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A. Schleck and O'Grady thrown out of Vuelta

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Aug 6, 2009
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Aguirre said:
I have read all spanish newspapers today.

It seems Cancellara has been hanging out quite visible during the whole vuelta, and not only this year. The question is: was Cancellara with Andy and Stuart that night and, for obvious reasons, Riis didn't have the "balls" to fire him too or... Spartacus was quite tired from the previous party the night before and decided stay at the hotel recovering...

I think is simple like this

I doubt it. Would Riis kick out Cancellare or Schleck if he was actually staying? Of cause not. Would Riis Kick out 2 people going on a drinking spree, but not the third? Unlikely - the hypocrisy would be way to transparent, and while I firmly believe that everybody is a hypocrite most people don't like to be transparent about it. Also of cause there isn't the slightest thread of evidence that Cancellara was there like for example Andy or Stuart saying "hey Cancellara was there, how come he didn't get kicked out?"
 
Cerberus said:
I doubt it. Would Riis kick out Cancellare or Schleck if he was actually staying? Of cause not. Would Riis Kick out 2 people going on a drinking spree, but not the third? Unlikely - the hypocrisy would be way to transparent, and while I firmly believe that everybody is a hypocrite most people don't like to be transparent about it. Also of cause there isn't the slightest thread of evidence that Cancellara was there like for example Andy or Stuart saying "hey Cancellara was there, how come he didn't get kicked out?"
Actually I'm not sure Riis wouldn't have kicked out Andy if he was staying in the team. Andy's only remaining goal this season is Lombardy, which is secondary to him anyway, and there's a lot of time for things to cool down and get back to normal by the time the 2011 season starts after being kicked out at this Vuelta. Now if Riis and Andy were negotiating a contract extension or something that'd be different.
 
Feb 14, 2010
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Aguirre said:
I have read all spanish newspapers today.

It seems Cancellara has been hanging out quite visible during the whole vuelta, and not only this year. The question is: was Cancellara with Andy and Stuart that night and, for obvious reasons, Riis didn't have the "balls" to fire him too or... Spartacus was quite tired from the previous party the night before and decided stay at the hotel recovering...

I think is simple like this

I've been following the Spanish stories online, looking for the truth. Some name Cancellara as having been out with them on other occasions, but said at least he was working from the start line and put in some effort each day before falling off the back. Other stories have said Schleck and O'Grady partied in Seville, Malaga and Murcia, with a teammate they described as still being under contract with the team next year.

Knowing Seville was on the list made me crack up when O'Grady's brief phone interview in The Australian yesterday included:

“Mate, we stepped out of the team hotel at 10pm and stopped for a couple of beers at a bar in the local piazza,” O'Grady said.

“We had two beers, that's all. Some members of the European press over here have made us sound like we were on the drink all night.

“That's simply not true.

We had just ridden our guts out in the team time trial. I don't want to sound like I'm whinging, but the decision to pull us out of the race was harsh,” the South Australian added.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...and-andy-schleck/story-e6frg7mf-1225915776866

He got busted for drinking before stage 10, after a rest day, and he claims to have just finished the TTT, which was August 28?

On the Cancellara topic. I believe he's been out drinking the other times, but haven't seen anything in any language saying he was with them Monday. Riis wasn't working the race, so wasn't around for the other drinking nights. It would have been stupid to go out while he's at the race for a few days.

Fabian's tweet from after stage 10:

Really fast start today. I am pretty happy about the day even i finished in the "gruppeto".It looks i recoverded good on my restday. 11:52 AM Sep 7th via Twitter for iPhone
 
Feb 14, 2010
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hrotha said:
Actually I'm not sure Riis wouldn't have kicked out Andy if he was staying in the team. Andy's only remaining goal this season is Lombardy, which is secondary to him anyway, and there's a lot of time for things to cool down and get back to normal by the time the 2011 season starts after being kicked out at this Vuelta. Now if Riis and Andy were negotiating a contract extension or something that'd be different.

I agree. Some people have said that Andy leaving hurts Frank's chances for the race. In real life, Andy has finished way back on several stages, and showed no form at all. If he was really going to be a big help on climbs, he would have stayed in the hotel Monday so he'd been at his best on Tuesday.

