- Jul 6, 2014
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So what's he being hung on?
Something like:
Idiots believe that nice guys don't dope,
Hansen is a nice guy,
therefore, Hansen must dope.
(and we are therefore not idiots).
Or is it more:
All pro cyclists dope,
Hansen is a pro cyclist,
therefore, Hansen must dope.
Something like:
Idiots believe that nice guys don't dope,
Hansen is a nice guy,
therefore, Hansen must dope.
(and we are therefore not idiots).
Or is it more:
All pro cyclists dope,
Hansen is a pro cyclist,
therefore, Hansen must dope.
- Mar 13, 2009
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Re:
something akin to this.
less the science of metabolite testing.
more the social science and psychology and sociology, when one understands that a comprehensive doping program could offer between 15-20%, and with recovery doping during the 21 day GTs, in the second and third week, we can ascertain who has their own motoman. I think Hoberman and Yesalis in N America academy alluded to this, and their research and study of steroids in professional sports. A pro athlete wont surrender such an advantage voluntarily, like game theory, you will prepare in a triangulation to the field, the culture, and your direct opposition. individual or team. in cycling, it is called, "being professional", a felicitous euphemism that perfectly distills the culture. Savulescu at Oxford has also insinuated similar opinions. Now, one may offer a devil's advocate "what if a rider is merely a domestique, and does not wish to win by hook or by crook?", well, the culture still informs the norms and mores of the riders that surround the domestique. And it also rises the thresholds required to do the work of the domestique. You substitue a pressure to win, either self-inflicted, or from DS, or manager, or salary demanded (Oleg Tinkov of Sagan for instance), or the pressure to do the work on the front and in the wind by the DS in the teamcar, then go and get the bidons and food. There is still a relative pressure. And you need to go and bang at 98% tomorrow, without any cortisone at night? or with cortisone at night?
it is not indicting an individual, or assessing the character of an individual. indeed, the poster(member) 131313 who has ridden professional in the N America domestic peloton for the last decade, said, nice guys dope, bad guys dont dope, you cant ascertain ones character thru this prism. and while you're at it, ask 131313 about passing Armstrong on the queen stage of Tour of Gila in 2009 when he was going backwards for Mellow Johnny's. Bottle Leipheimer may have won that Tour of Gila for the Mellow Johnny's team when they would not let Astana enter 3 riders, or 2 riders that year. And about 2 months later, Armstrong beat Wiggins for 3rd at the Tour de France. tell me 131313 did not have a wry tragi-absurdist disposition on his visage when Prance has the frown on the podium next to Pistolero and Andy Shleck who i will refuse to call nor ever utter Shlecklette... damn
in Europe, tho, if you are at the pointy end of a monument, or a GT (gc), i would say, "not possible". and if one was clean, you would need to be extremely fortunate to win a stage and make a breakaway, especially over the last 6 years as Cavendish and Kittell have had a super support group, lassooing and corralling the field to keep a break within check for the first ten stages that usually have field sprints. The amount of work a domestique has to do, on the front, and getting bidons and food, mean their expenditure of watts is among the highest in the field. Even if they are near the lantern rouge.
i like zakeen hansen. he used to post over at weightweenies, i have not been posting there for half a decade, assume he may well have stopped too. indeed, a nice guy, very generous answering questions from the forum members.
the concern about hansen, is really an idictment on the peloton, not about zakeen. whether or not he dopes is irrelevant to this topic, he is more invoked as a cypher. a code, "will a domestique ride 3 GTs, getting in stage winning breaks in the third week, have another 30 odd race days, even as a build to be in form for domestique duties, will a domestique be able to achieve this clean?" my answer, i dont think a domestique can manage that workload without some assistance. that is as diplomatic as i can be.
