matteo	22​	17​
OLDANI Stefano	22​	9​
TULETT Ben	22​	8​

Rank this month		Pts this month	Main scorers
1	Greenedge	294​	Plapp/Dekker/Vansevenant/Oldani/Jorgensen
2	Nyssinator	281​	Plapp/Dekker/Vansevenant/Oldani
3	JPettersen	262​	Skjelmose/Dekker/Vansevenant/Oldani
3	SafeBet	262​	Plapp/Dekker/Schelling/Tulett/Jorgensen
5	JonEzeitza	256​	Dekker/Vansevenant/Schelling/Oldani/Jorgensen
6	Kazistuta	234​
7	Scrooll07	222​
8	Blues_in_the_Bottle	221​
9	Nakazar	217​
10	Fivezzz	215​
11	Madrazo	202​
12	Skidmark	199​
12	Squire	199​
14	Northerner	191​
15	Karaev	190​
16	AmisVelo	187​
17	Bminchow	186​
18	Ray10	182​
19	Otoxiep87	181​
19	RoteLaterne	181​
21	Comodoro	174​
21	LukasCPH	174​
23	Jakob747	173​
24	HugoKoblet	170​
25	Josedin	167​
26	Cordi	148​
27	Laarsland	139​
28	MuddyWaters	133​
29	Rufs	128​
30	Leadbelly	112​
31	Ludwigzgz	105​
32	YellowKnight	104​
33	Koronin	96​
34	Armchair_Cyclist	95​
35	Vladimir	84​
36	Kryvo	77​
37	LosBrolin	31​
	CollectiveWisdom	208​
	CollectiveIgnorance	498​
	MainGame2021	195​

Standings
Last month's scores were so low that the change in position is of little relevance: this month's might not mean a lot more by late 2023.

Rank	Team	Total	Change in position
1​	Greenedge	306	7​
2​	Nyssinator	281	12​
3​	SafeBet	274	5​
4​	JPettersen	262	10​
5​	Nakazar	261	-2​
6​	JonEzeitza	256	8​
7​	Skidmark	247	-5​
8​	Jakob747	242	-7​
9​	Kazistuta	234	5​
10​	Scrooll07	222	4​
11​	Blues_in_the_Bottle	221	3​
12​	Fivezzz	215	2​
13​	Madrazo	214	-5​
13​	Ray10	214	-7​
15​	Squire	199	-1​
16​	Northerner	191	-2​
17​	Karaev	190	-3​
18​	AmisVelo	187	-4​
19​	Bminchow	186	-5​
20​	Otoxiep87	181	-6​
20​	RoteLaterne	181	-6​
22​	Josedin	179	-14​
23​	Comodoro	174	-9​
23​	LukasCPH	174	-9​
25​	HugoKoblet	170	-11​
26​	MuddyWaters	165	-20​
27​	Leadbelly	149	-22​
28​	Cordi	148	-14​
29​	Laarsland	139	-15​
30​	Rufs	128	-16​
30​	Vladimir	128	-27​
32​	Ludwigzgz	117	-24​
33​	YellowKnight	104	-19​
34​	Koronin	96	-20​
35​	Armchair_Cyclist	95	-21​
36​	Kryvo	77	-22​
37​	LosBrolin	43	-29​
	CollectiveWisdom	208
	CollectiveIgnorance	617
	MainGame2021	207

A third team has entered our battle of the forums: our Spanish contingent from Parlamento Ciclista, consisting of Comodoro, Jon Ezeitza, Karaev, Ludwigzgz, Muddy Waters (all also on the CN team), Cordi and Josedin (both also on the Velorooms team).

Average scores so far:
CN Forumites 191
Team VeloRooms 178
Equipo Parlamento 176

Still a long way to go... track it here