Losing Andy and Stuart in the condition they're in won't hurt the Vuelta squad at all. It means fewer water bottles to carry, fewer mechanicals to look after, etc. O'Grady is on my Virtual Director Sportif team. That includes tons of races at all levels, and his only points this year were in that TTT.
 
Oct 16, 2009
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indurain666 said:
I mean, we never saw the likes of Azevedo, Padrnos and Hincapie going out for some heavy partying a few days the race would hit the Alps, when they were riding for Armstrong.
Good point. Next year maybe Riis should shelve his pre-season survival camps and go snorting cocaine off of strippers in Texas instead, so Bert and the guys can get it out of their system.
 
Jul 18, 2010
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Cerberus said:
I doubt it. Would Riis kick out Cancellare or Schleck if he was actually staying? Of cause not. Would Riis Kick out 2 people going on a drinking spree, but not the third? Unlikely - the hypocrisy would be way to transparent, and while I firmly believe that everybody is a hypocrite most people don't like to be transparent about it. Also of cause there isn't the slightest thread of evidence that Cancellara was there like for example Andy or Stuart saying "hey Cancellara was there, how come he didn't get kicked out?"

...and the media would've definitely found a source that acknowledeged this fact if there was even the slightest rumour that he was there.
 
Nov 2, 2009
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theswordsman said:
.....

On the other hand, if Riis said 5:00 for some bizarre reason and it was really 1:00, the riders should be talking to a lawyer, because their employer has publicly, in media around the world, done serious harm to their reputations that could cost them future personal sponsors and income, etc. But I haven't seen either use the word "sue".

.....

AFAIK the rest of the world is not as litigious as the US.

I think you'd be laughed at in Australia if you sued for something like that.
 
Feb 14, 2010
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Spare Tyre said:
AFAIK the rest of the world is not as litigious as the US.

I think you'd be laughed at in Australia if you sued for something like that.

Australia is about the size of the continental United States, and we have fourteen times as many people as you in the same amount of space. Things happen. We're not allowed to toss dwarves either. :cool: And suing only works if you're telling the truth and the other guy is lying.


In the US it would be a violation of employment law. I've got two Management degrees, and spent seven years in a management position. I know from first hand experience that bad employees can say anything they damn well please, while I had to hold my tongue, especially when their future employment possibilities are concerned. If I'm an athlete or an actor and someone tells the press something that might cause people to not want to hire me, and cost me millions of dollars in future income, I wouldn't really care how many Australians laughed.

It''s that type of management responsibility that has Riis refusing to give details while Schleck and O'Grady are allowed to lie to the press, future employers, and their fans about what went on.

Before this event, the Spanish press, reporting what people had seen, already had the two guys out partying in Seville, Malaga and Murcia, along with a teammate some name as Cancellara. So this wasn't a one time thing, and it's not Riis's word against theirs.

According to La Gazzetta dello Sport, it was Saxo Bank Technical Director Trey Greenwood who was waiting for the two when they stumbled in at 5:30 in the morning after a "drinking spree". Some of the European press just named their source as a senior Saxo Bank member. But Greenwqood isn't their boss, so he can speak to the press about what actually happened without worries.

I've looked at over 150 International stories on this with the help of Google News and Google Translate. I believe that Schleck and O'Grady were out getting drunk and were in sorry condition, with no sleep, less than eight hours before they were meant to get on their bikes for a highly paid work day.

I believe Schleck lied in a quickly sent press release. I believe that O'Grady lied in a phone interview with The Australian to try to cover his ****, and am honestly concerned for the guy because he tried to defend the actions by saying he had just ridden his **** off in the Team Time Trial, which was actually on August 28.

I believe that Schleck tried to make Riis look bad by insinuating that he was the one that caught them, and was in a bar at the time he did so. That Schleck press release caused a lot of people, including journalists, to leap to the riders defense, accuse Riis of overacting, of seeking revenge against guys who were leaving, and saying that because of his own past, he apparently had no right in their minds to enforce any rules whatsoever. I believe that the actions and lies of both riders showed disrespect for their teammates, the team, Riis, the fans and the sport. That's a lot of harm for two guys trying to cover their butts after a drinking spree.

Riis has said that O'Grady is lying to himself but has no right to lie to him. He's also said in response that he obviously wouldn't have sent guys home for having one or two drinks.

