3 biggest astonishments and disappointments in 105th LeTour

[ppanther92]

Highlights:
Roglic, Alaphilippe, Thomas, Dumoulin, Geschke

Dissapointments:
Movistar, Bardet, Jungels, Zakarin, Kittel

 

[hayneplane]

Re:

Wonders:

- Bernal: I'm not sure everyone grasps what this kid is doing. He was probably the third strongest rider yesterday, a tough (albeit short) mountain stage in the third week of the Tour.

Disappointments:

- Zakarin: after climbing with the very best in his past two GTs this was a huge step back. His spring was probably a hint of things to come, but I was blind and kept believing. Huge letdown for me.

I had Bernal down as the outright strongest yesterday. He had to put the brakes on to keep Froome in his wheel and never looked remotely like losing any control when he was riding on the front. I feel sure he would have hunted Quintana down had the race situation made that a necessity. I think Major Tom would have been struggling to hang on to a Bernal, Roglic, Thomas train as it flicked through the gears so he is lucky that Froome needed Bernal.

 

[barmaher]

Winning a Tour de France is the pinnacle of the sport. We can look back at nearly every first-time Tour de France winner in the last 50 years and say that it was a surprise.

Geraint Thomas has been building towards a GT podium in the past few years. His results in week-long stage races, and also his high class domestique work in Tours de France over the past few years have suggested that he is worth a shot at leading a Grand Tour. If you were to ask me last month to guess where Thomas would finish in the Tour, I would have said 4th to 6th.

I am surprised that he won, but no more surprised than I was when Contador, Evans, Froome, Nibali, Sastre, Ullrich, Riis, Roche and others won their first GT.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: 3 biggest astonishments and disappointments in 105th LeT

Wonders:
ALAPHILIPPE what a tour from him.
ROGLIC I wasn't expecting that. Would be great if he can get on the podium.

Disappointments:
MOVISTAR they got their stage win but the team that was supposed to derail sky came here with three leaders of which seemingly uses this race as a vuelta warm up while the other two aren't anywhere near as good as people expected. Can anyone explain to me again why all of them skipped the giro?
MICHELTON SCOTT What a shitshow. Completely f*cking up the whole season of their best sprinter to support a gc rider who turns out to be rubbish. Looking at the sprinter field right now, what must Ewan be thinking?

 

[Bolder]

The following are surprises to me, not "mildly unexpected occurrences,": I don't put GThomas in this category as I think you'd have to be willfully ignorant not to see that he had a chance. Anyone who wins the Dauphine is clearly on form for the tour, and then put him behind the Sky train...so it would have been more unexpected if he'd washed out, frankly.

Wonders:
--Roglic: Did not know he was that good.
--Dumoulin: I thought he'd stage hunt after the Giro.
--Sky domestiques: I don't know why but this is the year I thought they'd be mortal. Instead, better than ever. Kwiat should be winning every one-day race he enters, and why is Castroviejo not a star in his own right? Bernal...absolutely nuclear in the mountains.
--Alaphilippe: What determination and spirit! I knew he was quality but the way he has ridden has been masterful.
--The cobbled stage, aka "mini Roubaix" : It was even more brutal than I thought it would be. I think it destroyed Bardet and Landa's tours, frankly.

Disappointments:
--Bardet and Landa (see above)
--Adam Yates: What happened?
--Sprinters getting dropped. Something needs to be done to prevent this.
--Stages 10/16, in terms of GC action. Blah. In fact the mountain stages have been OK so far, I'd say 12 and 17 gave us good action, while 11 was kind of a wash. Still don't get the rationale of finishing a mountain stage with a descent.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re:

The following are surprises to me, not "mildly unexpected occurrences,": I don't put GThomas in this category as I think you'd have to be willfully ignorant not to see that he had a chance. Anyone who wins the Dauphine is clearly on form for the tour, and then put him behind the Sky train...so it would have been more unexpected if he'd washed out, frankly.

