profff said:
Ah, but would it beat the Rombo-Rettenbachferner duet that is just BEGGING to be used?
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Ah, but would it beat the Rombo-Rettenbachferner duet that is just BEGGING to be used?
definitely they should look at a mountain stage in massif central with a summit finish up puy de dome or somewhere like that. would really like to see a summit up pic du midi via the tourmalet or a summit up the Col de Rosael. iseran is a likely possibility. there's speculation about the col du jandri being looked into for a stage in a couple of years - could use alpe d'huez (if the sarrene stage is successful this year) or the galibier in that stage also. It'd be good to see some steep summits in the tour for mybe a stage or two like these:
http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Col=Montée-La-Savonne&qryMountainID=10666
http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Col=Mont-Prorel&qryMountainID=12001
http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Col=Les-Lacs-Bessons&qryMountainID=12780
http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Col=Montée-La-Savonne&qryMountainID=10666
http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Col=Mont-Prorel&qryMountainID=12001
http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Col=Les-Lacs-Bessons&qryMountainID=12780
Fixed. Thanks for noticing it. The Izoard-Granon combo is quite hard but the Galibier-Granon could make the same results. And that's why it should return: after 180+ kilometers, climbing the last climb that goes over 2000m.profff said:
The problem with these is you're not sure the Tour could go there, and mostly for three reasons:nick101 said:
- The climbs are unpaved, and could be very narrow (and I doubt they'll do a Balès again after all the controversy there were after Planche des Belles Filles and Sarenne)
- They sometimes end up in protected zones (like national parks), as a proof, the Pont d'Espagne finish in 1995 had to be moved to Cauterets
- The place at the finish might be not enough to park all the cars.
By the way the profiles are quite false as people just drawn straight lines instead of following the "roads" which could just be mere dirt tracks where mountain bikes could barely go...
To talk about Jandri (aka Glacier du Mont de Lans), this is kinda hard to discuss. People always say "a stage finish is considered up there in some years, the station could pave all the climb to the top". The problem is that's always talked but never done. Of course we'd love to see some climb like this in the Tour de France, going above 3000 meters. But this is more of a fan fantasy than a realistic project. The second part of the climb is unpaved and is 13.5 km at 10.9 % average, which already takes place immediately after a 1st category climb (13 km @ 7.2 %) without any descent.
First of all, the Tour never takes unpaved roads (except for the cobbled roads of the Paris-Roubaix)
Secondly, if the road has to be paved all the way up, it would be useful only 2 months per year (july-august) as the rest of the time it would be covered by meters of snow. It would be a financial problem for a small interest for the station.
Thirdly, if they had to pave this, they surely would smoothen up some very steep ramps (like they've did with Plan Lachat on the Galibier by going around).
And finally, there must be the place to park all the cars. I'm pretty sure there is, but it's kinda hard to see.
So it's a fantasy we nearly all have (cycling fans, fictional race designers...), but to be realist, there's nearly no chance to see it one day in the Tour de France. Every "the Tour has considered it" or "the Giro wants to go for it" is a pure rumor. That's why I'm not gonna include Jandri in my list. I'm gonna keep only one unpaved climb, and it will be my #20.
#5: Signal de Bisanne (Savoie)
The taller brother of Saisies
The Col des Saisies is a rather known pass in the Tour de France. Climbed 11 times since 1979, and being a 1st category difficulty, it also offers a beautiful scenery and a large road, quickly making it a classic for the "Grande Boucle". But if this road is taken quite often, there's something in the west that should definitely being worth a detour. And what's even more strange is no professional cycling race even tried to pass through it at least once, not even the smaller but famous Critérium du Dauphiné. And to add even more to the mystery, this thing goes higher and harder than the Saisies.