It was in a different situation, but I hope people remember that Michael Rassmussen was fired and pulled from the Tour de France not for a positive doping test, but because his team found out that he lied to them. I'm not defending Rassmussen, I'm saying that these two guys get added to the list of people who have done wrong in cycling and lied to protect themselves.

If fans want to stand by them because of past performances or whatever, that's their prerogative. God help me, I was an Armstrong fan a couple of years ago, and read Bruyneel's book online. But it's time to stop with the one or two drinks, one AM, I've done that myself before nonsense. These guys screwed up big time, it apparently wasn't the first time in even this race, and they continue to lie to you about it.

I've posted links to everything in earlier posts in the thread. One of the sporting.dk articles also quoted someone as suggesting that the two were probably also smoking something "as usual". If it is "the usual", even if it's tobacco, it's not something a professional cyclist should be doing. Smoky lungs and dehydration from alcohol aren't the way to start a stage race.

Another senior source in the Danish cycling world have no desire to come forward with names. Men han forklarer, at både Andy Schleck og Stuart O'Grady er kendt for at elske de våde varer. But he explains that both Andy Schleck and Stuart O'Grady are known to love the wet goods.

- De er virkelig glade for våde varer, og jeg er sikker på, at der som sædvanlig er røget en del indenbords, forklarer han til Newspaq. - They are really excited wet goods, and I am sure that as usual, smoked a portion inboard, he explains to Newspaq.
http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/riis-haaber-andy-fik-en-laerestreg
 
theswordsman,

The smoking part is due to a bad translation. Røget (smoked) has more than 1 meaning in Danish and in this context it's part of a maritime expression "der er røget en del indenbords" which means quite a bit (of the water) ended up in the ship. We use that when somebody has been drinking a lot.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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theswordsman said:
I've looked at over 150 International stories on this with the help of Google News and Google Translate.

B.Rasmussen said:
theswordsman,

The smoking part is due to a bad translation. Røget (smoked) has more than 1 meaning in Danish and in this context it's part of a maritime expression "der er røget en del indenbords" which means quite a bit (of the water) ended up in the ship. We use that when somebody has been drinking a lot.

Gosh swordsman, I hope the other 149 translations were better!
 
hrotha said:
You know you're in trouble when people have to point out "noooo, the translation is wrong, haha, it's not that they were smoking, it's just that they were totally drunk".

I wasn't trying to defend them in any way, I just corrected that wrong part so he doesn't spend time trying to find more info on smoking. I have no doubt that they were drunk as hell, and that's both from the reports, official and unofficial, and from their reputations.
 
B.Rasmussen said:
I wasn't trying to defend them in any way, I just corrected that wrong part so he doesn't spend time trying to find more info on smoking. I have no doubt that they were drunk as hell, and that's both from the reports, official and unofficial, and from their reputations.
Oh, I didn't think you were defending them, don't worry. I just couldn't resist (my remark by itself is still true after all).
 
Jul 16, 2010
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theswordsman said:
Blablabla

There are many countries with a higher population density(and a better HDI before you start crying about how good it is to live in the USA) that don't sue on a daily basis like some Americans seem to do. It's like you guys can't stand anything and start suing and threatening people for the smallest of things(the Mosque thing at Ground Zero for example. People in the USA getting so upset about it yet they're too stupid to realise it's not exactly a mosque they want to build there. More a foundation that wants to modernise the Islam.).

I do (mostly) agree with you about the topic at hand though.


---

Andy Schleck apologised to Riis in a text message. While O'Grady keeps lying...

I say let's stop the hate for Andy here and direct it towards O'Grady!:p
 
Mar 13, 2009
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theswordsman said:
Andy made it worse by stating that Riis was in a bar when he saw them come in.

Again you might have found a bad translation, or the same story has been reported differently. I have a link where Andy states that they'd been sitting on the patio of a bar when Bjarne walked by and saw them:

"Es war am Ruhetag. Wir haben erst gegen 22.00 Uhr gegessen, danach sind wir noch auf eine Terrasse. Bjarne hat uns gesehen, aber ich habe nicht gedacht, dass ich etwas Falsches machen würde. Bjarne hat seine Regeln, und das war wohl dagegen."