Wonders:
--Roglic: Did not know he was that good.
--Dumoulin: I thought he'd stage hunt after the Giro.
--Sky domestiques: I don't know why but this is the year I thought they'd be mortal. Instead, better than ever. Kwiat should be winning every one-day race he enters, and why is Castroviejo not a star in his own right? Bernal...absolutely nuclear in the mountains.
--Alaphilippe: What determination and spirit! I knew he was quality but the way he has ridden has been masterful.
--The cobbled stage, aka "mini Roubaix" : It was even more brutal than I thought it would be. I think it destroyed Bardet and Landa's tours, frankly.

Disappointments:
--Bardet and Landa (see above)
--Adam Yates: What happened?
--Sprinters getting dropped. Something needs to be done to prevent this.
--Stages 10/16, in terms of GC action. Blah. In fact the mountain stages have been OK so far, I'd say 12 and 17 gave us good action, while 11 was kind of a wash. Still don't get the rationale of finishing a mountain stage with a descent.

Landa, I can see, but why do you think the cobbles stage destroyed Bardet's Tour? He didn't lose more than 7s and he also did not crash. I struggle to see how that specific stage affected his race afterwards

 

[SKSemtex]

Re:

The following are surprises to me, not "mildly unexpected occurrences,": I don't put GThomas in this category as I think you'd have to be willfully ignorant not to see that he had a chance. Anyone who wins the Dauphine is clearly on form for the tour, and then put him behind the Sky train...so it would have been more unexpected if he'd washed out, frankly.

Wonders:
--Roglic: Did not know he was that good.
--Dumoulin: I thought he'd stage hunt after the Giro.
--Sky domestiques: I don't know why but this is the year I thought they'd be mortal. Instead, better than ever. Kwiat should be winning every one-day race he enters, and why is Castroviejo not a star in his own right? Bernal...absolutely nuclear in the mountains.
--Alaphilippe: What determination and spirit! I knew he was quality but the way he has ridden has been masterful.
--The cobbled stage, aka "mini Roubaix" : It was even more brutal than I thought it would be. I think it destroyed Bardet and Landa's tours, frankly.

Disappointments:
--Bardet and Landa (see above)
--Adam Yates: What happened?
--Sprinters getting dropped. Something needs to be done to prevent this.
--Stages 10/16, in terms of GC action. Blah. In fact the mountain stages have been OK so far, I'd say 12 and 17 gave us good action, while 11 was kind of a wash. Still don't get the rationale of finishing a mountain stage with a descent.

Yes. They will. They will increase a time limit. :lol:

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

A thirty something cobbled classics rider with no good GT finishes looking all but guaranteed to win the Tour de France is so astonishing that nothing else registers as even mildly surprising beside it.

Your like a broken record

Accurate though.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

A thirty something cobbled classics rider with no good GT finishes looking all but guaranteed to win the Tour de France is so astonishing that nothing else registers as even mildly surprising beside it.

The only remotely comparable events for many years were the time two random nobodies fought out a Vuelta between them and the time a lost masters racer wandered into the Vuelta and won it. And neither of those freak events were ultimately as bizarre.

Oh my god, you're just never shutting up about that, are you?

As I have stated many times; This is NOT that big of a surprise if you have followed his career trajectory the last few years instead of just browsing through his PCS page!

Please. He’s proven to be decent on the cobbles and a good domestique, but dominant Tour winner?

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

A thirty something cobbled classics rider with no good GT finishes looking all but guaranteed to win the Tour de France is so astonishing that nothing else registers as even mildly surprising beside it.

The only remotely comparable events for many years were the time two random nobodies fought out a Vuelta between them and the time a lost masters racer wandered into the Vuelta and won it. And neither of those freak events were ultimately as bizarre.

Yea, it's almost like 32 is peak age for mens aerobic fitness. This isn't 100m sprinting; a 22 year old performing on this level would be far more atypical.

So you will be able to point to the long succession of previous Tour winners who never troubled the top 10 of a GT until their thirties despite competing in a dozen of them. If it’s so normal it must have happened many times before in the last 115 years of GT racing, right?

Now name one example.

Maurice Garin.

In the last 100 years then

 

[Bolder]

Re: Re:

The following are surprises to me, not "mildly unexpected occurrences,": I don't put GThomas in this category as I think you'd have to be willfully ignorant not to see that he had a chance. Anyone who wins the Dauphine is clearly on form for the tour, and then put him behind the Sky train...so it would have been more unexpected if he'd washed out, frankly.

