2021 Giro d'Italia, Stage 19: Abbiategrasso - Alpe di Mera 166 km

[Bonimenier]

They will still have a hard time beating Roglic and Pogacar in the Tour. They won one grand tour last year in the weakest Giro field seen for years and they may only win one GT this year and their one day results are poor. That's hardly dominance even if they have the strongest squad in most stage races.

But the fact that they did that with TGH of all people shows how strong they are in numbers.

 

[Mayomaniac]

If its cold & wet tomorrow the shine may go out of Simon

 

[limak_]

Bernal has been great this Giro. He was also excellent in the Tour he won, even though his big race-winning attack came under odd circumstances. Pogacar's only GT win, so far, also came in unusual circumstances, including but not limited to Bernal's back injury taking him out of the race. You can only beat whoever's on the start line with you.

So at this point, we really haven't seen a true Pogacar vs Bernal race in a GT, so it's very early to say if one or other is better. I think actually the suspense might make it better when it does finally happen.

Btw in a real world it's almost impossible to have a "true" race between two guys. There will always pop up a crash, stage cancellation or someone's back etc

We could only have a true race in that terms if we'd put both of them on Zwift but then some rower or triathlete would pop up and crush them into pieces

 

[Breezy1985]

But the fact that they did that with TGH of all people shows how strong they are in numbers.

And we're in seconds of winning the Vuelta with the 3rd choice GC man

 

[movingtarget]

But the fact that they did that with TGH of all people shows how strong they are in numbers.

Hindley was second in the Giro..............

 

[Bonimenier]

Hindley was second in the Giro..............

That's not the point. Nobody is denying that it was the weakest GT in a long time.

 

[jmdirt]

I was wondering why Logic wasn't posting today, then I noticed that he is BANNED! Ruhro Rastro! I must have missed something?

I feel like this has been an interesting race for many reasons, but reading through this thread makes me think that...oh, never mind.

 

[movingtarget]

That's not the point. Nobody is denying that it was the weakest GT in a long time.

Of course its the point. Everyone knew that Hindley had no chance in the final TT. In a better field GH wouldn't have won and he can thank Dennis for the win anyway.

 

[Bolder]

Through attrition this has turned out to be a pretty slim group of contenders. Only Yates and Almeida are on rising form, Martinez to a degree; Caruso and Foss are holding firm but the rest, including Bermal, have faded in the third week.

Still, the biggest disappointments remain Bennett, Carthy and Bardet, Carthy in particular has been invisible (and slowly going backward). Martin, too, floundered so much in the sterrato -- he must be kicking himself right now for missing that big split.

Biggest surprises to me are Caruso, Foss and Almeida -- I did not see Almeida being so strong.

I think Bernal is rather weak right now. He looked utterly spent today. Usually when he's feeling good he's got a little spark in his eyes. He's vulnerable on the final climb, I think.

 

[Bonimenier]

Of course its the point. Everyone knew that Hindley had no chance in the final TT. In a better field GH wouldn't have won and he can thank Dennis for the win anyway.

I don't think it's nice of you to decide what the point of my post was.

On the other hand it's pretty funny that you deny that they are dominant in stage races by saying that TGH won the Giro because of a teammate.

 

[limak_]

I think Bernal is rather weak right now. He looked utterly spent today. Usually when he's feeling good he's got a little spark in his eyes. He's vulnerable on the final climb, I think.

Imho Bernal looked confident and just focused on keeping high steady tempo, never getting himself into red too much. Also after the finish he looked "fresh". He's jut learned a lesson last time and didn't make the same mistake this time.

 

[movingtarget]

I don't think it's nice of you to decide what the point of my post was.

On the other hand it's pretty funny that you deny that they are dominant in stage races by saying that TGH won the Giro because of a teammate.

