2nd at Le Tour vs 1st at Il Giro.

[Arnout]

You mean the Dutch don't rate Kenny above *random Giro winner*? Wouldn't be surprised if they do. If only because they don't know who this Giro winner (say, Basso) is.

I dunno but when I start about cycling my conversation partners usually know more than I would've guessed. When they're a little bit in the sport they value guys like Simoni more than Van Hummel yes. And then I'm talking about the average Tour-cycling fan.

About Giro vs Tour audience: Giro was somewhere in May, it was rainy. The Tour in Rotterdam was just a pre party to the quarter or semi finals of the WC, lots of people combined that. The media and general attention for our Dutchies winning one lucky match after another cost le Grand Depard interest but brought it numbers.

And anyway people who know nothing about the sport aren't interesting. Its like saying Germany is not important because the average American cannot pinpoint it on the map

 

[The Hitch]

You just need to look at the numbers to know that isn't true. But who cares, it worked on tv, apparently.

Yes, the Giro use special effects to make it appear like there are more crowds

Im sure none of these people are real either. (other than Nibali)

Where can I find these numbers btw?

 

[Arnout]

He was talking specifically about Giro vs Tour numbers in the Netherlands in 2010.

 

[The Hitch]

He was talking specifically about Giro vs Tour numbers in the Netherlands in 2010.

Yes, and... ?

 

[hfer07]

this is why the Schleck brothers are so annoying ...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/no-giro-ditalia-for-the-schleck-brothers

“The problem is that we race a lot ... If we do a training at altitude, we must remove some races from our program, such as the Tour of the Basque Country.“In that case, we would not be ready for the classics. In addition, for this to be beneficial, the internship should last three to four weeks.”

One thing is to deceive your opponents-other is to bvllsh!t yourself by saying "we race a lot"-funniest comment I've read recently from them.
BTW- they seem grasp the "Bruyneel treatment" -which includes no racing at all until the tour........

 

[El Pistolero]

this is why the Schleck brothers are so annoying ...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/no-giro-ditalia-for-the-schleck-brothers



One thing is to deceive your opponents-other is to bvllsh!t yourself by saying "we race a lot"-funniest comment I've read recently from them.
BTW- they seem grasp the "Bruyneel treatment" -which includes no racing at all until the tour........

Well, he never said they tried hard in the races they rode, but they do ride a lot. What does FS mean by internship by the way?

 

[roundabout]

I would guess that in this context internship is time spent at altitude.

 

[hfer07]

Well, he never said they tried hard in the races they rode, but they do ride a lot. What does FS mean by internship by the way?

that's precisely the matter of their constant failure-they lack tactical skills-they need to be told what to do-they seem to be unable to read a race properly -and Why is that? Because they just don't race enough throughout the year-they simply show up to the early races with the mare purpose of "training" -then come April & both only get serious about the Ardennes-and then what?- a trip to Cali to "chill out" and have fun and drinks-then just a quick tune up during the TDS before the Tour & then after another podium in July-they're gone-even if they show up at the Vuelta-the whole world knows they're done for the entire season- Is that what you call "racing"???

"Internship" I interpret it as a "recruitment" for the Altitude training camps....

 

[gregrowlerson]

Casey Stoner
Chris Hoy
Alberto Contador
Marianne Vos

what do I win?

He is even underated in his home country also.

 

[gregrowlerson]

The Giro '09 route frustrated me much more than this one. That was a total mockery.

Really? I like the parcours of the '09 Giro a lot. Possibly the best route that I've seen (even better that Giro '10 where the race was more created by the riders themselves). Has there been a more unique stage profile than stage 5?

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2009//giro09/?id=stages/giro095

As well as the descending and climbing the stage was only 125 kms in length.

Stages 4, 5, 6 & 7 (another crazy descent one) were all interesting layouts; all in week ONE!

They mix things up even more by having the traditional finishing flat stage as stage 9 (Milan). Then we have this:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2009//giro09/?id=stages/giro0910

Epic in its length and terrain.

And stage 12 being a genuinely long and VERY lumpy ITT. I will go over the rest of the route later, but really, for me this route is bloody amazing!

Though of course, everyone is unique and entitled to their opinion

 

[gregrowlerson]

Stages 14 and 15 offer intriguing medium mountains, then typical Giro high mountain epicness on 16&17; the latter being just 83 kms long too.

Stage 19 on the volcano MTF was good, difficult climb, and then the short ITT to finish. Maybe you could say that this should be longer, but to me the Giro is traditionally more for the pure climber (whereas the TDF more for the allrounder), so the ITT kms in this parcours was practically perfect.