So why no race dared to adventure themselves into this climb? The road is in good condition, and its difficulty, while being far superior to the Saisies, doesn't put it in the impossible climb category. But it's definitely, by today's standards, an HC ascent. The Signal de Bisanne, topping at 1934 meters high, offers a great challenge, while being just a few clicks away from the Saisies. But it's kinda hard to write down an history of this climb, because the legend has never been established here. It doesn't even have a Wikipedia page! But what's sure is it could really be another classic in the Tour de France, and is the perfect alternative to the col des Saisies, like the Hourquette d'Ancizan is to the col d'Aspin.
Top: 1934 m
Length: 14.4 km
Ascent: 1229 m
Average gradient: 8.5 %
Climbbybike Difficulty score: 145
This is the hardest side of the Signal, and also the most praticable. There's other roads coming to the top that are a little bit more irregular, but they are easier. So let's just focus on the Villard-sur-Doron side, which offers a quite long climb with a strong steepness, and with ramps coming up to 13 %. However, it's useful to know that the last two kilometers lead to the summit of the climb, which is a dead end and wouldn't probably take all the vehicles required for the logistics of a cycling race like the Tour de France or even the Dauphiné. They're the hardest two, but still, even without them the climb offers a great challenge to anyone who tries to climb it.
The Signal, after a few kilometers, nearly never comes back under 9 % average, but there's a good amount of hairpin turns (13) that can give a bit of fresh air. The road is also most of the times inside a forest, but after the station of Bisanne 1500, there's no more trees to protect ourselves against the sun and the wind. There's no place to take shelter, all the way up to the intersection at 1700 meters high. To the left, the final two kilometers, averaging 10.5 %, still without any protection against the elements. To the right, a small descent towards the Saisies.
Maybe the Tour is afraid that the Signal de Bisanne completely replaces the Saisies, because of its harder nature. But that's just a supposition. Right now, the dark grey road of the Signal still hasn't seen a yellow jersey, if we except the amateurs who wear a yellow-colored outfit. But here's again another challenge the peloton could face in the next years, if ASO notices it for their next races.
The taller brother of Saisies
The Col des Saisies is a rather known pass in the Tour de France. Climbed 11 times since 1979, and being a 1st category difficulty, it also offers a beautiful scenery and a large road, quickly making it a classic for the "Grande Boucle". But if this road is taken quite often, there's something in the west that should definitely being worth a detour. And what's even more strange is no professional cycling race even tried to pass through it at least once, not even the smaller but famous Critérium du Dauphiné. And to add even more to the mystery, this thing goes higher and harder than the Saisies.
So why no race dared to adventure themselves into this climb? The road is in good condition, and its difficulty, while being far superior to the Saisies, doesn't put it in the impossible climb category. But it's definitely, by today's standards, an HC ascent. The Signal de Bisanne, topping at 1934 meters high, offers a great challenge, while being just a few clicks away from the Saisies. But it's kinda hard to write down an history of this climb, because the legend has never been established here. It doesn't even have a Wikipedia page! But what's sure is it could really be another classic in the Tour de France, and is the perfect alternative to the col des Saisies, like the Hourquette d'Ancizan is to the col d'Aspin.
Top: 1934 m
Length: 14.4 km
Ascent: 1229 m
Average gradient: 8.5 %
Climbbybike Difficulty score: 145
This is the hardest side of the Signal, and also the most praticable. There's other roads coming to the top that are a little bit more irregular, but they are easier. So let's just focus on the Villard-sur-Doron side, which offers a quite long climb with a strong steepness, and with ramps coming up to 13 %. However, it's useful to know that the last two kilometers lead to the summit of the climb, which is a dead end and wouldn't probably take all the vehicles required for the logistics of a cycling race like the Tour de France or even the Dauphiné. They're the hardest two, but still, even without them the climb offers a great challenge to anyone who tries to climb it.
The Signal, after a few kilometers, nearly never comes back under 9 % average, but there's a good amount of hairpin turns (13) that can give a bit of fresh air. The road is also most of the times inside a forest, but after the station of Bisanne 1500, there's no more trees to protect ourselves against the sun and the wind. There's no place to take shelter, all the way up to the intersection at 1700 meters high. To the left, the final two kilometers, averaging 10.5 %, still without any protection against the elements. To the right, a small descent towards the Saisies.
