Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[TI-Raleigh]

Re: Re:

[quote="

Sorry but I'm realistic actually, Contador is the best climber when he is on form, ending point . Don't see what's hard to understand, he raced the Giro here not the others.

This is a fallacious argument. By saying that on-form Contador is the best, you suggest that it is impossible (or unfair) to draw conclusions from any performance where Contador is not on peak form. Also, if Contador does not show he is the best, you will simply say he is not on top form. It's semantics.

Isn't that quite logical?

Perhaps, but you do not hold other riders to that same standard. For instance, Froome was not on peak form at Vuelta '14, yet you used this race as a clear example of Contador being a better climber. In this year's Giro, as Landa matched or surpassed Contador in the mountains, many people said that you could not draw conclusions because Conti still wasn't at his best.

My point is, very rarely do the stars align to where every rider is on their peak form at the same time. We have to draw careful conclusions with what we are seeing now, rather than write off a performance completely.

 

[Walkman]

Re: Re:

After watching this tour Froome fans must now realise that Contador's Vuelta win was a true result. Froome cannot perform better than that as he showed in this tour.
Bertie was not even 100% at the Vuelta

Neither was Froome... Contador deserved his Vuelta win and Froome deserves his Tour win. Both riders are pretty much equally talented and we have yet to see them both go at eachother at 100% imo.

Equally talented They may be on an equal level but where was Froome's talent before 2011?

Yeha, not like Contador's "talent" which was developed at ONCE and Discovery...

Ouch, the greatest hypocrite is back!

Contador had good results in amateurs even in TTs and was believed to become a great climber and didn't come out of nowhere when he couldn't even pass a climb without hanging on cars

Feel free to point out my hypocrisy. Some quotes would be nice.

"Was believed to become a great climber", yeah, that objectivity. You do know what was going on in ONCE and Discovery at his time there, right? Much like Ulrich, his talent can never be quantified since he most likely got on a program very early.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Perhaps, but you do not hold other riders to that same standard. For instance, Froome was not on peak form at Vuelta '14, yet you used this race as a clear example of Contador being a better climber. In this year's Giro, as Landa matched or surpassed Contador in the mountains, many people said that you could not draw conclusions because Conti still wasn't at his best.

My point is, very rarely do the stars align to where every rider is on their peak form at the same time. We have to draw careful conclusions with what we are seeing now, rather than write off a performance completely.

I don't think I used anything as an example.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

This is true. Ignoring the TT, Landa had a faster cumulative time in the Giro. Say what you will, but it is difficult to make the argument that Contador outclimbed Landa. At most, they were on an equal level.

1- This is hardly the equivalent of blowing the race apart 6 or 7 kilometers from the finish.

2- As an additional point, I would like to comment that we haven't seen that kind of MTF dominance from Contador in a grand tour since 2011. He has shown flashes of brilliance in weeklong stage races, but seems to lack that kind of defining burst as of late. Because of that, it is fair to wonder if Contador can truly be considered the best climber in the world anymore.

1- It's still equivalent to being the best climber in the race.

2- Passo Lanciano (Tirreno 2014), 40 seconds into Quintana in 4 - 5 kms or so.

Alto de Gaintza 2014- 15 seconds into Valverde in 1 km, punchy climb that doesn't even suit him.

Finault Emosson Dauphiné 2014- 20 seconds into Froome in 2 kms.

Côte de Montagny - Dauphiné 2014 - 2 minutes faster than Froome - almost 1 minute faster than the Talansky group upfront.

Hazallanas 2015 - Attacked from 7 k out, beat Froome by 20 sec and the rest by 1.45 min .

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

This is true. Ignoring the TT, Landa had a faster cumulative time in the Giro. Say what you will, but it is difficult to make the argument that Contador outclimbed Landa. At most, they were on an equal level.

1- This is hardly the equivalent of blowing the race apart 6 or 7 kilometers from the finish.

2- As an additional point, I would like to comment that we haven't seen that kind of MTF dominance from Contador in a grand tour since 2011. He has shown flashes of brilliance in weeklong stage races, but seems to lack that kind of defining burst as of late. Because of that, it is fair to wonder if Contador can truly be considered the best climber in the world anymore.

