Additives that make a significant performance difference, but not doping

[Cloxxki]

I keeps bothering me that legal additives are kept out of the discussions.

I know for a fact, that there are things that can gain back some of the edge lost on doped riders. There's more between dry bread and CERA to get a rider prep'd for serious racing. There is more a rider can do to get fast, than to train, and dope.

When two equally talented riders train together, and one takes serious care of his additives, results between them will be easy to prodict.

While I don't have facts, I am convinced that the gains to be gotten from legal additives are signicant relative to super dope such as hormones and CERA. Maybe 30-50% of the gains? No way I am going to head into the race of the season, and not consider my addtives.
One single additive will not do the job, but every one works in it's own way, and they ardd up to some extent.

Now, I could offer you my personal list of favorite additives, but since I'm the first poster, perhaps it's more interesting if others join in.

If responses don't come, I'll eventually post some things I liked some years ago (my health has kept me out of racing lately). I consider a bike pro NOT serious about his/her additives a HUGE FOOL. The only thing more stupid is resorting to illegal dope before having seriously tried which additives you respond well to.
Additives, if they work for you, really are like "free lunch". Just, you invest time and some money in them. It goes beyond having carbs in your pre-race and race water bottles.

When internet posters can explain good performances in the light of anti-doping discussions, I think "this rider may be taking additives more seriously than the other".
Additives news does not make it to the front page of L'Equipe usually. Which is where pro riders go to research ways to ride as fast as last week's race winner.

Your comments please, before I share some of my favorites, and the source of my limited sports nutricional additives knowledge.

Thanks,

J

 

[Cobber]

I think the difference is as follows..... Additives such as vitamins are beneficial if there is a dietary deficiency. For almost every other type of additive (or supplement), however, there is no scientific evidence that they produce a beneficial effect. For doping products, there is a measureable physiological effect, and thus performance enhancement can be scientifically proven. Most over the counter dietary supplements provide a placebo effect, but probably not much more unless there is a dietary deficiency.

 

[Cloxxki]

I think if you dig into it, you'll be able to find scientifically proven performance enhancers which do not pose problems with WADA's list and regulations.
Olympians medallists will not scream this from the roof tops, because it's not in the newspapers yet for the the competition to take note of. Anti-doping controllers could care less when finding these additives, once identified as being as labelled.
I truly believe that well-informed world champs and Olympian medal prospects will rather miss the first plane to the Games, than to go without their preferred additives. And I know of a soigneur going out of his way to get ahold of freshly prepared additives, and making it to Beijing with them.

The "programs" mentioned for succesful protour teams that keep "clean" in their tests, with low blood values, may well be exploiting the nutricional additives better than the others. Even a few percent of performance gain, try and win that back legally...

 

[mercycle]

Anecdotal "evidence": extra Vitamin C (say 1000mg or so) after a hard workout (hills, intervals, stuff at or above LT) seemed to make the next day not so bad. Basically I felt it helped me recover with less soreness, less pain in the legs.

Of course I may not actually gone hard enough

 

[forty four]

you have to be educated on supplements and the human body to avoid the snake oil. but there are most certainly useful supps out there that help noticeably mostly i cant afford to take what i would take if i could but have used many products extensively in the past. its not epo but they do improve performance to some degree.

 

[Cloxxki]

Looking back at my best cycling results, I would not like my chances retrospectively without:
- D-Ribose (combined with a Caffeine energydrink as it can make me a slacker) V.I.Product!
- Calcium Pyruvate (gets me lean and mean quickly between seasons)
- Maltodextrine (pure powder form, no-brand, to save serious money)
- Tribulus Terrestris

All these are old knowledge.
New knowledge I have not brought into action too much:
- Hoodia (falsely banned from trade in Europe due to DSM "patent" and research)
- Ecdysteron
- Creatine Ethylester (less to stack up, more like race-aid)
- Rhodiola Rosea
- Bèta-alanine
etc, etc...

I was lucky to work with a trainer who didn't have a fear of self-education, and had a profoundly competitive, but fair play heart. Helped me a lot to be healthy and smart about things.
Now, I have a friend who is a former pharmacy professor, now running a sports supplements store. He keeps informed on the good stuff, and keeps talented riders winning, while remaining clean. Olympians come to him, but only tell their friends about it. You'd be interested to learn which riders actually DO spend their time off the bike researching things to get healthier and quicker. usually not the dumb guys, obviously. It is an entire study by itself, and goes being "trying what works". EPO works for everyone, and seems addictive.