Wonders:
--Roglic: Did not know he was that good.
--Dumoulin: I thought he'd stage hunt after the Giro.
--Sky domestiques: I don't know why but this is the year I thought they'd be mortal. Instead, better than ever. Kwiat should be winning every one-day race he enters, and why is Castroviejo not a star in his own right? Bernal...absolutely nuclear in the mountains.
--Alaphilippe: What determination and spirit! I knew he was quality but the way he has ridden has been masterful.
--The cobbled stage, aka "mini Roubaix" : It was even more brutal than I thought it would be. I think it destroyed Bardet and Landa's tours, frankly.

Disappointments:
--Bardet and Landa (see above)
--Adam Yates: What happened?
--Sprinters getting dropped. Something needs to be done to prevent this.
--Stages 10/16, in terms of GC action. Blah. In fact the mountain stages have been OK so far, I'd say 12 and 17 gave us good action, while 11 was kind of a wash. Still don't get the rationale of finishing a mountain stage with a descent.

Landa, I can see, but why do you think the cobbles stage destroyed Bardet's Tour? He didn't lose more than 7s and he also did not crash. I struggle to see how that specific stage affected his race afterwards

He had to expend a ton of energy on a hot, dusty day to catch up after flatting four times (OK, he drafted a bit , but still). He didn't seem to have any punch in the mountains, which is unusual for him. Maybe just my perception but Bardet usually can muster a few solid attacks.

 

[B_Ugli]

Re: Re:

The following are surprises to me, not "mildly unexpected occurrences,": I don't put GThomas in this category as I think you'd have to be willfully ignorant not to see that he had a chance. Anyone who wins the Dauphine is clearly on form for the tour, and then put him behind the Sky train...so it would have been more unexpected if he'd washed out, frankly.

Wonders:
--Roglic: Did not know he was that good.
--Dumoulin: I thought he'd stage hunt after the Giro.
--Sky domestiques: I don't know why but this is the year I thought they'd be mortal. Instead, better than ever. Kwiat should be winning every one-day race he enters, and why is Castroviejo not a star in his own right? Bernal...absolutely nuclear in the mountains.
--Alaphilippe: What determination and spirit! I knew he was quality but the way he has ridden has been masterful.
--The cobbled stage, aka "mini Roubaix" : It was even more brutal than I thought it would be. I think it destroyed Bardet and Landa's tours, frankly.

Disappointments:
--Bardet and Landa (see above)
--Adam Yates: What happened?
--Sprinters getting dropped. Something needs to be done to prevent this.
--Stages 10/16, in terms of GC action. Blah. In fact the mountain stages have been OK so far, I'd say 12 and 17 gave us good action, while 11 was kind of a wash. Still don't get the rationale of finishing a mountain stage with a descent.

Yes. They will. They will increase a time limit. :lol:

Interesting one this because many of the sprinters have made it to Paris in the past and I remember Cavendish improving his climbing for a couple of years to do just that. Couldn't say the same for Cippolini mind!

I will probably get shot down in flames for saying this but perhaps some of the sprinters should do just a little more prep for the mountains in the same way as the GC guys clearly did for the Roubaix stage.

The whole % of 1st riders time should be revised to a fixed time or after the fixed time so long as they finish in a group.

 

[del1962]

I think the 3 alpine mountain stages back to back killed the sprinters especially the shortish 2nd stage, we don't often see 3 such stages back to back and sometimes when we do one is soft pedallled like 2013 stage 19, though I think Cav and Kittel would have struggled anyway

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: Re:

The following are surprises to me, not "mildly unexpected occurrences,": I don't put GThomas in this category as I think you'd have to be willfully ignorant not to see that he had a chance. Anyone who wins the Dauphine is clearly on form for the tour, and then put him behind the Sky train...so it would have been more unexpected if he'd washed out, frankly.