1- It's still equivalent to being the best climber in the race.

2- Passo Lanciano (Tirreno 2014), 40 seconds into Quintana in 4 - 5 kms or so.

Alto de Gaintza 2014- 15 seconds into Valverde in 1 km, punchy climb that doesn't even suit him.

Finault Emosson Dauphiné 2014- 20 seconds into Froome in 2 kms.

Côte de Montagny - Dauphiné 2014 - 2 minutes faster than Froome - almost 1 minute faster than the Talansky group upfront.

Hazallanas 2015 - Attacked from 7 k out, beat Froome by 20 sec and the rest by 1.45 min .

To be fair, regarding the second point he was asking for GT results

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

[quote="

Sorry but I'm realistic actually, Contador is the best climber when he is on form, ending point . Don't see what's hard to understand, he raced the Giro here not the others.

This is a fallacious argument. By saying that on-form Contador is the best, you suggest that it is impossible (or unfair) to draw conclusions from any performance where Contador is not on peak form. Also, if Contador does not show he is the best, you will simply say he is not on top form. It's semantics.

Isn't that quite logical?

Perhaps, but you do not hold other riders to that same standard. For instance, Froome was not on peak form at Vuelta '14, yet you used this race as a clear example of Contador being a better climber.

Froome wasn't at his best, but Contador either. They came in the Vuelta with fairly equal circumstances, Contadr with a worse injury. Still dropped him in almost every single MTF .

 

[TI-Raleigh]

Re: Re:

Perhaps, but you do not hold other riders to that same standard. For instance, Froome was not on peak form at Vuelta '14, yet you used this race as a clear example of Contador being a better climber. In this year's Giro, as Landa matched or surpassed Contador in the mountains, many people said that you could not draw conclusions because Conti still wasn't at his best.

My point is, very rarely do the stars align to where every rider is on their peak form at the same time. We have to draw careful conclusions with what we are seeing now, rather than write off a performance completely.

I don't think I used anything as an example.

I apologize, 'you' was intended to be nonspecific. Some people, perhaps, would be a better word to use.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Perhaps, but you do not hold other riders to that same standard. For instance, Froome was not on peak form at Vuelta '14, yet you used this race as a clear example of Contador being a better climber. In this year's Giro, as Landa matched or surpassed Contador in the mountains, many people said that you could not draw conclusions because Conti still wasn't at his best.

My point is, very rarely do the stars align to where every rider is on their peak form at the same time. We have to draw careful conclusions with what we are seeing now, rather than write off a performance completely.

I don't think I used anything as an example.

I apologize, 'you' was intended to be nonspecific. Some people, perhaps, would be a better word to use.

No worries

 

[TI-Raleigh]

Re: Re:

[quote="

Sorry but I'm realistic actually, Contador is the best climber when he is on form, ending point . Don't see what's hard to understand, he raced the Giro here not the others.

This is a fallacious argument. By saying that on-form Contador is the best, you suggest that it is impossible (or unfair) to draw conclusions from any performance where Contador is not on peak form. Also, if Contador does not show he is the best, you will simply say he is not on top form. It's semantics.

Isn't that quite logical?

Perhaps, but you do not hold other riders to that same standard. For instance, Froome was not on peak form at Vuelta '14, yet you used this race as a clear example of Contador being a better climber.

Froome wasn't at his best, but Contador either. They came in the Vuelta with fairly equal circumstances, Contadr with a worse injury. Still dropped him in almost every single MTF .

I realize that Froome and Conti both lacked ideal preparation. Once again, because of this, we must draw very careful conclusions about the race.

As to whether Contador had a worse injury, I think that is mostly speculation. We do not know how each rider was able to train in the weeks leading up to the race. I wouldn't take Contador's or Froome's words as gospel, as they both want to control their narratives carefully.

In the high mountains of the Vuelta (specifically stages 16 and 20), the race dynamic was very similar. Froome attacked Contador and they both sailed clear of the rest of the field. Froome initiated the attack and pulled most of the way, until Contador jumped with a kilometer to go.