If you feel that you are close to your realistic optimum in terms of training hours and dedication to race performance, it's time to get serious about additives. In lower leagues you'll spend more than you add in prize money, obviously. But you'll be able to tell that you have "a really good day" much more often.

 

[Escarabajo]

I think the difference is as follows..... Additives such as vitamins are beneficial if there is a dietary deficiency. For almost every other type of additive (or supplement), however, there is no scientific evidence that they produce a beneficial effect. For doping products, there is a measureable physiological effect, and thus performance enhancement can be scientifically proven. Most over the counter dietary supplements provide a placebo effect, but probably not much more unless there is a dietary deficiency.

+1.

I take B complex and aspirins and that’s it. But I am not an athlete anyway. Of course I would take Vitamin C if I know the next day on my 60 mile ride I'll be fresher.

I have to agree with Cobber on this one, although I don't have much knowledge on this matter. But I would think that if something gives an edge to everyone, then it would probably make the Ban List. It probably has more to do with deficiencies in different bodies.

I am also wondering what are those additives for that Cloxxki mentioned?

 

[_frost]

Looking back at my best cycling results, I would not like my chances retrospectively without:
- D-Ribose (combined with a Caffeine energydrink as it can make me a slacker) V.I.Product!
- Calcium Pyruvate (gets me lean and mean quickly between seasons)
- Maltodextrine (pure powder form, no-brand, to save serious money)
- Tribulus Terrestris

Erm, you do know what Maltodextrine is?

 

[Laszlo]

+1.

I take B complex and aspirins and that’s it. But I am not an athlete anyway. Of course I would take Vitamin C if I know the next day on my 60 mile ride I'll be fresher.

I have to agree with Cobber on this one, although I don't have much knowledge on this matter. But I would think that if something gives an edge to everyone, then it would probably make the Ban List. It probably has more to do with deficiencies in different bodies.

I am also wondering what are those additives for that Cloxxki mentioned?

Careful with the aspirin, it has been linked to pancreatic cancer.

 

[Escarabajo]

Careful with the aspirin, it has been linked to pancreatic cancer.

Thanks for the info. Do you have a link I can read?

I only use small dose before saturdays and sundays rides, but I am interested in knowing more about it.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Erm, you do know what Maltodextrine is?

Maltodextrin is a starch derived sugar used mostly as a food additive. Maltodextrine on the otherhand is an artifical sweetener.

 

[Izoard]

Maltodextrin is a starch derived sugar used mostly as a food additive. Maltodextrine on the otherhand is an artifical sweetener.

I wouldn't call Malto an artifical sweetener. It is a sugar, albeit one with a bit more complexity than your standard one chain sugar - think of it as a bunch of one chain sugar molecules stuck together.

Lots of sports drinks use Maltodextrin as either part of the carb intake, or all of it. For some people it works very well, for others it seems to cause some stomach upset issues. Dextrose and sugar (sucrose) are also frequent carb sources. And for that matter, so is Ribose!

In other words, Maltodextrin is hardly cutting edge news, as it is many of the sports drinks people use (e.g. GU2O, 1st Endurance).

Dextrose (powder glucose) tends to be very easily absorbed. Try eLoad or Gleukos, or make it yourself. Gatoraide is basically half dextrose and half sugar.

OK - read Hugh's comment again and he was referring to incorrect spelling! My bad on that part

 

[Rock7586]

I have experimented with aspirin / ibuprofen, pre ride. And the benefits seem marginal. Although lately I have gone without. I am a solid cat 3 rider

In the running forums the consensus seems to be better without. Stating something to the effect of the buffering that allows one to feel less pain, also reduces the recovery and adaptations. Making the high intensity training that you have done less effective.

And it seems like caffeine has a pretty safe and effective benefits.

