A new theory concerning the significance of pedalling style.

[FrankDay]

Can offer? You mean you actually have some evidence

How many champions do you want me to list?

 

[CoachFergie]

How many champions do you want me to list?

Pathetic.

A list is evidence of nothing.

<edit>except maybe the IQ of some professional cyclists

 

[ustabe]

So, can we expect a winner on Mt. Ventoux using platform pedals and Bata Bikers? Or if not a grand tour stage winner, maybe an Hour contender.

 

[CoachFergie]

Highly doubt that. Might add some flair to the Keirin or Match Sprints on the track. Would still expect some minimal gains to be made from a carbon soled shoe, comfort over time, power transfer in short races and foremost in terms of safety.

There are however, some MTB riders that race on flats. DH and XC.

Bata Bikers! Are they any relation to Bata Bullets???

 

[FrankDay]

A list is evidence of nothing.

You asked for evidence, not scientific evidence. Lists constitute anecdotal evidence. Perhaps better than referencing pictures of Froome looking at his stem and trying to infer he is looking at his PM to gauge his race effort.

 

[CoachFergie]

Frank Day: behind the times since....

http://chrisfroomelookingatstems.tumblr.com/

Not submitted as evidence of anything either. Nearly as amusing as your attempts to market a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[Retro Trev]

I just want to emphasize that these are all opinions. In fact, almost everything that we believe about cycling training and racing is opinion with very little science to back any of it up. There are whole forums devoted to the power meter and there isn't a scintilla of scientific evidence that using one makes even the smallest of difference. That doesn't keep people from getting their panties in a bunch anytime anyone comes and posts something that is a bit off of the accepted norm. Especially if they don't cave to the usual ad hominem attacks that are guaranteed to follow from the usual suspects. Takes a thick skin to be an internet contrarian.

Anyhow, pretty much every study that has looked at pedaling technique has shown, on average, that even the pros apply back pressure on the upstroke even when attached to the pedals. This pattern can hardly be significantly different than when they are using platform pedals. Of course there are exceptions but in the big picture the exceptions are rare. Less rare than they used to be now that there are reasonably large numbers of pros who have trained on those dratted independent cranks but still rare, I am afraid, since our penetration into the cycling market remains tiny.

Frank,

Yes it does take a thick skin to be an internet contrarian.

I get called a troll and many other names because I refuse to stop expressing my opinions.

I do not agree with your views on pedalling technique but I will be the first congratulate you if you proven to be right.

People are entitled to express their opinions. Those who do not agree should not resort to name calling or trying to undermine the person instead of their arguments.

Trev.

 

[coapman]

So, as regards pedaling, I accept that most people are pretty good doing the technique they are doing, the technique they have been using since they were 3. However, there is zero evidence that the technique they are using is the optimum pedaling technique if one wants to optimize power or efficiency. I submit there is a better technique than what most people are doing and changing isn't easy. Actually, it is easy in the sense that 99% of the people can do what is necessary withing 10 minutes of receiving the proper instruction (getting on a pair of PowerCranks) but that doesn't make them an expert in this new technique in the sense that they can't do it without the feedback and they can't do it for hours and/or when they are tired. It takes a hundred hours or so to get "good" and thousands to become expert, IMHO.

The important questions to be answered is how does the pedaling of a circular expert differ from that of a PC expert. Research has already proved that circular is not as effective as mashing, so where does the PC'er find that 40% of extra power over that of a circular pedaling expert.

 

[CoachFergie]

The important questions to be answered is how does the pedaling of a circular expert differ from that of a PC expert. Research has already proved that circular is not as effective as mashing, so where does the PC'er find that 40% of extra power over that of a circular pedaling expert.

No the 40% improvement kicks in when you complete 10,000 hours of training. Convenient aye! Some wiggle room if a user doesn't see any improvement

 

[CoachFergie]

This means he can almost double his power output from each pedal stroke without increasing peak torque, and there you have the ideal technique for sustainable max power output in time trials.

Care to provide some evidence for this beyond what you think you see watching videos of Jacques Anquetil?

 

[coapman]

Care to provide some evidence for this beyond what you think you see watching videos of Jacques Anquetil?