The Hegelian said:
something akin to this.
less the science of metabolite testing.
more the social science and psychology and sociology, when one understands that a comprehensive doping program could offer between 15-20%, and with recovery doping during the 21 day GTs, in the second and third week, we can ascertain who has their own motoman. I think Hoberman and Yesalis in N America academy alluded to this, and their research and study of steroids in professional sports. A pro athlete wont surrender such an advantage voluntarily, like game theory, you will prepare in a triangulation to the field, the culture, and your direct opposition. individual or team. in cycling, it is called, "being professional", a felicitous euphemism that perfectly distills the culture. Savulescu at Oxford has also insinuated similar opinions. Now, one may offer a devil's advocate "what if a rider is merely a domestique, and does not wish to win by hook or by crook?", well, the culture still informs the norms and mores of the riders that surround the domestique. And it also rises the thresholds required to do the work of the domestique. You substitue a pressure to win, either self-inflicted, or from DS, or manager, or salary demanded (Oleg Tinkov of Sagan for instance), or the pressure to do the work on the front and in the wind by the DS in the teamcar, then go and get the bidons and food. There is still a relative pressure. And you need to go and bang at 98% tomorrow, without any cortisone at night? or with cortisone at night?
it is not indicting an individual, or assessing the character of an individual. indeed, the poster(member) 131313 who has ridden professional in the N America domestic peloton for the last decade, said, nice guys dope, bad guys dont dope, you cant ascertain ones character thru this prism. and while you're at it, ask 131313 about passing Armstrong on the queen stage of Tour of Gila in 2009 when he was going backwards for Mellow Johnny's. Bottle Leipheimer may have won that Tour of Gila for the Mellow Johnny's team when they would not let Astana enter 3 riders, or 2 riders that year. And about 2 months later, Armstrong beat Wiggins for 3rd at the Tour de France. tell me 131313 did not have a wry tragi-absurdist disposition on his visage when Prance has the frown on the podium next to Pistolero and Andy Shleck who i will refuse to call nor ever utter Shlecklette... damn
in Europe, tho, if you are at the pointy end of a monument, or a GT (gc), i would say, "not possible". and if one was clean, you would need to be extremely fortunate to win a stage and make a breakaway, especially over the last 6 years as Cavendish and Kittell have had a super support group, lassooing and corralling the field to keep a break within check for the first ten stages that usually have field sprints. The amount of work a domestique has to do, on the front, and getting bidons and food, mean their expenditure of watts is among the highest in the field. Even if they are near the lantern rouge.
i like zakeen hansen. he used to post over at weightweenies, i have not been posting there for half a decade, assume he may well have stopped too. indeed, a nice guy, very generous answering questions from the forum members.
the concern about hansen, is really an idictment on the peloton, not about zakeen. whether or not he dopes is irrelevant to this topic, he is more invoked as a cypher. a code, "will a domestique ride 3 GTs, getting in stage winning breaks in the third week, have another 30 odd race days, even as a build to be in form for domestique duties, will a domestique be able to achieve this clean?" my answer, i dont think a domestique can manage that workload without some assistance. that is as diplomatic as i can be.
Re:
Big difference though is that with fractured sternum (which I have experienced) there can be no displacement. Think of a plate which has a crack but is not broken. As a result 99.9% of movement is not painful. I only discovered I had done mine when warming up for the following week's rugby match and getting a strange shooting pain in the chest when throwing long passes.
With a rib (which I have not) I'm guessing that there may be displacement and potential for further movement, and hence the sufferer's range of possible movement would be less and the daily pain/inconvenience would be more.
How this translates to long rides on a bike I can't say with confidence but I wouldn't have thought it impossible to ride with a sternum fracture, certainly easier than with ribs.
Catwhoorg said:
Big difference though is that with fractured sternum (which I have experienced) there can be no displacement. Think of a plate which has a crack but is not broken. As a result 99.9% of movement is not painful. I only discovered I had done mine when warming up for the following week's rugby match and getting a strange shooting pain in the chest when throwing long passes.
With a rib (which I have not) I'm guessing that there may be displacement and potential for further movement, and hence the sufferer's range of possible movement would be less and the daily pain/inconvenience would be more.