Weight lifters highly tout the benefits of an ECA stack. (Ephedrine, Caffeine, Aspirin 25mg, 250mg, 325mg) Does anyone have any experience with this

 

[Cloxxki]

I am Dutch. In Dutch Maltodetrine is the sugar complex used in sports drinks. We probably use a different less confusing name for the artifical sweetener. The white powder I use is actually not all that sweet. Dit of a dull taste, but if CAN well be drunk without special additional taste. It's GREAT though with lemon sirup, tastes exactly like Extrann Ice that way.

D-Ribose is a sugar as well, but taken in 2-10g dosage. When taken before a race, it will noticably enhance recovery within the race. On longer races (like longer than an XC race) you'll want to put some in your second water bottle. The effect is near instantly.
When using D-Ribose in similar dosage for recovery, and I a serious here, it is known by many users to cut recovery time IN HALF. I know some older runners, who found that they'd recover much quicker, and managed to run more often per week, and subsequently got their times down again.
D-Ribose, simply said, is like the missing link (deficit if you will) that all our bodies suffer from, when intending to create ATP. LIke making pea soup. Without peas, or water, NO SOUP! Add the missing ingredient quicker, and you'll have soup appearing quicker. There is a limit to this, hence the dosage constraint.
D-Ribose is also known as a rare "medicine" to reduce symptoms for Fybromyalgia and Ecyphalomyelitus (chronical fatique syndrome) patients. This is significant, as there are no known medicine for these grave illnesses. That a thing such as D-Ribose should aid many patience in their quality of life, hints a direction for researchers to explore, that of metabolism and recovery of ATP. My mother has ME, but also bad hypoglycemia, making her pretty allergic to sugars such as d-ribose, bad luck.

Bèta-alanine.
I've sen riders using this, and changing as a rider.
One local packfiller (30 years in road cycling) got very emotional towards my friend (his supplier), as after a life of chasing a pack, he was mixing it up with the sprinters.
I never used it myself, but it's been explained to me as giving just that little bit extra. For sprinters, having a little bit extra creates a reserve, which they put to good us in the final, and ultimately on the line. It brings this difference, you arrive to the finale fresher, with more juice in the legs.

Calcium Pyruvate.
I always come back to this one. When feeling out of shape, having a less than impressive look in the mirror, undefined muscles, I go here.
If you're a generally fit athlete (no couch patato look), you won't lose much weight, but see a fat% reduction for sure. MUscle mass gained is the kind of muscle you want.
A good lady friend of mine, also associated with the pharmacist friend, and trained in pharmacie and diethics herself, used CP for 6 months straight, where usual advice is to use it only one month on end.
She started as a 60kg, Dutch national level racer, blessed with an athletical body, the kind that turns heads. Mixing it up with the famous girls on the circuits she liked. After 6 months, continuing her using (obviously very professional) training and nutricion scheme, she found herself a 50kg lean and mean race machine. Not kidding you. She's be the one girl in front, with Leontien van Moorsel being the only one capable of doing a chase, with what was left of the peloton fighting for dear life on her wheel. My friend found herself winning bike races as well as run-bike-runs, before dedicating her life to further academic studies, her business, and motherhood. Anyway, the CP seemed to be a real factor in taking her racing to the next level. This was, knowing as a professional what she was doing.

I don't think I should disclose my friend as a source (his website is far superior oer my humble recollection, would be so easy to link it), as that would make me less credible, commercial intersts, blah blah. These supplements are available everywhere though, and his business is but a small one, albeit the most professional I am aware of, in pharmaceutical (product preparation) and medical (research, documentation and support) terms.

For riders reading The Clinic, researching how to get faster, considering dope, as unananimously on CN "everyone is on the program anyway"...do your research, really! Also don't accept the first raving story. Look for counter-evidence, and possibly nasty side-effects. They are listed not just for inapt use situations. I noticed my own side-effect with D-Ribose, and I'm rare with that. It makes me slack. I'm a mountainbiker, and race starts at it's importance peak mentally, and then comes down to being mostly a game of endurance. I need to be sharp at the start, and fight for positions. I got slack. Not weak, slack. I was barely breathing, but letting lesser riders pass me when I could have accelerated and take places myself. Luckily I am not a coffee man and (until recently) didn't use much Cola, so I respond well to RedBull imitation beverages. Use one RB15mins before a race, and I'm sharp as I need to be. During an XC race with many super-agressive max efforts hills, I noticed that with D-Ribose, I would climb as fast on the last lap, as on the first. That made a huge difference for me, normally I lose my speed through a race. I was apparently recovering from the relative rest between hills. And on one particular race course, Honselersdijk, known for being super fast with NO recovery and ONLY addtional short hills to sprint up, I noticed the unaltered climbing speed most. So, no recovery needed to recover. Such courses would normally see me shifting down front rings for a 10m tall straight hill. Now, I'd ride it like on the first lap with no traffic in front.