 

[theyoungest]

Yes, the Giro use special effects to make it appear like there are more crowds

Im sure none of these people are real either. (other than Nibali)

Where can I find these numbers btw?

Giro start Amsterdam: 150,000 people.
Tour start Rotterdam: 450,000 people.

And bear in mind that the Giro prologue went through parts of Amsterdam which attract thousands of visitors every day, Giro or no Giro. The south of Rotterdam isn't that crowded in the first place.

I dunno but when I start about cycling my conversation partners usually know more than I would've guessed. When they're a little bit in the sport they value guys like Simoni more than Van Hummel yes. And then I'm talking about the average Tour-cycling fan.

I'm yet to meet the average "I only watch the Tour"-fan who has heard of Simoni.

 

[Eshnar]

Giro start Amsterdam: 150,000 people.
Tour start Rotterdam: 450,000 people.

I'd be hesitant to trust these numbers... when it comes to cycling, newspapers can only guess them.
Just think of the number of the people on the Zoncolan last year... For some sources it was 500,000, for others 200,000... for others 50,000

 

[airstream]

Really? I like the parcours of the '09 Giro a lot. Possibly the best route that I've seen (even better that Giro '10 where the race was more created by the riders themselves). Has there been a more unique stage profile than stage 5?

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2009//giro09/?id=stages/giro095

As well as the descending and climbing the stage was only 125 kms in length.

Stages 4, 5, 6 & 7 (another crazy descent one) were all interesting layouts; all in week ONE!

They mix things up even more by having the traditional finishing flat stage as stage 9 (Milan). Then we have this:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2009//giro09/?id=stages/giro0910

Epic in its length and terrain.

And stage 12 being a genuinely long and VERY lumpy ITT. I will go over the rest of the route later, but really, for me this route is bloody amazing!

Though of course, everyone is unique and entitled to their opinion

For me, it was a letdown particulary as for the mountains. The thing is in fact there were no the classic Giro climbs with gradient over 9%. RCS arguably built such a route purposely so that Armstrong'd really wanted to ride, as far as I understand this. Alpe di Siusi came out to be pretty dull and honestly it looked easier than on paper. Plus a panoramic non-GC stage Cuneo-Pinerolo. They initially seemed to present the hardest version of the Blockhaus, 27km, 7.3% av, but we saw a mere apology of it. That Blockhaus looked like a rouleur climb actually. In short the Giro included the only one real mountain stage, to Monte Petrano, and the Vuelta style one to Vesuvio.

 

[Eshnar]

For me, it was a letdown particulary as for the mountains. The thing is in fact there were no the classic Giro climbs with gradient over 9%. RCS arguably built such a route purposely so that Armstrong'd really wanted to ride, as far as I understand this. Alpe di Siusi came out to be pretty dull and honestly it looked easier than on paper. Plus a panoramic non-GC stage Cuneo-Pinerolo. They initially seemed to present the hardest version of the Blockhaus, 27km, 7.3% av, but we saw a mere apology of it. That Blockhaus looked like a rouleur climb actually. In short the Giro included the only one real mountain stage, to Monte Petrano, and the Vuelta style one to Vesuvio.

I just made a thread for this. I suggest to leave this thread to his own subject.

 

[theyoungest]

I'd be hesitant to trust these numbers... when it comes to cycling, newspapers can only guess them.
Just think of the number of the people on the Zoncolan last year... For some sources it was 500,000, for others 200,000... for others 50,000

These are the most conservative guesstimates (certainly for the Tour, other sources say one million people...)

 

[roundabout]

that's precisely the matter of their constant failure-they lack tactical skills-they need to be told what to do-they seem to be unable to read a race properly -and Why is that? Because they just don't race enough throughout the year-they simply show up to the early races with the mare purpose of "training" -then come April & both only get serious about the Ardennes-and then what?- a trip to Cali to "chill out" and have fun and drinks-then just a quick tune up during the TDS before the Tour & then after another podium in July-they're gone-even if they show up at the Vuelta-the whole world knows they're done for the entire season- Is that what you call "racing"???

"Internship" I interpret it as a "recruitment" for the Altitude training camps....

Ok, I've seen the word 'they' used often, so I am going to defend Frank. Let's list the races he had top-10 in outside of Ardennes and the Tour in the years that he was scheduled to ride the Tour

2 races in Mallorca, Paris-Nice, Suisse, 3-Länder -Tour, Lombardia, Volta Valenciana, Criterium International, Pais Vasco, Bayern-Rundfahrt, Poland, Worlds, Emilia, Sabatini, Haut Var, Luxembourg, Primavera,San Sebastian

So, no Schlecks are not a singular two-headed entity.