Unlike Frank I have explained where this extra maximal torque is applied (between 11 and 2 o'c) and also how exactly this extra power is generated and applied through the cleats to the pedals. You will learn nothing from Anq. videos, except that it was impossible for him to perfect the new technique that he had discovered.

 

[CoachFergie]

So nothing. Cheers

 

[coapman]

So nothing. Cheers

Still waiting on BrimBros to perfect their PM, if that fails a free demonstration and detailed explanation will always be available to anyone who is seriously interested in the search for the perfect pedaling style.

 

[CoachFergie]

Or you could take up offers by Ric Stern or Dr Jim Martin to use the force measuring pedals in various labs seeing the technology to test your theory has been around for 40 years.

But it is cute that Frank has his new 10,000 hour dodge and you have the never ending delay's from Brim Brothers to hide behind.

 

[FrankDay]

The important questions to be answered is how does the pedaling of a circular expert differ from that of a PC expert. Research has already proved that circular is not as effective as mashing, so where does the PC'er find that 40% of extra power over that of a circular pedaling expert.

Research has shown no such thing. As the latest study from Hug points out: asking someone to do pedal in a certain way and training them to do it give two different results.

Anyhow, the 40% improvement comes from many small improvements added up around the entire circle that come from both using more muscles and using those muscles in a more effective coordination pattern.

Hug has contacted me and it sounds like he is interested in pursuing his research further and answering some of these questions. We will see.

 

[FrankDay]

No the 40% improvement kicks in when you complete 10,000 hours of training. Convenient aye! Some wiggle room if a user doesn't see any improvement

No, the 40% improvement (on average) is seen after 6-9 months of "exclusive use" of the product in training. At 10 hours a week (probably typical for our customers) that would only be 250-350 hours. Enough to make them "good" at it but still far from expert. There is still a lot of fine-tuning that can be done but we would expect further demonstrable improvements to be much smaller (except in the endurance area).

 

[CoachFergie]

No, the 40% improvement (on average) is seen after 6-9 months of "exclusive use" of the product in training. At 10 hours a week (probably typical for our customers) that would only be 250-350 hours. Enough to make them "good" at it but still far from expert. There is still a lot of fine-tuning that can be done but we would expect further demonstrable improvements to be much smaller (except in the endurance area).

Still 250 - 350 hour of training a movement pattern that is not used in competition so still a waste of time and energy. All the cool kids know that specificity is where it's at.

 

[ustabe]

Bata Bikers! Are they any relation to Bata Bullets???

Bata Biker was a fredly bike shoe from the 70s that had a close fit and a stiff, low-profile, sticky sole, just right for using toeclips without the cleats.

 

[coapman]

But in cycling the situation is very different, a cyclist is applying his force to a rotating pedal/crank and this makes it possible to apply an equally powerful forward and downward force and extend that optimal 60 deg. (2-4 o'c) sector to almost 150 deg.. This means he can almost double his power output from each pedal stroke without increasing peak torque, and there you have the ideal technique for sustainable max power output in time trials.

There you have it CoachFergie, it's "almost double" which means maybe you need a visit to an optician before attending to your lack of pedalling knowledge.

 

[CoachFergie]

There you have it CoachFergie, it's "almost double" which means maybe you need a visit to an optician before attending to your lack of pedalling knowledge.

So easily testable with any power meter. Stop hiding behind lame excuses.

 

[coapman]

Research has shown no such thing. As the latest study from Hug points out: asking someone to do pedal in a certain way and training them to do it give two different results.

Anyhow, the 40% improvement comes from many small improvements added up around the entire circle that come from both using more muscles and using those muscles in a more effective coordination pattern.

Hug has contacted me and it sounds like he is interested in pursuing his research further and answering some of these questions. We will see.

What in your opinion would be the most reliable way to compare circular and mashing for effectiveness in time trials? How many riders have perfected both techniques? Maybe Hug could start with that.

 

[CoachFergie]

What in your opinion would be the most reliable way to compare circular and mashing for effectiveness in time trials? How many riders have perfected both techniques? Maybe Hug could start with that.

You mean like Coyle did in 1991?

 

[coapman]

You mean like Coyle did in 1991?

You mean this man :http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/09/coyle-and-armstrong-research-errors.html

 

[CoachFergie]

Is 2008 the new 1991?

 

[coapman]

Is 2008 the new 1991?

It's a case of " blotting your copybook ".