How this translates to long rides on a bike I can't say with confidence but I wouldn't have thought it impossible to ride with a sternum fracture, certainly easier than with ribs.
- Sep 29, 2012
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Re: Re:
according to wiki, you would usually only break your sternum in such events that also cause severe damage to other parts of the body, particularly lungs and ribs. Iow, it seems rather difficult to only break your sternum and nothing else.
what did you do to break your sternum?
odd, this completely goes against what wikipedia says about sternal fractures.Jacques (7 ch) said:
according to wiki, you would usually only break your sternum in such events that also cause severe damage to other parts of the body, particularly lungs and ribs. Iow, it seems rather difficult to only break your sternum and nothing else.
what did you do to break your sternum?
- Sep 29, 2012
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Re:
in this particular case Wiki seems to make a hell of a lot of sense though.
here's another link: http://lifeinthefastlane.com/sternal-fractures/
Dear Wiggo said:God no. Someone disagrees with wiki, the arbiter of truth. Get the torches, tar and feathers!!!
in this particular case Wiki seems to make a hell of a lot of sense though.
here's another link: http://lifeinthefastlane.com/sternal-fractures/
seems Jacques and Adam are two quite unique cases.
http://www.physio-pedia.com/Sternal_fracture
11. Physical therapy management
Once serious conditions have been ruled out and the sternal fracture has been confirmed as minor and non-displaced, treatment can be commenced.
Overhead lifting, pushing, pulling, and lifting objects that weigh more than 2 to 3 kilograms and activities which place large amounts of stress through the sternum, particularly lying face down and applying direct pressure or impact to the chest, should be avoided until the fracture has healed.
...
In the final stages of rehabilitation, a gradual return to activity or sport can occur as provided symptoms do not increase. When returning to contact sports or ball sports, the use of protective padding or chest guards may be required to prevent further injury.
Patients with more severe sternal fractures, particularly those which require surgical correction, or when other structures have been involved, will usually require a prolonged period of management over many months before recovery can take place.
11. Physical therapy management
Once serious conditions have been ruled out and the sternal fracture has been confirmed as minor and non-displaced, treatment can be commenced.
Overhead lifting, pushing, pulling, and lifting objects that weigh more than 2 to 3 kilograms and activities which place large amounts of stress through the sternum, particularly lying face down and applying direct pressure or impact to the chest, should be avoided until the fracture has healed.
...
In the final stages of rehabilitation, a gradual return to activity or sport can occur as provided symptoms do not increase. When returning to contact sports or ball sports, the use of protective padding or chest guards may be required to prevent further injury.
Patients with more severe sternal fractures, particularly those which require surgical correction, or when other structures have been involved, will usually require a prolonged period of management over many months before recovery can take place.
Re: Re:
Where did I say he wasn't doping?
My point was more that he has a succesful life outside of cycling too, unlike many
If he is doping, he needs to up the program
Benotti69 said:
Where did I say he wasn't doping?
My point was more that he has a succesful life outside of cycling too, unlike many
If he is doping, he needs to up the program
Re: Re:
he's a 1 on the suspicion index. So he's a low risk doper. And one with a strong public profile. More than others his salary is dependent on his image (as opposed to his results), so doping for him means more risk and less reward compared to racers who depend fully on their individual results.peloton said:Benotti69 said:
Where did I say he wasn't doping?
My point was more that he has a succesful life outside of cycling too, unlike many
If he is doping, he needs to up the program
Re: Re:
Hit by a double tackle playing rugby: one high/ one low, one from the left and one from the right. It didn't feel like anything more than a big hit at the time (I finished the game) and as I say it was only the following week I realised something was up. It was social rugby, so no training in between times.
Your following post (61 in this thread) refers to the possibility of fracture without displacement which is what I had. I took three or tour weeks off and was then back playing.
sniper said:
Hit by a double tackle playing rugby: one high/ one low, one from the left and one from the right. It didn't feel like anything more than a big hit at the time (I finished the game) and as I say it was only the following week I realised something was up. It was social rugby, so no training in between times.