"It was on the rest day. We only ate at around 10 pm, then we went to the patio of a bar. Bjarne saw us, but I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. Bjarne has his rules, and apparently, this was against them."

http://www.tageblatt.lu/index.php/sports/44543.html

theswordsman said:
There's plenty of information in this thread alone for people with an open mind. Please page back a bit if you think it was just a drink.

I really appreciate what you're doing - you're actually researching and backing your points up with valid sources and quotes. However I hope you can also accept the fact that sometimes translations are unreliable (as the "smoking" proved), and that the same story can be reported in many many different ways. Therefore I think that no one can ever be sure of who is telling the truth and who is lying in this case. The fact that some people chose to believe Schleck and O'Grady does not make them narrow-minded people, as you suggest, they simply follow different media and see the story from a different angle.

In my opinion, this incident (regardless of how late it was and how much alcohol was consumed) suggests that Riis had lost a considerable amount of his power within the team, maybe even of his credibility. With approximately half the team leaving and Riis being away on sponsor and rider hunt, the rules must have gradually loosened. Therefore he needed to set an example to show he is still in charge.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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theswordsman said:
... I believe that Schleck and O'Grady were out getting drunk and were in sorry condition...

I believe Schleck lied in a quickly sent press release. I believe that O'Grady lied in a phone interview...

I believe that Schleck tried to make Riis look bad by insinuating that he was the one that caught them, and was in a bar at the time he did so...
You may very well be right about all of this, but I don't understand how any of us can form an opinion on what happened based on what is available in the media. I have not read anywhere near 150 sources but from what I have read there are the riders' stories, which Riis is experienced enough not to contradict outright, and there are plenty of "unnamed sources" who could be very legitimate Saxo personnel or could just as easily be the dog that lay on the mat beside the pub's door. It depends on the integrity of each journalist. So yes, they may have had their drink on that night, but we just don't have the goods to say who's lying and who's honest.
 
Sep 3, 2010
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In my opinion, this incident (regardless of how late it was and how much alcohol was consumed) suggests that Riis had lost a considerable amount of his power within the team, maybe even of his credibility. With approximately half the team leaving and Riis being away on sponsor and rider hunt, the rules must have gradually loosened. Therefore he needed to set an example to show he is still in charge.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you here. DCU has because of this incident been out saying that Bjarne made a mistake not bringing Matti Breschel (preparing for the worlds) to the Vuelta. I totally agree, I really don't get why he is not there. Matti begged Bjare to let him go and Bjarne ignored him. DCU think that Bjarne might be angry at Breschel. Source:

http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/schlecks-nattesjov-aergrer-ekstra-i-dcu

Futhermore Jacob Fuglsang has complained that it seems like the leaders in SaxoBank don't care about him or the results he might do anymore. It is fine with the teammates but no leaders og sportsdirectors from SaxoBank has had contact with him since he won tour og DK. and he hasn't had a sportsdirector since Kim Andersen left. Source:

http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/fuglsang-riis-er-ligeglad-med-mig

If this is the generel atitude towards the cyclists leaving SaxoBank then there is no doubt that Bjarne has lost power. What cyclist or any other human would care about sticking to the rules when the Leaders in the company don't care about your results anyway? b.t.w. Fuglsang has done nothing wrong.
 
Aug 27, 2010
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Ruxen1989 said:
I agree with you here. DCU has because of this incident been out saying that Bjarne made a mistake not bringing Matti Breschel (preparing for the worlds) to the Vuelta. I totally agree, I really don't get why he is not there. Matti begged Bjare to let him go and Bjarne ignored him. DCU think that Bjarne might be angry at Breschel. Source:

http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/schlecks-nattesjov-aergrer-ekstra-i-dcu

Comments by Jesper Worre ought to be disregarded! He is a bitter old power hungry man that loves to point out other peoples mistakes and make himself look better in the shining light of hindsight. The fact that he is still allowed to lead an organisation that is supposed to look after the danish riders interests baffles me to no end. The only thing Worre is interested in is himself :mad:


Ruxen1989 said:
Futhermore Jacob Fuglsang has complained that it seems like the leaders in SaxoBank don't care about him or the results he might do anymore. It is fine with the teammates but no leaders og sportsdirectors from SaxoBank has had contact with him since he won tour og DK. and he hasn't had a sportsdirector since Kim Andersen left. Source:

http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/fuglsang-riis-er-ligeglad-med-mig

If this is the generel atitude towards the cyclists leaving SaxoBank then there is no doubt that Bjarne has lost power. What cyclist or any other human would care about sticking to the rules when the Leaders in the company don't care about your results anyway? b.t.w. Fuglsang has done nothing wrong.

