40th Route du Sud [2.1]

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

His tt in romandie was more impressive than this tt in route du sud. Last year contador smoked everyone (bar quintana) in a climb and in le tour he was awful

Lol.

Contador rode Giro in '15. Besides, what climb? Isn't this an ITT? Nonsense.

The point was that winning or dominating in this race doesn't mean much because that field is crap.

... by pointing to a season where Contador also did one of the hardest Giros while Quintana has trained 6 weeks in Colombia? Again, doesn't make much sense.

I think you still don't get the point.
Last year, Contador crushed everyone except Quintana, yet he was really bad at the TdF. Ergo, dominating at this race doesn't mean much. The field is crap so it's really hard to compare.

I get the point, don't you worry. Its just not a legitimate one for 21 reasons... see what I did there?

- Contador rode the Giro in 2015 as we all know. It is brought up whenever it is possible for Contador-fans and is a big reason why he was terrible last year. Its very, very different circumstances. I hope you are capable of acknowledging that.

- The competition is close to trash, but who had expected him to win in such a manner on a very rouleur friendly course? I certainly didn't after Chavanel's impressive time. Last year Contador and Quintana (along with Latour, so don't call it dominate when you simply risk a bit more on the descent) crested Balés together. It was not like Contador flew up that climb - how much, if any, could Quintana had distanced him?

Anyways, this is useless. I am aware you guys will try to give as little props as possible and bring up comparisons which frankly don't make it any sense. The Giro is just too much to ignore and mindlessly throw out such comparisons.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

His tt in romandie was more impressive than this tt in route du sud. Last year contador smoked everyone (bar quintana) in a climb and in le tour he was awful

Lol.

Contador rode Giro in '15. Besides, what climb? Isn't this an ITT? Nonsense.

The point was that winning or dominating in this race doesn't mean much because that field is crap.

... by pointing to a season where Contador also did one of the hardest Giros while Quintana has trained 6 weeks in Colombia? Again, doesn't make much sense.

I think you still don't get the point.
Last year, Contador crushed everyone except Quintana, yet he was really bad at the TdF. Ergo, dominating at this race doesn't mean much. The majority of the teams here are French (Pro)Conti teams. It is hard to compare a performance here to a performance at the Dauphiné/Suisse.

Yes, but in Suisse this year not much more level.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Yes but beating Chavanel on a course like this is a sign that Nairo is in very good shape

Yes, it is a good sign. It doesn't mean he's suddenly a monster TTer. Chavanel, while still a solid TTer, lost his edge years ago.

 

[roundabout]

This is too funny. How many people called the field crap 12 month ago when Contador could barely put a minute into a journeyman rider like Rossetto?

 

[Valv.Piti]

And Florecita, lets not forget that Quintana was what, in the front for 130 kilometres yesterday? I know it must feel bad to see.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

This is too funny. How many people called the field crap 12 month ago when Contador could barely put a minute into a journeyman rider like Rossetto?

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. A minute is a big gap, but Rossetto is hardly a climbing star. You have to look at more than just the result in numbers.
About last year's field, don't forget Contador beat Quintana, that made his win look a little better.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

This is too funny. How many people called the field crap 12 month ago when Contador could barely put a minute into a journeyman rider like Rossetto?

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. A minute is a big gap, but Rossetto is hardly a climbing star. You have to look at more than just the result in numbers.
About last year's field, don't forget Contador beat Quintana, that made his win look a little better.

He risked more on the descent, yes. It obviously didn't matter for Quintana, but for some reason, winning Sud was somewhat important for Contador. I'll never understand that daredevil descent.

However, you didn't reply. Do you still maintain that Contador '15 Sud vs '16 Quintana Sud is a valid comparison or just trying to help your fellow Contador-fan out?

 

[SeriousSam]

So we want to get a sense of how good Quintana will be at the Tour, taking into account information from this year's Route du Sud

There are at least two ways of going about this.

method 1: We look at Quintana's form at the Route du Sud and then the Tour last year. Quite an obvious thing to do. He was good and then very good.

method 2: We look at a some different rider, Contador, who had a different schedule that included the Giro, and notice that he was good and then ***. So because Contador was good at the Route and *** at the Tour, we predict Quintana being good at the Route doesn't mean that much.

Amazingly, some posters actually appear to think method 2. is more relevant for putting Quintana's Route du Sud performance into proper context than method 1.

 

[Antoine_Blondin]

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Awesome photos, Antoine.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

So we want to get a sense of how good Quintana will be at the Tour, taking into account information from this year's Route du Sud

There are at least two ways of going about this.

method 1: We look at Quintana's form at the Route du Sud and then the Tour last year. Quite an obvious thing to do. He was good and then very good.

method 2: We look at a some different rider, Contador, who had a different schedule that included the Giro, and notice that he was good and then ****. So because Contador was good at the Route and **** at the Tour, we predict Quintana being good at the Route doesn't mean that much.

Amazingly, some posters actually appear to think method 2. is more relevant for putting Quintana's Route du Sud performance into proper context than method 1.

Its mind boggling. I cannot grasp how an otherwise quite intelligent poster as LF (when it doesn't come to Quintana, Froome and Contador) can support such utter rubbish.

 

[Escarabajo]

Let's be honest. Competition here is not the best. Not only that, there are no top TT'ers here.