Wonders:
--Roglic: Did not know he was that good.
--Dumoulin: I thought he'd stage hunt after the Giro.
--Sky domestiques: I don't know why but this is the year I thought they'd be mortal. Instead, better than ever. Kwiat should be winning every one-day race he enters, and why is Castroviejo not a star in his own right? Bernal...absolutely nuclear in the mountains.
--Alaphilippe: What determination and spirit! I knew he was quality but the way he has ridden has been masterful.
--The cobbled stage, aka "mini Roubaix" : It was even more brutal than I thought it would be. I think it destroyed Bardet and Landa's tours, frankly.

Disappointments:
--Bardet and Landa (see above)
--Adam Yates: What happened?
--Sprinters getting dropped. Something needs to be done to prevent this.
--Stages 10/16, in terms of GC action. Blah. In fact the mountain stages have been OK so far, I'd say 12 and 17 gave us good action, while 11 was kind of a wash. Still don't get the rationale of finishing a mountain stage with a descent.

Yes. They will. They will increase a time limit. :lol:

Interesting one this because many of the sprinters have made it to Paris in the past and I remember Cavendish improving his climbing for a couple of years to do just that. Couldn't say the same for Cippolini mind!

I will probably get shot down in flames for saying this but perhaps some of the sprinters should do just a little more prep for the mountains in the same way as the GC guys clearly did for the Roubaix stage.

The whole % of 1st riders time should be revised to a fixed time or after the fixed time so long as they finish in a group.

They should do exactly NOTHING. Sprinters will adapt. They will train in some mountains.

If they start to soften the limits, making another exclusion from their own rules sprinters will adapt again but in a negative way. Road cycling should not be for people with no endurance but able to push 1200 W for a few hundred meters. We have another cycling type of cycling for that: track
It is really ridiculous to have 8-10 stages for sprinters. It means basically another 8-10 rest days for GC riders.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

A thirty something cobbled classics rider with no good GT finishes looking all but guaranteed to win the Tour de France is so astonishing that nothing else registers as even mildly surprising beside it.

The only remotely comparable events for many years were the time two random nobodies fought out a Vuelta between them and the time a lost masters racer wandered into the Vuelta and won it. And neither of those freak events were ultimately as bizarre.

Yea, it's almost like 32 is peak age for mens aerobic fitness. This isn't 100m sprinting; a 22 year old performing on this level would be far more atypical.

So you will be able to point to the long succession of previous Tour winners who never troubled the top 10 of a GT until their thirties despite competing in a dozen of them. If it’s so normal it must have happened many times before in the last 115 years of GT racing, right?

Now name one example.

Maurice Garin.

In the last 100 years then

Even Garin doesn’t make the grade as he didn’t ride twelve GTs as a GC non entity before winning one. tobydawq isn’t a particularly attentive reader.

 

[hayneplane]

Re: Re:

The following are surprises to me, not "mildly unexpected occurrences,": I don't put GThomas in this category as I think you'd have to be willfully ignorant not to see that he had a chance. Anyone who wins the Dauphine is clearly on form for the tour, and then put him behind the Sky train...so it would have been more unexpected if he'd washed out, frankly.

Wonders:
--Roglic: Did not know he was that good.
--Dumoulin: I thought he'd stage hunt after the Giro.
--Sky domestiques: I don't know why but this is the year I thought they'd be mortal. Instead, better than ever. Kwiat should be winning every one-day race he enters, and why is Castroviejo not a star in his own right? Bernal...absolutely nuclear in the mountains.
--Alaphilippe: What determination and spirit! I knew he was quality but the way he has ridden has been masterful.
--The cobbled stage, aka "mini Roubaix" : It was even more brutal than I thought it would be. I think it destroyed Bardet and Landa's tours, frankly.

Disappointments:
--Bardet and Landa (see above)
--Adam Yates: What happened?
--Sprinters getting dropped. Something needs to be done to prevent this.
--Stages 10/16, in terms of GC action. Blah. In fact the mountain stages have been OK so far, I'd say 12 and 17 gave us good action, while 11 was kind of a wash. Still don't get the rationale of finishing a mountain stage with a descent.

Yes. They will. They will increase a time limit. :lol:

Interesting one this because many of the sprinters have made it to Paris in the past and I remember Cavendish improving his climbing for a couple of years to do just that. Couldn't say the same for Cippolini mind!