Contador was the better climber, but because of how the big stages played out, I think that the margin that he was better over Froome has been exaggerated.

 

[Matteo.]

I want to see him destroy all competitions just one more time , and not like the Giro.
Hope to see that next year

 

[LaFlorecita]

Discussion from CF thread to be continued here:

Well Froome's crash in that dauphine completely destroyed him, as before that, CF seemed to be better than AC. Meanwhile, AC didn't seemed to be affected as badly with his dislocated shoulder (which he exaggerated anyway - if he was really hurt badly, he would definitely try to hide it).

This is an issue. Whenever Froome is bad, it's very obvious, he loses minutes. But when Contador is bad, he is still up there or thereabouts. So of course he didn't *seem* to be as badly affected.
A dislocated shoulder does put your entire body into recovery mode.

But anyway, there's no way that affected his tour - it was just a result of his fatigue from the giro overall.

I wasn't just talking about that Giro crash in which he dislocated his shoulder, but also about his other crashes. He had 7 crashes this season, 1 bad one in the Giro in which he dislocated his shoulder, and another bad one in Catalunya in which he sustained a micro-fissure in the sacrum. Any crash drains some energy from your body because your body wants to recover, but especially those injuries must have influences his recovery and thus his preparation for the Tour.

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

I think having seen Contador in this Tour considering he had to beat the entire Astana team at the Giro, finishing quite high up and being there or there abouts at the end of stages....It says to me that if he peaks for the Tour next year which he says he will, no one in this race could stay with him save Froome on Stage 10, that's it.

Take it easy. Quintana in the Alps would have followed him without a doubt.

Contador is still a world class rider, but not the best by any means. Let's just wait how the situation is next july.

When he is in top form, he is the best. Just on his 2014 Pais Vasco form, he could've won this Tour.

Next year will be great fun when he'll be back on equal terms.

Even i am realistic about Purito, comparing your expectacions about Berto

Sorry but I'm realistic actually, Contador is the best climber when he is on form, ending point . Don't see what's hard to understand, he raced the Giro here not the others.

Froome beated Contador in the first mountain stage in the Dauphiné in 2014, when they were both in shape. I think the difference between Quintana, Froome and Quintana isn't that big. Sometimes Froome will win, then Quintana, and in some other stages Contador.

He's definitely got a chance next year. But the best climber, ending point? You can't say that really. He surely has got something extra comparing Froome and Quintana in terms of racing and determination. But that's something else.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

To be fair, regarding the second point he was asking for GT results

Well, most likely we would've seen those demonstrations at the Tour 14', but he crashed out. Anyone with a slight bit of common sense would know that given his season .

What I find incredible is that he is still managed to win the Vuelta after that very bad crash, even without a demonstration from 6 - 7 k out, he was still by far the best climber in 2014 .

This year he focused on the double which affected his performances overall, if he only aimed for the Giro, he would've had a much better spring and a better peak for the Giro not worrying for the Tour. Plus he crashed twice, don't forget that.

Same at the Vuelta 12', he came in with basically no prep races in his legs and still won and was up there with the best. Which rider would just come back of a long period with no racing and win a GT immediately?

See, everytime there are bad circumstances for Contador, but he is always up there. Not like Froome who has his moment at the Tour, perfect preperation, no crash and nothing goes bad. And he still fades despite the perfect conditions.

If the stars align perfectly like they did for the Tour 14', for me there's no doubt he is the best climber, not forgetting his consistency as well which Froome doesn't have.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

Froome beated Contador in the first mountain stage in the Dauphiné in 2014, when they were both in shape. I think the difference between Quintana, Froome and Quintana isn't that big. Sometimes Froome will win, then Quintana, and in some other stages Contador.

He's definitely got a chance next year. But the best climber, ending point? You can't say that really. He surely has got something extra comparing Froome and Quintana in terms of racing and determination. But that's something else.

pffft Nairo and Dayer are miles apart

 

[Arredondo]

Re: Re:

Froome beated Contador in the first mountain stage in the Dauphiné in 2014, when they were both in shape. I think the difference between Quintana, Froome and Quintana isn't that big. Sometimes Froome will win, then Quintana, and in some other stages Contador.