I''m saying they don't dominate the results sheets at least since Bernal won the Tour. New riders have come along and Froome has gone so even though they have the best team they can still be beaten. If they win this Giro as expected that will be two of the last five grand tours but the Tour will be harder for them to win. Jumbo has a strong team and Pogacar is a special talent. Of course you can also argue that they have dominated the Tour since 2012 with seven of the past nine won but the season isn't just about the Tour.

 

[staubsauger]

Tao went for it on Stelvio together with Dennis. Hindley didn't. The Australian neither had the panache to attack on the final ascend to Lake Cancano, nor the class to let Geoghegan Hart take his signature victory if he's just sitting on his wheel.

Because if any second counts than you at least try to distance him by attack no matter if Kelderman's behind.

The same team that told Hindley to conduct this stupid behavior, now sent him to the Giro d'Italia injured.

Most beautiful grand tour victory Sky / Ineos has archived by far. The super-domestique sensing his once in a lifetime chance to win a big one and he actually archives it by offensive racing.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Copeland to RAI: "Simon doesn't care about the podium. We'll try to win the race tomorrow. It's hard because we lost Schultz and Nieve is injured, but perhaps we can get some help from other teams."

That's great news for fans. We can witness a long range attack indeed even if it ends up with Yates being dislodged from the podium.

 

[yaco]

That's great news for fans. We can witness a long range attack indeed even if it ends up with Yates being dislodged from the podium.

That would be the height of stupidity - You need to be patient to see if Caruso and Bernal are off form.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

That would be the height of stupidity - You need to be patient to see if Caruso and Bernal are off form.

If Yates cares only about victory and not about the podium then an attack on the last climb is too late. He should try earlier - it's not stupidity but the only right tactic.

 

[johnymax]

Caring about a podium while already having GT win in your palmares? That would be a real lack of ambitions

I agree with you. But still, other than the Vuelta win, he has no other podium finishes. I'd expect it still means a lot to him to finish for the first time on the Giro podium. I don't think many riders would act the same in a similar situation. That is if I interpreted correctly those words. Meaning he'll go allin for the win and doesn't care if he ends up 2nd or 8th in the end. And at the end of the day, those are only Copeland's words. Let's see what reality brings us tomorrow.

 

[carton]

I think between BE and DQS they measured it pretty much as best they could with the resources they had. If either team had one more climber available to work Martinez over before launching the attacks, it would've been nice, but once Knox pulled over they had to go.

They needed to keep gambling. Carthy or Caruso or someone would have taken it up. Even if they hadn't, Yates could've taken those same 30s on those last 2km and saved himself a hell of an effort. As well as he's riding, Yates is human, too.

He needs to be within a minute of Bernal to have a real chance of winning on Sunday. And he won't take a minute and a half on Alpe Motta unless Bernal has already cracked so hard you could hear it from Milan. So he needs to go from 35km out at the latest tomorrow. Seems like a tough ask after going all out on the last two MTFs.

 

[Leinster]

I''m saying they don't dominate the results sheets at least since Bernal won the Tour. New riders have come along and Froome has gone so even though they have the best team they can still be beaten. If they win this Giro as expected that will be two of the last five grand tours but the Tour will be harder for them to win. Jumbo has a strong team and Pogacar is a special talent. Of course you can also argue that they have dominated the Tour since 2012 with seven of the past nine won but the season isn't just about the Tour.

It can't be denied that Ineos, even without Froome, are still a massive force in Grand Tour bike racing, and stage racing in general. Froome won his last GT in the 2018 Giro. Ineos have won 3 GTs with 3 different riders since then, been a runner-up with another guy, and are currently on course for a 4th GT win in 3 years at the current Giro. Even saying "last year's Giro was weak..." proves the point; when all the teams in the race were weakened, the Ineos squad were the ones who put together the performance and pulled out the win for one of their domestiques. Let's not forget that one of the factors in weakening the 2020 Giro field was Geraint Thomas crashing out.