I will probably get shot down in flames for saying this but perhaps some of the sprinters should do just a little more prep for the mountains in the same way as the GC guys clearly did for the Roubaix stage.

The whole % of 1st riders time should be revised to a fixed time or after the fixed time so long as they finish in a group.

They should do exactly NOTHING. Sprinters will adapt. They will train in some mountains.

If they start to soften the limits, making another exclusion from their own rules sprinters will adapt again but in a negative way. Road cycling should not be for people with no endurance but able to push 1200 W for a few hundred meters. We have another cycling type of cycling for that: track
It is really ridiculous to have 8-10 stages for sprinters. It means basically another 8-10 rest days for GC riders.

I entirely agree with this. Indeed I would throw some mountains to soften up the field before the sprinters have already had half a dozen chances to win a stage.

The time limits are too generous as it is and the Formigal Vuelta reinstatement of over half the field who cruised in 55 minutes down on medium mountain stage was a travesty to the sport and especially the riders who genuinely battled the time on that day.

Road cycling is one of the ultimate endurance sports and surviving the obstacles and living to fight another day for glory is a massive part of it. A sprint win for me is of significantly lower value than any other type of stage win.

 

[Oliver]

Re: 3 biggest astonishments and disappointments in 105th LeT

Wonders:

Alaphilippe: great showing in de mountains
Roglic: we don’t even know yet where his limit is
Thomas: did not expect he could win le Tour

Disappointments:

Yates: another disappointing gc result after Giro. I must have less expectations about him.
Movistar: especially Landa - wanted to be free but don’t have the legs like in the past.
Cobbles stage
First week
Not much action between the GC guys
The Nibali incident

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re: 3 biggest astonishments and disappointments in 105th LeT

Wonders:

Alaphilippe: great showing in de mountains
Roglic: we don’t even know yet where his limit is
Thomas: did not expect he could win le Tour

Disappointments:

Yates: another disappointing gc result after Giro. I must have less expectations about him.
Movistar: especially Landa - wanted to be free but don’t have the legs like in the past.
Cobbles stage
First week
Not much action between the GC guys
The Nibali incident

Different Yates, but disappointed nonetheless.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: 3 biggest astonishments and disappointments in 105th LeT

Wonders:

Alaphilippe: great showing in de mountains
Roglic: we don’t even know yet where his limit is
Thomas: did not expect he could win le Tour

Disappointments:

Yates: another disappointing gc result after Giro. I must have less expectations about him.
Movistar: especially Landa - wanted to be free but don’t have the legs like in the past.
Cobbles stage
First week
Not much action between the GC guys
The Nibali incident

Different Yates, but disappointed nonetheless.

What do you mean? Its the 2nd time in a row Adam Yates is completely useless in a GT he specifically has peaked for, 3rd if you count the Giro where he ended 9th overall and didnt do much as per usual.
Orica was obviously wrong supporting such a rider 100% against this field.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Re: 3 biggest astonishments and disappointments in 105th LeT

Wonders:

Alaphilippe: great showing in de mountains
Roglic: we don’t even know yet where his limit is
Thomas: did not expect he could win le Tour

Disappointments:

Yates: another disappointing gc result after Giro. I must have less expectations about him.
Movistar: especially Landa - wanted to be free but don’t have the legs like in the past.
Cobbles stage
First week
Not much action between the GC guys
The Nibali incident

Different Yates, but disappointed nonetheless.

Indeed, but Simon was hardly disappointing in the Giro. He was sensational, despite his eventual result on GC.

Adam's been hugely disappointing though, especially considering his strong showing in the Dauphine.

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re: 3 biggest astonishments and disappointments in 105th LeT

Wonders:

Alaphilippe: great showing in de mountains
Roglic: we don’t even know yet where his limit is
Thomas: did not expect he could win le Tour

Disappointments:

Yates: another disappointing gc result after Giro. I must have less expectations about him.
Movistar: especially Landa - wanted to be free but don’t have the legs like in the past.
Cobbles stage
First week
Not much action between the GC guys
The Nibali incident

Different Yates, but disappointed nonetheless.