We can take his performance qualitatively but not quantitatively. Which means he has improved in TT's (that are not mountain) but we don't know exactly where he is when compared with Froome and other top dogs. My 2 cents.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

He risked more on the descent, yes. It obviously didn't matter for Quintana, but for some reason, winning Sud was somewhat important for Contador. I'll never understand that daredevil descent.

Yes, some riders race aggressively and always want to win, whatever it takes. I can see why that would be hard to understand for a Quintana fan.

However, you didn't reply. Do you still maintain that Contador '15 Sud vs '16 Quintana Sud is a valid comparison or just trying to help your fellow Contador-fan out?

Of course. The only point was that the field here is very low quality, so a win here doesn't automatically mean a win at the Tour de France.
Quintana is obviously in good shape, but him winning this TT doesn't mean much. If Froome, Contador or even Porte had been in the race, it would have been much easier to draw conclusions.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Let's be honest. Competition here is not the best. Not only that, there are no top TT'ers here.

We can take his performance qualitatively but not quantitatively. Which means he has improved in TT's (that are not mountain) but we don't know exactly where he is when compared with Froome and other top dogs. My 2 cents.

Yes, you explained it perfectly

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

He risked more on the descent, yes. It obviously didn't matter for Quintana, but for some reason, winning Sud was somewhat important for Contador. I'll never understand that daredevil descent.

Yes, some riders race aggressively and always want to win, whatever it takes. I can see why that would be hard to understand for a Quintana fan.

However, you didn't reply. Do you still maintain that Contador '15 Sud vs '16 Quintana Sud is a valid comparison or just trying to help your fellow Contador-fan out?

Of course. The only point was that the field here is very low quality, so a win here doesn't automatically mean a win at the Tour de France.
Quintana is obviously in good shape, but him winning this TT doesn't mean much. If Froome, Contador or even Porte had been in the race, it would have been much easier to draw conclusions.

1. I think many Contador-fans were just as surprised. My bet is that you wasn't pleased with him going downhill like that 2 weeks before TdF. Mind, this wasn't Suisse or Dauphine. It was *** Route du Sud.

2. Winning like that, it means quite a bit IMO despite the lack of talent, but I get your point. What is inexplicable to me is that your was supporting portugal's assessment, the second method SeriousSam noted in his post

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

1. I think many Contador-fans were just as surprised. My bet is that you wasn't pleased with him going downhill like that 2 weeks before TdF. Mind, this wasn't Suisse or Dauphine. It was **** Route du Sud.

Oh I always get a bit uneasy during descents but I quite enjoyed it. It was cool to see him go for it and win that way.

2. Winning like that, it means quite a bit IMO despite the lack of talent, but I get your point. What is inexplicable to me is that your was supporting portugal's assessment, the second method SeriousSam noted in his post

I think portugal11 basically tried to say the exact same thing as me and Escarabajo: the field is terrible so it's hard to judge just how good this performance was.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

Yes, some riders race aggressively and always want to win, whatever it takes. I can see why that would be hard to understand for a Quintana fan.

Ok, then.

Anyway, good to see Quintana having a little fun, going on unnecessary sorties. Hopefully he'll put in another fairly early attack tomorrow.

 

[ILovecycling]

*** Nairo

 

[Antoine_Blondin]

Thanks !

 

[ILovecycling]

Re:

Let's be honest. Competition here is not the best. Not only that, there are no top TT'ers here.

We can take his performance qualitatively but not quantitatively. Which means he has improved in TT's (that are not mountain) but we don't know exactly where he is when compared with Froome and other top dogs. My 2 cents.

Finally a post which sums up the discussion from last 2 pages.

 

[yaco]

Look forward to tomorrows stage. You know the boys from caja rural will animate the stage and make it a touch climb. Bring it on.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Yes, some riders race aggressively and always want to win, whatever it takes. I can see why that would be hard to understand for a Quintana fan.

Ok, then.

You don't like riders who are willing to take a few risks downhill to take the win?

 

[AlexNYC]

Hmm. The last two pages would make for a very interesting psychological hypothesis: people refusing to understand things that somehow don't support their preconceived notions.

Quintana winning a mostly flat ITT at RdS does not mean he will do the same at the TdF; I think most reasonable people would agree with this. However, the validity of this statement does not imply that his performance today holds no relevance in trying to predict his form for the Tour. I think it's pretty obvious that it does. It makes it very likely that Quintana is in at least as good form as last year, and probably better. Contrast this with Contador, of whom we really don't know in what kind of shape he's in relative to other years.

 

[Flamin]

Lol at the daredevil descent from Contador. He barely took any risks.. Quintana lost the wheel for no clear reason and then they just rode down pretty casually.

Anyway strong performance today. Chavanel is not a nobody even at his age and the others are not even close.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

You don't like riders who are willing to take a few risks downhill to take the win?

Not when said rider is the only rider I've recall that's been repeatedly called out by the peloton for recklessly endangering others on descents. And this is a peloton that holds such descending luminaries as Warren Barguil.

But Crashcaidor's descending chops (or lack thereof) notwithstanding, while I understand -and share- others' appreciation of his panache and his attacking flair, I find admiring someone for "always want[ing] to win, whatever it takes" quite interesting in the context of professional sports, never mind cycling. I actually find that to be one of his less endearing qualities.

Also, Quintana seems like and odd choice for contrast in terms of competitiveness. It is not a quality he would seem to lack. But then again I actually believe that pushing up the pace in the early slopes of LPSM might've cost Movistar last year's Tour. YMMV.