I'll repeat, I've found supplements extremely important when I was faced with realistic top-20 results. Making up spots here means a great difference in performance.

Dope is for the under-educated. The really smart ones are taking legal things, and probably talking to WADA about it to make sure it's OK. Nothing wrong about that, either. Something tells me that caught EPO abusers are not THE most educated riders on supplements. Would they have perfected their supplemental nutricion schemes before resorting to EPO? Ricco? Erwin Bakker? Thomas Dekker? Too young to have really investigated the matter, IMO. I know what some ultra super pro's are buying, to not have to use EPO and have a long happy pro careers without risking a forced premature exit ith bad press.

J

 

[Cloxxki]

I want to warn about caffeine, although it works for me in selected circumstances.

It enhances cramps. And I think it does so especially with wet legs (rain or beach race, or generally being underdressed). And, especially when hitting higher than usual rpm's for a long time. One beach race (I used 400mg in powder, just under the then legal limit), huge tail wind, I was really working my way up to the top-10 of the race. My 44x12 gear was lacking, considering cruising speed was (no bragging) 55kph, all-the-time. I maxed out at 60kph, just before turnaround. Then the cramps came, and I finished like 300th. I do think caffeine was a factor
A- I was like a raging mad man. Orange Rabo pro's everywhere, and I was having them for lunch, every one of them.
B- I was not a singlespeeder yet back then, and was really spinning well
C- Cramps came earlier and stronger than before
Had this race not been out-and-back, but just a race in line, all that was wrong with me was my small gear. God, I wish I could turn back time and mount the road triple on my bike for that one ride.
The way I see it, without caffeine, at worse I would have cramped less, and deeper into the race, making a difference of many minutes. Ridden less alone, and more in groups.

Find out about how something works for you in training, or minor races.

 

[bikenrunnwt]

Beet Juice...

I have come across an interesting study showing improved endurance (~10%) when drinking beet juice.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-08/uoe-bjb080509.php

Now the only problem is you have to drink beet juice!

 

[Cloxxki]

I have come across an interesting study showing improved endurance (~10%) when drinking beet juice.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-08/uoe-bjb080509.php

Now the only problem is you have to drink beet juice!

OK, the word is out, thanks for nothing
Who knows which pro's were already on the track of this as my friend? Would some be pulling ugly faces in the Tour? Switching to the dirty stuff halfway when things didn't go their way?
If their doctors can be the first to have CERA before it's out on the internet, they can sure know about beetroot juice. Many such substances were already popular with traditions such as latin-american indians. Africa has great herbs that really make you faster. Hoodia which I mentioned, is straight-up cactus.
Bootrootjuice is looking really promising. Have yet to find it locally to try it. Should be even better for runners, in my humble logic.

 

[egtalbot]

I want to warn about caffeine, although it works for me in selected circumstances.

It enhances cramps. And I think it does so especially with wet legs (rain or beach race, or generally being underdressed). And, especially when hitting higher than usual rpm's for a long time. One beach race (I used 400mg in powder, just under the then legal limit), huge tail wind, I was really working my way up to the top-10 of the race. My 44x12 gear was lacking, considering cruising speed was (no bragging) 55kph, all-the-time. I maxed out at 60kph, just before turnaround. Then the cramps came, and I finished like 300th. I do think caffeine was a factor

You were going 60kph in a 44x12 and you think the reason you got cramps is the caffeine

Not saying it's not a risk - here's an overview of caffeine and athletes that mentions cramps -http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/caffeine.html

But I think your cadence may have caused the cramps in this case.

Anyway, good thoughts, thanks for starting the thread.

 

[Ex-trackie]

This discussion brings up an ethical question that I absolutely do not claim to have the answer for.