What do you mean? Its the 2nd time in a row Adam Yates is completely useless in a GT he specifically has peaked for, 3rd if you count the Giro where he ended 9th overall and didnt do much as per usual.
Orica was obviously wrong supporting such a rider 100% against this field.

That’s exactly what I meant, he was disappointing. But he didn’t race the Giro this year, which was the impression i got from the above poster getting them mistaken. In his defence he was ill in week 2 and at least did show some form this week before the crash. Hopefully hes ok for San Sebastián.

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re: 3 biggest astonishments and disappointments in 105th LeT

Wonders:

Alaphilippe: great showing in de mountains
Roglic: we don’t even know yet where his limit is
Thomas: did not expect he could win le Tour

Disappointments:

Yates: another disappointing gc result after Giro. I must have less expectations about him.
Movistar: especially Landa - wanted to be free but don’t have the legs like in the past.
Cobbles stage
First week
Not much action between the GC guys
The Nibali incident

Different Yates, but disappointed nonetheless.

Indeed, but Simon was hardly disappointing in the Giro. He was sensational, despite his eventual result on GC.

Adam's been hugely disappointing though, especially considering his strong showing in the Dauphine.

Agreed, Simon had a great Giro, just a very disappointing ending.

 

[vladimir]

Wonders:
Bernal, would G have won without him? I doubt it
Lotto-Jumbo, dominant both in sprints and in the mountains
Alaphillipe, the new Virenque with added possibility to win in the Ardennes
Konychev, for showing that it is possible to ride hard and make a stage hard even with only four riders left
Early action on many mountain stages
Disappointments:
A winner that has only followed wheels for three weeks (except two sprints in the final k)
Kittel, Cavendish, Yates and Fuglsang
All three Movistar leaders below par
AG2R much weaker than last year
That none of the early attacks in the mountains succeeded

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Wonders:
Bernal, would G have won without him? I doubt it
Lotto-Jumbo, dominant both in sprints and in the mountains
Alaphillipe, the new Virenque with added possibility to win in the Ardennes
Konychev, for showing that it is possible to ride hard and make a stage hard even with only four riders left
Early action on many mountain stages
Disappointments:
A winner that has only followed wheels for three weeks (except two sprints in the final k)
Kittel, Cavendish, Yates and Fuglsang
All three Movistar leaders below par
AG2R much weaker than last year
That none of the early attacks in the mountains succeeded

I think the way in which Thomas was able to sprint at the end of every mountain stage, suggests he had a lot left in the tank. Imo he'd have won easily with or without Bernal - even if he only followed wheels, he hasn't looked in any trouble all Tour.

Probably the most convincing and controlled GT win since Nibali in 2014. The only doubts were whether or not his team-mate would pull rank.

 

[loge1884]

astonishments:
- Alaphilippe: although I don't like the guy particularly, I have to admit, that he was the most visible active rider in this tour ... he did what Sagan used to do a few years back, and not on the rather insignificant (from a GC point of view) hilly transition stages, but on the eminent alpine and pyrenees stages - and he even won a couple of them ... so I have to bow down to such a feat ...
- Dumoulin: for being stronger than Froome in the 'contest' of the Giro-Tour riders
- Bernal: revealed himself as the coming top contender in GTs (ToC in my view doesn't count as a test for GT abilities) ... if he doesn't go Betancur, it's hard to see him not being the first Colombian winning the Tour in two or three years ...


disappointments:
- fight for the GC win rather being a team game than an individual man vs man ... we all know cycling in reality being a team sport, but we all dream of an individual showdown (like e.g. Tennis or Boxing) - reality prevails, Geraint Thomas is not the strongest amongs him, Dumoulin and Roglic, but the one with the by far best team ....
- Movistar: the only team which has a roster to potentially being a match to Sky, doesn't seem to have any kind of strategy which would work ... their technical staff seem's to be below par, certainly not a match to the potential of their riders (and this has been going on for a few years now, at least in the Tour ...) ... if they want to concentrate on the Vuelta, fine, but then just go stage hunting in the Tour and do it properly ...
- Sagan missing his chance to finally win the Champs-Elysees sprint ... (N.B. still hope I'm wrong on this one, then it would be part of the astonishments, but I doubt it)