Fuglsang hasn't done anything wrong?! He has been arrogant the whole season, talking to the press about all sorts of stuff (like now), by all accounts he handled the contracts negotions with Bjarne very badly as well. And now after his season objectives are over, he want the team to call him and pat him on the back now and then? And when they don't he calls the danish press and make them run a story on it! He could have called some staff at saxo bank if he was worried that they have forgotten him. He of all people should know they are understaffed in the DS department right now, and may not be able to cuddle the riders as much as usual.
 
Sep 3, 2010
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Arrogant Fuglsang ?

Fuglsang isn't arrogant. I think he says what he thinks is right and that he trust himself to do the right thing and he nows he is good. That my friend is called selfconfidense and the more you have of that as a cyclist the better. It is not against the team rules to talk like Fulsang has done to the media so he hasn't done anything wrong. Danes are just mad at him because he is leaving Bjarne.

well lets listen to what Andy has to say about it in an interview to danish television: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db8eOSb_frQ
 
Aug 27, 2010
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Ruxen1989 said:
Fuglsang isn't arrogant. I think he says what he thinks is right and that he trust himself to do the right thing and he nows he is good. That my friend is called selfconfidense and the more you have of that as a cyclist the better. It is not against the team rules to talk like Fulsang has done to the media so he hasn't done anything wrong. Danes are just mad at him because he is leaving Bjarne.

well lets listen to what Andy has to say about it in an interview to danish television: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db8eOSb_frQ

I never liked Fuglsang much he always seemed to be better at talking than cycling, I regard him as a bit arrogant, you say he is selfconfident. We will just have to agree to disagree ;)

With regards to the interview, he admits to breaking the rules, but not to lying about it. So according to Andy he was thrown out for having two beers and going home at 1am. But Bjarne said they wouldnt have gotten thrown out for one or two beers. So all in all we're not really further.
 
Sep 3, 2010
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Ney the Viking said:
I never liked Fuglsang much he always seemed to be better at talking than cycling, I regard him as a bit arrogant, you say he is selfconfident. We will just have to agree to disagree ;)

With regards to the interview, he admits to breaking the rules, but not to lying about it. So according to Andy he was thrown out for having two beers and going home at 1am. But Bjarne said they wouldnt have gotten thrown out for one or two beers. So all in all we're not really further.

Ok. with me;)

No we will probably never get the truth about who is lying. I would really like to believe Andy, I like his calm atitude and I think his comments in the interview (or in generel) shows that he has a lot of character. On the other hand getting thrown out for two beers?!
 

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Ney the Viking said:
I never liked Fuglsang much he always seemed to be better at talking than cycling, I regard him as a bit arrogant, you say he is selfconfident. We will just have to agree to disagree ;)

With regards to the interview, he admits to breaking the rules, but not to lying about it. So according to Andy he was thrown out for having two beers and going home at 1am. But Bjarne said they wouldnt have gotten thrown out for one or two beers. So all in all we're not really further.

Rewatch the video ;)

He says he had "a couple of beers on the terrace" and that they met Bjarne.
What he doesn't say is where they went after and if there were more beers - so he is probably telling the truth..... just leaving some other bits out.

Again- he has accepted the decsion, even if he believes it is harsh.

Teams do not mind riders having a beer or glass of wine or 2, so I would side with Riis on this.
Remember the drinking race 'game' at the Fuji Servetto camp?
 
Aug 27, 2010
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The interviewer asked "have you been telling the truth" to wich he said yes. I take that as previous interviews as well have been true, as per Andy. And I am fairly certain the first interview was about meeting with Bjarne at 1am and then going home, right?

Also the danish reporter concludes that Andy is sticking to his story of only having a couple of beer.

But still, if you are right, only telling part of the truth to put yourself in a better light is still fishy imho.