Your following post (61 in this thread) refers to the possibility of fracture without displacement which is what I had. I took three or tour weeks off and was then back playing.
- Sep 29, 2012
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Well guys were riding the 3 GTs in one year before EPO, during the EPO era and now in whatever era this is so not sure what if anything that even suggests. Marino Lejarreta was the most famous to do so and his aim was to finish in the Top 10 in all thre GTs in one year. Ironically it was his team-mate at ONCE, Eudardo Chozas who came closest to achieveing this feat when he finished 11th Vuelta/10th Giro & 11th Tour in 1991.
Re: Re:
so seems possible to continue riding under the right circumstances.
cheers, appreciate the clarification.Jacques (7 ch) said:
so seems possible to continue riding under the right circumstances.
- Mar 13, 2009
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i have no doubt, that Adam Hansen would have read this thread by now, but if zakeen comes by this thread from now, yo AH, this thread is less about an individual, and it is more a j'accuse on the peloton. Fans reach a point, where they are betrayed when they discover certain truths and the pundits and commentators maintain the myths that are parroted ad nauseam. hence, this is the backlash. The Clinic is the foment of the backlash
i think most who are anti-doping, are less anti-doping, than more anti beingliedtoandfeelinglikeyouareachump
when Liggett and others tell us about a new clean era, tell us that things have changed, yet power outputs on the final HC climb in the Queen stage has not changed, when like USPS, Sky lead a team of 6 onto the final HC climb on the Queen stage, when the peloton is still about 30 riders thick on stage 16 before the final HC ascent on the Queen stage after multiple HC passes, folks know it is BS. When JV tells us some bald faced lies, when riders like Ryder have been better riders when we are told they are now clean (versus when they were charging), and we are never told about the positive sanctions that were anonymous and under-the-carpet.
so the amorphous ragtag bunch called The Clinic 12, evolves, as was christened by JV. which will forever come back to haunt.
i think most who are anti-doping, are less anti-doping, than more anti beingliedtoandfeelinglikeyouareachump
when Liggett and others tell us about a new clean era, tell us that things have changed, yet power outputs on the final HC climb in the Queen stage has not changed, when like USPS, Sky lead a team of 6 onto the final HC climb on the Queen stage, when the peloton is still about 30 riders thick on stage 16 before the final HC ascent on the Queen stage after multiple HC passes, folks know it is BS. When JV tells us some bald faced lies, when riders like Ryder have been better riders when we are told they are now clean (versus when they were charging), and we are never told about the positive sanctions that were anonymous and under-the-carpet.
so the amorphous ragtag bunch called The Clinic 12, evolves, as was christened by JV. which will forever come back to haunt.
- Mar 13, 2009
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Re: Re:
i had to edit this post a tad for more clarity, and coherency.
basically, i wished to say when zakeen reads (or had read it), it was/is, not a personal j'accuse. (i dont know how that drefus'ian idiom works when transposed to english grammar).
life is triangulating decisions when you are presented with ethical no-win dilemmas. so this thread is more the manifestation of this practical scenario, a cornellian dilemma. (not sure invoking that is technically correct)
there is rarely a nuanced exposition of doping and anti-doping. As i elucidated, i believe, on the preponderance this Clinic forum, is about anti-doping as backlash (not all, some have a more evolved position, Benotti, DW, D-Q plus others tho few), but mostly it is, imo, a backlash. And this backlash occurs, to an extent, determined by a western, especially anglophile, culture, that constructed certain mores about sport and ethics, sportsmanship, fairplay and competition on merits, that on a closer inspection, it does not hold validity.
i dont have a well evolved position on it, but this is not an apologia on free rein or reign, doping. because sports is/are nothing without the basis being rule(s). but it is incoherent, where the rules as written down, conflict for the insider versus the outsider (fans who are ignorant of the insider norm/rule)
42x16ss said:
i had to edit this post a tad for more clarity, and coherency.