 

[theyoungest]

Ok, I've seen the word 'they' used often, so I am going to defend Frank. Let's list the races he had top-10 in outside of Ardennes and the Tour in the years that he was scheduled to ride the Tour

2 races in Mallorca, Paris-Nice, Suisse, 3-Länder -Tour, Lombardia, Volta Valenciana, Criterium International, Pais Vasco, Bayern-Rundfahrt, Poland, Worlds, Emilia, Sabatini, Haut Var, Luxembourg, Primavera,San Sebastian

So, no Schlecks are not a singular two-headed entity.

Absolutely, Fränk is a genuine racer. Andy is the guy who shows up with miraculous form at his season goals, and doesn't do anything elsewhere (although this year his form wasn't that miraculous, in Liege Fränk was even slightly stronger).

 

[Parrulo]

Absolutely, Fränk is a genuine racer. Andy is the guy who shows up with miraculous form at his season goals, and doesn't do anything elsewhere (although this year his form wasn't that miraculous, in Liege Fränk was even slightly stronger).

ya pretty much.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

The Wiggins who finished 3d at the Vuelta could certainly do the same in the Giro... he got 5th on Angliru, which is harder than any Giro climb.

i don't agree. I mean maybe it is harder then any climb - tho zoncolan is questionable - but the field is better at the giro,I don't see him getting 5th there. I don't see somelike poels taking 2nd place on zoncolan at the giro either.

Sure all that affects very seriously. Nibali said he hadn't liked the Tour due to a wild boom despite on his 6th place. Perhaps all riders barring Andy choose races, that suit them most

No Italians really do love the giro, many of these italians race the giro because it is thier number 1 race.

For Andy, another second in le tour would be painful...but of course he's not thinking second going into it. I have another hypothetical: Would it be the worst case senario if Andy committed to il Giro and came in second?

I'd respect him for giving it a go regardless.

he said hed rather win the olympics in his sport. We dont know what that is but maybe walkman can tell us. Personaly though I think the Gold medal in olympics is big. It had possibly the best startting line up for any race in ages.

Generally a lot of them are on post-tour legs, not a whole lot will really concentrate thier goals on thos, not to the extent riders to for gts, classics and worlds.

IMO worlds is a much bigger deal. And they generally get a very good field also. Just about the best field.

You'd rather win the Olympics over the WC? Personally I don't rate the Olympics in cycling. My view is that a cyclist would rather win a GT, the rainbow jersey or a monument than a gold medal. I guess in the media the olympics is a bigger so you do have a point.

Im with ya on this one.

A win in the Giro will be remembered for longer. Hence, I would say that Andy should go for the Giro, because he has a real chance of winning there, while he might podium in France.

as seen in the cn front page he wont, instead he'd rather train more race less.

I can't even even begin to describe how much of a chump this guy is, I really hope this kid never wins the tour.

I'd be interested to know, obviously the French think that winning Le Tour is the pinnacle of achievement, I know enough Italians to know that they consider Il Giro comes way ahead of Le Tour in terms of achievement, but do the Spanish feel the same about the Vuelta?

Not to sure, but it certainly isn't to teh same extent of the italians.

These days winning the Giro is better than winning the Tour. Unlike the Tour, the Giro uses a real GT route.

Prestige aside it is the race I look most forward to.

 

[The Hitch]

Generally a lot of them are on post-tour legs, not a whole lot will really concentrate thier goals on thos, not to the extent riders to for gts, classics and worlds.

IMO worlds is a much bigger deal. And they generally get a very good field also. Just about the best field.



Im with ya on this one.
.

As with the worlds and the Vuelta, post Tour legs are a good thing. Post Tour riders have the best chance. The winner placed decent in the TDF classification aferall. Like Classica San Sebastian too, usually post Tour riders do the best.

And as I pointed out, I don't think world champions get half the glory as Olympic gold medal winners.

Cancellara was named Swiss sportsman of the year when he won olympic tt gold but his awesome 2010 season only got him 5th.

Cavendish world championship victory was called a warmup for the olympic race.

Sammy, as I showed, got a huge reception when coming back with the medal. you dont see people coming home in the rainbow jersey get that sort of greeting. He even has a statue in Oviedo now.

And if you win it, you get called the olympic champion pretty much everytime you get mentioned, for the next 4 years.

Its very big.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

cancelrella comparison is peanuts without him winning road race worlds.
Also in 2010 Ammann had a very good year. Thus he won.

And in regards to the vuelta comparison, the difference is many riders use the vuelta soley for the worlds (how many mass-exodus have we seen?). While the olympics is just the after thought.

Cavendish warm-up victory?... really?.... the british media I couldn't care less. They generally just talk dribble, no doubt looking forward to the euro 2012 favorites england crashing and burning. I can start using australian media as an exampel if you like.