Maybe the Tour is afraid that the Signal de Bisanne completely replaces the Saisies, because of its harder nature. But that's just a supposition. Right now, the dark grey road of the Signal still hasn't seen a yellow jersey, if we except the amateurs who wear a yellow-colored outfit. But here's again another challenge the peloton could face in the next years, if ASO notices it for their next races.
Thanks Netserk,
They would be great stages assuming a few minor difficulties (and major length) in front of them. Who said the Alpes were boring?
They would be great stages assuming a few minor difficulties (and major length) in front of them. Who said the Alpes were boring?
It's like the western version of the Saisies.
I've always wondered why stage races don't finish in Les Saisies. Well, except for l'Avenir last year.
I've always wondered why stage races don't finish in Les Saisies. Well, except for l'Avenir last year.
Beaufort - Hauteluce - Les Saisies is the traditional version of the Saisies
Edit: that is the middle of the 3 routes
Edit: that is the middle of the 3 routes
Thanks Netserk for all the little information you bring to this thread. It's much appreciated. 
By the way, you can retrieve easily each climb on the list I've made on the first post.
By the way, you can retrieve easily each climb on the list I've made on the first post.
It's easy when you do all the hard workLinkinito said:Thanks Netserk for all the little information you bring to this thread. It's much appreciated.
I've always wondered why they didn't take the left of those routes. Sure, you lose out the steepest part of Bisanne, but you get most of it and it's tougher than the "conventional" side of Saisies (and higher too), so you can use it as a linking climb in a longer stage à la the 2009 Tour queen stage, possibly the only good thing about that race. If the ASO has it's love of doubling up on climbs, it would be great to see Saisies north, then descend to Beaufort and do Signal, or even better to do Saisies via Bisanne 1500 then descend to Les Saisies via the intersection Netserk points out, then descend the conventional side of Saisies and climb to the Signal de Bisanne to finish.
This could be done either conventionally via the Cormet de Roseland, allowing a link to Iseran or Petit St Bernard, or my personal preference, to come straight off the Col des Cyclotouristes, a narrow but totally unused and excellent climb just above Albertville. My personal preference would be to approach Albertville from Madeleine, because that's the best of the Tour's perennial favourites to my mind.
Something like this (St Jean de Maurienne - Signal de Bisanne):
That's short, of course - so you could always add something else beforehand, or Tamié between Madeleine and Cyclotouristes.
This could be done either conventionally via the Cormet de Roseland, allowing a link to Iseran or Petit St Bernard, or my personal preference, to come straight off the Col des Cyclotouristes, a narrow but totally unused and excellent climb just above Albertville. My personal preference would be to approach Albertville from Madeleine, because that's the best of the Tour's perennial favourites to my mind.
Something like this (St Jean de Maurienne - Signal de Bisanne):
That's short, of course - so you could always add something else beforehand, or Tamié between Madeleine and Cyclotouristes.
Libertine Seguros said:Something like this (St Jean de Maurienne - Signal de Bisanne):
That's short, of course - so you could always add something else beforehand, or Tamié between Madeleine and Cyclotouristes.
Ain't nobody got legs for that.
BigMac said:
Why not? I had a chat with a few race directors, who came back with some suggestions.
Michele Acquarone suggested it was pretty good but perhaps didn't need the gimmickry of twice the same climb, so maybe Madeleine + Cyclotouristes + Bisanne would be enough.
Javier Guillén pointed out that there are flat valley roads I could have taken instead of Madeleine, so why didn't I just go through them as far as Villard-sur-Doron, or at the most have Forclaz before the MTF?
Angelo Zomegnan insulted me and called me a coward for not adding an extra loop with Glandon or Croix-de-Fer first, and also remarked that he "spits upon these puny gradients". He told me he liked the Granon and Mont du Chat, but they weren't quite steep enough, and suggested that we rip up the tarmac on L'Abérouat for the Pyrenéan stages.