basically, i wished to say when zakeen reads (or had read it), it was/is, not a personal j'accuse. (i dont know how that drefus'ian idiom works when transposed to english grammar).
life is triangulating decisions when you are presented with ethical no-win dilemmas. so this thread is more the manifestation of this practical scenario, a cornellian dilemma. (not sure invoking that is technically correct)
there is rarely a nuanced exposition of doping and anti-doping. As i elucidated, i believe, on the preponderance this Clinic forum, is about anti-doping as backlash (not all, some have a more evolved position, Benotti, DW, D-Q plus others tho few), but mostly it is, imo, a backlash. And this backlash occurs, to an extent, determined by a western, especially anglophile, culture, that constructed certain mores about sport and ethics, sportsmanship, fairplay and competition on merits, that on a closer inspection, it does not hold validity.
i dont have a well evolved position on it, but this is not an apologia on free rein or reign, doping. because sports is/are nothing without the basis being rule(s). but it is incoherent, where the rules as written down, conflict for the insider versus the outsider (fans who are ignorant of the insider norm/rule)
- Jul 6, 2014
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Re: Re:
That's a nice nuanced response.
The technique of reasoning - not just here, but in many clinic threads - is very close to reductio ad absurdum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
i.e. you take any particular rider or team or recent event, and demonstrate that any conclusion which does not entail doping is necessarily absurd and therefore false. And so the truth of universal doping in the peloton is established.
What's interesting is that content about the particular is always quite irrelevant (even though many threads get filled with bits of evidence or quasi evidence) - the force of the argument rests on taking any particular rider or team and generating the absurd logical consequences in the case of them being clean. So, as you say Hansen is just a cypher or a code. He could be X, Y or Z and the same reasoning would apply and establish him as a doper.
I quite like this approach as a technique against those naive assumptions (i.e. of sport in the west) you wrote of.
But it has its limitations too, and they are quite obvious: namely, that there is no longer any point discussing any particulars. Any exercise in reasoning or discussion of evidence in any event is naturally reduced to one proposition: "The peloton is 100% dirty." Even if that is a true proposition - which I think it may well be - it's never really established. It's more just assumed and asserted in a way which denies any possible grounds to dissent.
blackcat said:
That's a nice nuanced response.
The technique of reasoning - not just here, but in many clinic threads - is very close to reductio ad absurdum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
i.e. you take any particular rider or team or recent event, and demonstrate that any conclusion which does not entail doping is necessarily absurd and therefore false. And so the truth of universal doping in the peloton is established.
What's interesting is that content about the particular is always quite irrelevant (even though many threads get filled with bits of evidence or quasi evidence) - the force of the argument rests on taking any particular rider or team and generating the absurd logical consequences in the case of them being clean. So, as you say Hansen is just a cypher or a code. He could be X, Y or Z and the same reasoning would apply and establish him as a doper.
I quite like this approach as a technique against those naive assumptions (i.e. of sport in the west) you wrote of.
But it has its limitations too, and they are quite obvious: namely, that there is no longer any point discussing any particulars. Any exercise in reasoning or discussion of evidence in any event is naturally reduced to one proposition: "The peloton is 100% dirty." Even if that is a true proposition - which I think it may well be - it's never really established. It's more just assumed and asserted in a way which denies any possible grounds to dissent.
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- Mar 13, 2009
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Re: Re:
my rule of thumb, is the assumption that a motoman recovery doping (insulin/hgh/blood/testo) with the preparation increase-theshold doping, offers in vicinity of 15% watts at threshold in the third week, in comparison to track&field Olympic finals and swimming Olympic finals differentials which are in vicinity of p'raps a single percent, for these athletes who are all aways off the bell curve.
ofcourse, usually there are only a few sections of stages where the GC riders will be au bloc (or near threshold) contesting the win, ~3-4 finishing ascents, plus 2 chronos. Ofcourse, a team like USPS or Sky will try to make all ascents close to threshold to make all climbs relevant for the GC riders and to decimate the peloton.
on the whole, listening to those shelled from the sport, like Kohl, Jaksche, even LAnce, it really requires a suspension of disbelief to buy this sport holus bolus. Its not an allegation of any individual rider's character. On an ethical or moral view, I think the doping concern is actually neutral on this judgement. Even when one deconstructs the disinformation (or lying), I think this can be seen as a neutral concern also.