Again I don't disagree that it is big, I just disagree it is bigger then the worlds.
I don't think many riders priortize like this either.

 

[The Hitch]

cancelrella comparison is peanuts without him winning road race worlds.
Also in 2010 Ammann had a very good year. Thus he won.

And in regards to the vuelta comparison, the difference is many riders use the vuelta soley for the worlds (how many mass-exodus have we seen?). While the olympics is just the after thought.

Cavendish warm-up victory?... really?.... the british media I couldn't care less. They generally just talk dribble, no doubt looking forward to the euro 2012 favorites england crashing and burning. I can start using australian media as an exampel if you like.

Again I don't disagree that it is big, I just disagree it is bigger then the worlds.
I don't think many riders priortize like this either.

Federer had pretty much the same year 2008 and 2010 but he lost to Canc in 2008 and beat him in 2010.

And what about Spain. Sammy probably got more press out of his 1 olympic gold than Freire did out of his 3 worlds, and thats in cycling's 3rd or 4th biggest country.

Dont like the Vuelta comparison, use San Sebastian then. I doubt anyone rides the TDF to be on form for San Sebastian

Yet, riders who have just done the Tour are always on form for that race.

Or how Purito was awesome in Dauphine after the Giro. Peak lasts for a couple of weeks after a GT so for the Olympic Road race coming just after the Tour is a perfect position that gets the best out of riders.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Federer had pretty much the same year 2008 and 2010 but he lost to Canc in 2008 and beat him in 2010.

And what about Spain. Sammy probably got more press out of his 1 olympic gold than Freire did out of his 3 worlds, and thats in cycling's 3rd or 4th biggest country.

Dont like the Vuelta comparison, use San Sebastian then. I doubt anyone rides the TDF to be on form for San Sebastian

Yet, riders who have just done the Tour are always on form for that race.

Or how Purito was awesome in Dauphine after the Giro. Peak lasts for a couple of weeks after a GT so for the Olympic Road race coming just after the Tour is a perfect position that gets the best out of riders.

pfft the san sebastian has no way near the amount of riders concentrating as the worlds does. No way a good comparison lol.

and lol, congrats you have totally missed my point. I'm not saying post GT peak isn't possible, it is. However I am saying riders didn't - or not many anyway - or don't ussually ride tour soley for olympics prep. Whereas the vuetla has been used merely as a tool, to a much bigger extent for the worlds year in year out. Simple point, or fact rather, no need to over anaylze it.

i thought you meant swiss sports personality of year. which fed didn't win in 2010.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Sports_Personality_of_the_Year

Again winning the olympics was big, but again I 100% disagree it is better the worlds. If I were a rider I would value the stripes much more.

ANd with spain it is the context, they have so many world championships as a country it is probably a less bigger deal. I'd agree the olympics gold was bigger for the nation because they have had so much success in the worlds. But for example, I think if cudles won the olympics it wouldn't be such a big deal. WHen he won the worlds it was something because Aus never won one. But with olympics he'd probably be forgotten amongst the other 20 gold medals we got.

But I think with a lot of riders, most would value that glory in the world champs.

Again I'm not belittling the olympics, rather I'd just rating the worlds higher.

 

[The Hitch]

pfft the san sebastian has no way near the amount of riders concentrating as the worlds does. No way a good comparison lol.

and lol, congrats you have totally missed my point. I'm not saying post GT peak isn't possible, it is. However I am saying riders didn't - or not many anyway - or don't ussually ride tour soley for olympics prep. Whereas the vuetla has been used merely as a tool, to a much bigger extent for the worlds year in year out. Simple point, or fact rather, no need to over anaylze it.

i thought you meant swiss sports personality of year. which fed didn't win in 2010.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Sports_Personality_of_the_Year

He didnt win but he beat Canc as Federer finished 3rd and Cancellara finished 5th

http://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/sport/Ueberflieger_Ammann_symbolisiert_Sportjahr_2010.html?cid=29101340

The point about San Sebastian was not comparing it to the Worlds, but rather a rebuttal to the idea that riders doing the Olympics with "The Tour in their legs" is a sign of weakness. I was arguing that, San Sebastian, Dauphine, Worlds, etc prove that riders are still on peak if they do a race in the weeks following a GT.

And Cadel, well he hardly got a heros reception coming home with the Rainbow jersey did he?

As for the rest, well agree to disagree. I think in most countries an olympic gold would be better welcomed than a rainbow jersey, especially since its seen as the pinnacle of sporting achievement, and whatsmore, the 4 year reigning champion period greatly trumps the 12 month one offered by the stripes.