Christian Prudhomme asked me why the hell I was using these unconventional climbs when I could have done Madeleine, then flat until the conventional route up Saisies, then a descent and 30km flat into Cluses, and also whether this would best be matched up to an Alpe d'Huez MTF or a Montgenèvre-Sestrière double.
Hahahahaha! At first I thought you really had contact with the directors, but then I realized it was a joke. Anyway, here's a hint for today's climb.Libertine Seguros said:
#6: Col de la Pierre Carrée (Haute-Savoie)
The asymmetric climb
Okay, no climb can be perfectly symmetric. There will be always some differencies between each side to climb a difficulty. Just look back at the Mont du Chat, which has two sides that are radically different, but are both really difficult and are still quite long (17 and 14 km). But today's climb is kinda unique, as it ends up in a high-altitude basin, that is the home to the winter sports station of Flaine. The backdrop at the top is stunning, and the descent towards Flaine is short... Really short. Only 3 kilometers long, which means the same amount of minutes for the skilled downhill racers.
The Col de la Pierre Carrée (in english: Pass of the Squared Rock) is located in the Haute-Savoie, between Cluses and Chamonix. Despite not being so far from the Mont Blanc, the mountains that form the basin doesn't allow the riders that managed to reach the top of the pass to see it. But nevertheless, if offers a great panorama and makes us are completely surrounded by mountains after the descent. But no professional race went on its roads, neither the Tour or the Critérium du Dauphiné.
This climb might not be as steep as some behemoths presented here this week, but it's length and its regularity also make it a potential Hors Category climb. Let's take a look at its hardest side, starting from Balme.
Top: 1844 m
Length: 21.1 km
Ascent: 1344 m
Average gradient: 6.4 %
Climbbybike Difficulty score: 128
As you can see, it's not as steep or hard as Mont du Chat or Col du Granon, but it has a very long length and has a high ascent, that makes this climb demanding. There's actually three phases in this climb: the first kilometers are the hardest, with a 8.4 % peak during one kilometer. Then, a rather easy part, up to the half of the climb, follows: the slopes never go above 7 % and have around 5 % average gradient. Then, the second half of the climb comes to the rider, with 10 more kilometers at 6.5 % average and with peaks at 9 %, the slopes being easier as the top comes closer.
It might be a rolling climb, like the ones toward La Toussuire or Risoul, but it goes high and its length still gives some challenge to this. It could also be preceded by climbs like Col de la Colombière and Col de Romme, which offer steep gradients all the way, and are known by the Tour de France, and ASO. However, going through the Pierre Carrée probably needs a finish in Flaine, as there's other way down. If the city of Flaine gets interested by cycling, the Col de la Pierre Carrée could be another classic for french cycling races.
The asymmetric climb
Okay, no climb can be perfectly symmetric. There will be always some differencies between each side to climb a difficulty. Just look back at the Mont du Chat, which has two sides that are radically different, but are both really difficult and are still quite long (17 and 14 km). But today's climb is kinda unique, as it ends up in a high-altitude basin, that is the home to the winter sports station of Flaine. The backdrop at the top is stunning, and the descent towards Flaine is short... Really short. Only 3 kilometers long, which means the same amount of minutes for the skilled downhill racers.
The Col de la Pierre Carrée (in english: Pass of the Squared Rock) is located in the Haute-Savoie, between Cluses and Chamonix. Despite not being so far from the Mont Blanc, the mountains that form the basin doesn't allow the riders that managed to reach the top of the pass to see it. But nevertheless, if offers a great panorama and makes us are completely surrounded by mountains after the descent. But no professional race went on its roads, neither the Tour or the Critérium du Dauphiné.
This climb might not be as steep as some behemoths presented here this week, but it's length and its regularity also make it a potential Hors Category climb. Let's take a look at its hardest side, starting from Balme.