If we say the goal is to go faster, and the tools to acheive that are many. On one end of the spectrum we have, for example CERA/EPO/etc. Bad bad bad!!! On the other end of the spectrum we have effective training (intervals, good nutrition, etc). Of course very good!

In the middle we have a variety of things: dietary supplements, altitude training, etc, etc etc. This is not even including in the discussion the myriad of equipment choices (clearly the lastest lean and mean machine is going to get you to the finish line faster than a two-ton Huffy with the brakes rubbing)

The line drawn in the sand is WADA's list of banned substances. Bad, unethical cheaters on one side; smart savvy, clever athletes on the other side.

Is it really so clear as that?

 

[stephens]

Good question. Another one I'm having trouble with is the idea that putting one's own blood (back) into his body is prohibited.

 

[Cloxxki]

You were going 60kph in a 44x12 and you think the reason you got cramps is the caffeine

Not saying it's not a risk - here's an overview of caffeine and athletes that mentions cramps -http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/caffeine.html

But I think your cadence may have caused the cramps in this case.

Anyway, good thoughts, thanks for starting the thread.

Well, touché! If only I had known in advance of the strong tail storm.
That's the ambivalence I felt afterwards. I was going like a bat at dusk, but the cramps were of another level. The wattage I putting out was pretty modest, due to being limited to my pain threshold. Knowing what I know now, I would have spin-coasted the whole way out as a singlespeeder. After sprinting60 (once, to finaly catch the group in my sights for half an hour, all the rest was 55kph near non-stop), the roll-out was amazing, the speedometer would barely drop back, like a magic speed of some kind.
I know from test results that caffeine can do amazing things to your performance, but I think it's important to have a race that is not too much unlike the average race. Special conditions may not help you.

 

[PACONi]

This discussion brings up an ethical question that I absolutely do not claim to have the answer for.

If we say the goal is to go faster, and the tools to acheive that are many. On one end of the spectrum we have, for example CERA/EPO/etc. Bad bad bad!!! On the other end of the spectrum we have effective training (intervals, good nutrition, etc). Of course very good!

In the middle we have a variety of things: dietary supplements, altitude training, etc, etc etc. This is not even including in the discussion the myriad of equipment choices (clearly the lastest lean and mean machine is going to get you to the finish line faster than a two-ton Huffy with the brakes rubbing)

The line drawn in the sand is WADA's list of banned substances. Bad, unethical cheaters on one side; smart savvy, clever athletes on the other side.

Is it really so clear as that?

Yep its that clear. On the banned list = bad. Everything else = good.

The main reason substances get banned is because they will have a negative affect on the athletes health. Its a misconception that a substance gets banned because it'll make you faster. If that were so then there would be a case for banning training!!

 

[Cloxxki]

Good question. Another one I'm having trouble with is the idea that putting one's own blood (back) into his body is prohibited.

The way I see it, blood transfusion is a medical operation. It requires significant medical training, and sterilized materials. Most humans reach 80 years and never need one transfusion.
Caffeine for instance, is in coca nuts and perhaps other herbs. We could top off just by grabbing some from a tree, sortof.

 

[Ex-trackie]

Yep its that clear. On the banned list = bad. Everything else = good.

The main reason substances get banned is because they will have a negative affect on the athletes health. Its a misconception that a substance gets banned because it'll make you faster. If that were so then there would be a case for banning training!!

Banned:
-Performance enhancing substances/procedures that are health damaging (i.e. EPO and blood transfusions)

Not banned:
-Performance enhancing substances/procedures that are not health damaging (i.e. vitamins B-12 and massage)
-Non-performance enhancing substances/procedures that are not health damaging (i.e. orange juice and haircuts)
-Non-performance enhancing substance/procedures that are health damaging (ie, cigarettes-smoking and leg amputations)

Does that sum it up? So the cheater is the one who is willing to damage his health to go faster?

 

[WD-40.]

Cloxxki, in all honesty I think you are making assumptions about these "additives" when you really don't understand how and if they affect performance at all.

Also it seems that you are heavily influenced by the placebo effect too. Many of the substances you quoted have without doubt no positive effect at all... unless you believe they do.

Not wanting to start an argument but just pointing out the obvious, please keeps facts straight and stick to reality.

Over and out.