 

[staubsauger]

It can't be denied that Ineos, even without Froome, are still a massive force in Grand Tour bike racing, and stage racing in general. Froome won his last GT in the 2018 Giro. Ineos have won 3 GTs with 3 different riders since then, been a runner-up with another guy, and are currently on course for a 4th GT win in 3 years at the current Giro. Even saying "last year's Giro was weak..." proves the point; when all the teams in the race were weakened, the Ineos squad were the ones who put together the performance and pulled out the win for one of their domestiques. Let's not forget that one of the factors in weakening the 2020 Giro field was Geraint Thomas crashing out.

The main-factor was Carapaz being called to France as Bernal's super-domestique!
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Even with his far from ideal preparation he still might've beaten Roglic at the Vuelta a Espana if there had been a proper last mountain stage instead of La Covatilla.

It's not hard to imagine that the 2020 Giro d'Italia would've been a walk in the park for a full-peak Carapaz. Even though he's been clearly a step behind the two Slovenians so far this season.

 

[Leinster]

They needed to keep gambling. Carthy or Caruso or someone would have taken it up. Even if they hadn't, Yates could've taken those same 30s on those last 2km and saved himself a hell of an effort. As well as he's riding, Yates is human, too.

He needs to be within a minute of Bernal to have a real chance of winning on Sunday. And he won't take a minute and a half on Alpe Motta unless Bernal has already cracked so hard you could hear it from Milan. So he needs to go from 35km out at the latest tomorrow. Seems like a tough ask after going all out on the last two MTFs.

I think it was important, at the stage that Almeida attacked, to put the Ineos doms to work. Just leaving it to Caruso to tow the group would have given Martinez a pass for a couple more kms. And once Almeida attacked, it made complete sense for Yates, Caruso etc to follow, especially when it took Martinez and Bernal a while to haul back up.

 

[carton]

I think it was important, at the stage that Almeida attacked, to put the Ineos doms to work. Just leaving it to Caruso to tow the group would have given Martinez a pass for a couple more kms. And once Almeida attacked, it made complete sense for Yates, Caruso etc to follow, especially when it took Martinez and Bernal a while to haul back up.

All that was good to see, I agree. Where I think the Giro might have been decided was when Bernal kept his head cool and his place on the train, and when Yates went hot over the top of Almeida.

 

[shalgo]

I think Bernal's back is bad. I noticed him get out of the saddle only once on the climb. Compare that to his climbing style on stage 9 or stage 14, where he was standing on the pedals as much as Yates. Bernal did a great job maintaining a steady pace today and minimizing his losses. The question is just whether his back can hold out for one more stage.

 

[Leinster]

All that was good to see, I agree. Where I think the Giro might have been decided was when Bernal kept his head cool and his place on the train, and when Yates went hot over the top of Almeida.

Again, Yates had to pressure Martinez.

If Yates had stayed with the Almeida group and let Martinez drag Bernal back up, then once the join was made, Martinez could have dialled it back a couple of watts and recovered for a little bit. By being off the front, Yates made Martinez work harder, and Bernal take it up sooner.

I'm not going to say anyone was tactically perfect, but most of what everyone did on the final climb today made sense in the situation they were in.

 

[johnymax]

To be fair, there's a lot of recency bias involved in almost every GT. People often remember who was the strongest and most attacking rider in the last week and think of him as the most deserving winner. They always want (unless you are a fan of the rider fading) the guy who comes from behind to make the turnaround and win. People quickly forget how dominant the other rider was in the first part of a GT. In this specific situation Bernal. He was dominant in the first half of the Giro and now can ride defensively. Even if he loses a minute here and there to Yates, it doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the win. He does. So does Simon. And even Caruso, if he manages to be very strong tomorrow and on Sunday, he wouldn't have stolen anything. Ok, then it stops there. Maybe Almeida also wouldn't have been called a thief either. The others would become big burglars if one of them wins, though. Lol