I also know that my free-thought aint seeking to deprive an individual of his/her liberty and putting them in the clink, and my words will not impinge on their income. If they have such concern, their target should be cookson mcquaid and hein not me. And Armstrong, he took the income, the UCI took the boon of greater OLN revenues (not tv rights but metaphor for corporate america) thinking the American dollar was expanding the revenue base (without ever looking in the rearview and understanding Lemond's long-term effect on the sport's value on the continent, which was negligble), never appreciating that Armstrong and US pro sport culture, cycling was never gonna gain traction versus the 3 pro team sports, plus hockey, then individual sports like golf/tennis. cycling was never gonna make headway in this culture re-establishing an equilibrium where they had a cut of this market. UCI counted the dollars upfront, took the OLN tv monies and ran to the bank and spent them, took the new sponsors of div1 and div 2 and the Protour teams, and compromised the next decade with a new 1998 doping embroglio. Armstrong's boon to cycling was never owned by the sport for the medium or long-term, it left with the "personality". It was personality versus sport that recruited the crowd and revenues, and the UCI knew well he was a fraud. The UCI on behalf of the sport spent it up front, to the long-term detriment of the sport. There is the capitalism tension where the individual's incentive, comes into conflict with the greater good of their employer, closely married to long term versus short term prioritization.
conceded/ and agree.The Hegelian said:
my rule of thumb, is the assumption that a motoman recovery doping (insulin/hgh/blood/testo) with the preparation increase-theshold doping, offers in vicinity of 15% watts at threshold in the third week, in comparison to track&field Olympic finals and swimming Olympic finals differentials which are in vicinity of p'raps a single percent, for these athletes who are all aways off the bell curve.
ofcourse, usually there are only a few sections of stages where the GC riders will be au bloc (or near threshold) contesting the win, ~3-4 finishing ascents, plus 2 chronos. Ofcourse, a team like USPS or Sky will try to make all ascents close to threshold to make all climbs relevant for the GC riders and to decimate the peloton.
on the whole, listening to those shelled from the sport, like Kohl, Jaksche, even LAnce, it really requires a suspension of disbelief to buy this sport holus bolus. Its not an allegation of any individual rider's character. On an ethical or moral view, I think the doping concern is actually neutral on this judgement. Even when one deconstructs the disinformation (or lying), I think this can be seen as a neutral concern also.
I also know that my free-thought aint seeking to deprive an individual of his/her liberty and putting them in the clink, and my words will not impinge on their income. If they have such concern, their target should be cookson mcquaid and hein not me. And Armstrong, he took the income, the UCI took the boon of greater OLN revenues (not tv rights but metaphor for corporate america) thinking the American dollar was expanding the revenue base (without ever looking in the rearview and understanding Lemond's long-term effect on the sport's value on the continent, which was negligble), never appreciating that Armstrong and US pro sport culture, cycling was never gonna gain traction versus the 3 pro team sports, plus hockey, then individual sports like golf/tennis. cycling was never gonna make headway in this culture re-establishing an equilibrium where they had a cut of this market. UCI counted the dollars upfront, took the OLN tv monies and ran to the bank and spent them, took the new sponsors of div1 and div 2 and the Protour teams, and compromised the next decade with a new 1998 doping embroglio. Armstrong's boon to cycling was never owned by the sport for the medium or long-term, it left with the "personality". It was personality versus sport that recruited the crowd and revenues, and the UCI knew well he was a fraud. The UCI on behalf of the sport spent it up front, to the long-term detriment of the sport. There is the capitalism tension where the individual's incentive, comes into conflict with the greater good of their employer, closely married to long term versus short term prioritization.
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