He's definitely got a chance next year. But the best climber, ending point? You can't say that really. He surely has got something extra comparing Froome and Quintana in terms of racing and determination. But that's something else.

pffft Nairo and Dayer are miles apart

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

In the high mountains of the Vuelta (specifically stages 16 and 20), the race dynamic was very similar. Froome attacked Contador and they both sailed clear of the rest of the field. Froome initiated the attack and pulled most of the way, until Contador jumped with a kilometer to go.

Contador was the better climber, but because of how the big stages played out, I think that the margin that he was better over Froome has been exaggerated.

The thing is, on top of stage 16 and 20, Contador also dropped him in first and second week. It's not exaggerated, he was much better.

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

Froome beated Contador in the first mountain stage in the Dauphiné in 2014, when they were both in shape. I think the difference between Quintana, Froome and Quintana isn't that big. Sometimes Froome will win, then Quintana, and in some other stages Contador.

As I've always said, Froome will always have the edge at the Dauphiné since he races Romandie while Contador takes a huge break of 8 weeks.

But still Froome got crushed later on, why is everyone mentioning his crash? If he completely collapses once something goes bad then it's his problem.

I don't see as many people mentioning Contador's 2 crashes and dislocated shoulder at the Giro being the reason why he didn't outclimb Landa. No, they prefer to say that he lied about it and that it was nothing.
Double standards once again.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Froome beated Contador in the first mountain stage in the Dauphiné in 2014, when they were both in shape. I think the difference between Quintana, Froome and Quintana isn't that big. Sometimes Froome will win, then Quintana, and in some other stages Contador.

As I've always said, Froome will always have the edge at the Dauphiné since he races Romandie while Contador takes a huge break of 8 weeks.

But still Froome got crushed later on, why is everyone mentioning his crash? If he completely collapses once something goes bad then it's his problem.

I don't see as many people mentioning Contador's 2 crashes and dislocated shoulder at the Giro being the reason why he didn't outclimb Landa. No, they prefer to say that he lied about it and that it was nothing.
Double standards once again.

This is a good point.

 

[Miburo]

I'll see you guys in february

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

I'll see you guys in february

Will he do Ruta del Sol or Algarve? My guess is Algarve
2014 all over again - Algarve, Tirreno, Catalunya, Paisco, Dauphiné

Edit: he could join José Antonio Gonzalez as record holder in Pais Vasco and how great would it be if he could win either Catalunya or Dauphiné or both

 

[Walkman]

Re: Re:

[quote="

Sorry but I'm realistic actually, Contador is the best climber when he is on form, ending point . Don't see what's hard to understand, he raced the Giro here not the others.

This is a fallacious argument. By saying that on-form Contador is the best, you suggest that it is impossible (or unfair) to draw conclusions from any performance where Contador is not on peak form. Also, if Contador does not show he is the best, you will simply say he is not on top form. It's semantics.

Isn't that quite logical?

Perhaps, but you do not hold other riders to that same standard. For instance, Froome was not on peak form at Vuelta '14, yet you used this race as a clear example of Contador being a better climber.

Froome wasn't at his best, but Contador either. They came in the Vuelta with fairly equal circumstances, Contadr with a worse injury. Still dropped him in almost every single MTF .

Uhm…no.

Maybe watch the race next time?

Edit:

And how about those quote showing how much of a hypocrite I am?

 

[Miburo]

And no worries fleur, we'll see this guy again in the tour.

 

[Miburo]

Does this look like the face of mercy?

 

[BlurryVII]

Re: Re:

Uhm…no.

Maybe watch the race next time?

Maybe you too? Valdenieares - San miguel de Aralar - lagos de Covadonga - La Farrapona - Ancares.

Not on every MTF, hence the 'Almost'. Learn to read.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

I hope we'll see Contador at his best versus Froome and Quintana are their best next year. Go Alberto!