Top: 1844 m
Length: 21.1 km
Ascent: 1344 m
Average gradient: 6.4 %
Climbbybike Difficulty score: 128
As you can see, it's not as steep or hard as Mont du Chat or Col du Granon, but it has a very long length and has a high ascent, that makes this climb demanding. There's actually three phases in this climb: the first kilometers are the hardest, with a 8.4 % peak during one kilometer. Then, a rather easy part, up to the half of the climb, follows: the slopes never go above 7 % and have around 5 % average gradient. Then, the second half of the climb comes to the rider, with 10 more kilometers at 6.5 % average and with peaks at 9 %, the slopes being easier as the top comes closer.
It might be a rolling climb, like the ones toward La Toussuire or Risoul, but it goes high and its length still gives some challenge to this. It could also be preceded by climbs like Col de la Colombière and Col de Romme, which offer steep gradients all the way, and are known by the Tour de France, and ASO. However, going through the Pierre Carrée probably needs a finish in Flaine, as there's other way down. If the city of Flaine gets interested by cycling, the Col de la Pierre Carrée could be another classic for french cycling races.
You said I had at least 1 from the ones I requested, I have at least 2 at this point (definitely Lusette and Pierre Carrée). Pierre Carrée isn't a super brutal climb but it's a proper HC in that 20+km and 6+% is a challenge regardless. I remember from the Great Unknown Climbs thread, people saying that there was too much focus on climbs with super tough gradients like Crostis, Errozate, Silzer Sattel or Kehlsteinstraße, and not enough on long tough climbs like Coll de Pal, Sanetsch, Fonte da Cova etc. - though of course you can combine the two with the likes of Samnaun, Mangart, Fumanya-Pradell or Collado de las Sabinas.
hautacam has been a decisive climb in the past for the tour so you guys could add that to the list, joux plan also but I think that's a cat 1 and not hc. are iseran, bonnette and puy de dome down? I strongly recommend them if not.
as for the super steep climbs I suggested before, I obviously doubted that prudholme will use them in his time as director. more just a mention for distant future use, because I believe that the jandri and rosael WILL be used, maybe not for another ten years or so especially with the work required to prepare them. eventually someone will have the idea of using different climbs/steeper climbs at the tour, (as at the tour its mostly a rotation of the same or similar climbs, and different/new climbs are generally ignored despite having potential), and being innovative like the previous giro director did (zomagen?). he innovated the use of an mtt for the giro btw. but its bound to eventually happen, just not for a long time
as for the super steep climbs I suggested before, I obviously doubted that prudholme will use them in his time as director. more just a mention for distant future use, because I believe that the jandri and rosael WILL be used, maybe not for another ten years or so especially with the work required to prepare them. eventually someone will have the idea of using different climbs/steeper climbs at the tour, (as at the tour its mostly a rotation of the same or similar climbs, and different/new climbs are generally ignored despite having potential), and being innovative like the previous giro director did (zomagen?). he innovated the use of an mtt for the giro btw. but its bound to eventually happen, just not for a long time
Nothing much to add, but wanted to say thanks guys for an excellent thread - especially Linkinito of course!
nick101 said:
1996 - Bjarne Riis smashed the opponents on this climb at the end of stage 16
Ride to forget said:
I share this sentiment
nick101 said:
The list is composed of climbs where the Tour never went, or at least during 20 years. Joux Plane is definitely HC from the south side but it was last climbed in 2006. Iseran's last passage was in 2007, and Bonette's last time was in 2008, effectively ruling them out of the list.
Puy de Dôme is a special case. Of course, it hadn't been climbed by the Tour for 25 years. But it's now definitely, and forever, ruled out. At first, there was a financial problem between the organizers and the "owners" of the Puy-de-Dôme, and also, for environmental reasons. Then, 5 years ago, they decided, as a part of a new project, to replace the road going to the summit by a rack railway. There's still a safety road but this one is way too narrow to welcome the Tour again. As Jean-François Pescheux stated, the Tour will never climb again the Puy de Dôme.
The Puy de Dôme was the only HC climb of the Massif Central, and no climb, except Lusette from its hardest side, could also be HC in these mountains.
Anyway, thanks for your support, it's much appreciated.
Here's the hint for today's climb:
Try to guess which one it is!
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