Teams & Riders Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

[IMA]

[quote="
Ok, so even if we work on the ridiculous premise that TTTs don't count; there was one GC finish before he crashed. He lost 30 seconds in 2km to Froome and Valverde, and slightly less to Quintana.

He's been poor from the start of the race; I guess the crash makes yet another nice excuse though.

So a team time trial performance is a reflection of one individual rider's form at the time? Now that is a ridiculous premise.

Agreed. Good job no-one has claimed that.

hahaha

So what are you playing at?

Just basically trolling? Trying to irritate some people here?

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

So, he wasted his last good year attempting the double. Glimpses of regret may have already come.

Since when is a Giro win a wasted year?

To most riders it isn't. But in 2015 I seriously doubt his dream goal was to win the Giro. He wanted to win the Tour. Hence, by his own standards, he probably wasted his last opportunity of winning the Tour. He won't win it next year, unless something mythical happens.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Its annoying to hear the same excuses over and over and over again, LF. I had expected something else from you on a day as this. Disappointing.

What?
Don't you agree he looked in way better shape in his spring campaign? Don't you agree the crashes probably played a role in his disappointing performance?
Of course, he might have gone through the most abrupt physical decline in history, but that seems unlikely.

Wouldn't be that abrupt. The decline already started at the end of 2014. Surely you're not going to claim that he was anywhere near his 2014 shape in the Giro last year

He was in great shape in spring. Obviously not as strong as in his best days, but not that far off either:
Record on Malhão; only 17 seconds slower on Col d'Eze than in 2007, 16 seconds slower than Porte in 2013's TT - after attacking with 50km to go; super fast on Arrate; super fast on Mont Chery

http://www.climbing-records.com/2016/03/contador-and-porte-go-hard-on-col-deze.html
http://www.climbing-records.com/2016/04/alberto-contador-back-to-verbier-level.html
http://www.climbing-records.com/2016/06/contador-blitzes-mont-chery-prologue.html

 

[jilbiker]

Anyone looked at his face in the races? he is tired and its a mental fatigue that shows on his face. He does not have the power in the legs that he once had, he himself admits that, crash or no crash. But his riding style demands that he has that power in the legs, he cannot ride the Froome pace-yourself style and be the effective dynamo he was. Its a sad feeling for a champion, his guns are gone. It makes him nervous hence the number of crashes we have seen.

Perhaps its the pressure of some fans who seem to feel he can still fly (and I mean fly like a real plane) that makes him not pack up. We cannot compare him to Federer who is still hanging around, you can do that in tennis which is a stop start game, how do you do that in cycling 5hrs of non-stop high speed biking ending up on a punishing 18% gradient mountain and sometimes 3 days in a row and for 3 weeks? Some sports are just more high intensity and there is no cruising around, either you suffer and come say top 5 or you pack it in. For Bertie, if he is going to suffer, it had better be for 1st.

 

[Valv.Piti]

One week races is a different ballgame than GT's, you know that. People actually 100% peak for GT's, 1 week races, not so much. I don't think he was particularly impressive in either race apart from Pais Vasco and one of Contador's biggest strengths is consistency in 1 week races , but it doesn't necessarily translate to top-end level in GT's.

But he was back on his bike. He didn't look great, but that wasn't to be expected either. He had plenty of time to improve from Burgos to Vuelta - he did, but not by much, admittedly. He lost 30 seconds on Ezaro - you will probably explain that by dehydration, but, man, I don't buy that. Too many god damn excuses. Getting slightly annoyed.

Does it matter of Lars Michaelsen is DS or not? I assumed he was. He onboard with the team and said specifically what I said, I even posted it in the race-thread. He is 100% which explained why they believed so much in him. Has Contador deceived them in order to try to duke it out for the stage even if he wasn't? Of course not.

I don't think I am rude or offensive and I think I have posted incredibly balanced on Contador lately. I hope you can admit that. But this is over the line, so to quote you, there is really no use arguing with you. Its the same thing every time.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Thing is, after that amazing performance on Mont Chery, Froome and Porte were certainly stronger than Contador, and you could argue that Dan Martin Yates and Bardet were at a similar level to Contador as well.

Fwiw, I still think Contador is one of the big three, but if he wants to win another GT, he needs to avoid turning up to the same GT as Froome and Quintana or rely on Nibali-esque luck

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

Anyone looked at his face in the races? he is tired and its a mental fatigue that shows on his face. He does not have the power in the legs that he once had, he himself admits that, crash or no crash. But his riding style demands that he has that power in the legs, he cannot ride the Froome pace-yourself style and be the effective dynamo he was. Its a sad feeling for a champion, his guns are gone. It makes him nervous hence the number of crashes we have seen.

Are you his psychologist?

 

[bambino]

Re:

Well, having a solid spring build up cannot warrant you flying uphill in grand tours. That just indicates what expects you in a 3 week marathon, there's no direct correlation though... Not to mention that at the age of 33 bertie can't recover after crashes like he did in 2011 sadly.

Yeah, and even in the late spring, i.e. in Dauphine he wasn't that great anymore. He did win 4km prologue, but dropped by Froome (and couple others) in longer climbs.

The genuine feeling for past 2 years I have is that he still has the power to push really hard short attacks, but anything beyond 5-6km with fast pacing from other teams is killing his legs over and over again.

I don't remember seeing long range constant blasting climbing from him since Dauphine 2014.

 

[Angliru]

Never been a fan but this is pretty ridiculous. He crashed. Just look at the Dauphine 2014 to se what a crash can do to a rider. Froome went from thermonuclear to a top-10 rider (at the Dauphine) over night.

When he was already well over a minute down to the other main contenders.

There was a TTT...

So you can start by subtracting the time he lost there and then come back if you want a relevant discussion.

Ok, so even if we work on the ridiculous premise that TTTs don't count; there was one GC finish before he crashed. He lost 30 seconds in 2km to Froome and Valverde, and slightly less to Quintana.

He's been poor from the start of the race; I guess the crash makes yet another nice excuse though.

They count if, in this particular discussion, you are going to specifically measure Contador's individual contribution in that stage and compare it to his rivals' in the gc. Otherwise it really has only the percentage of Contador's time spent in the wind. But you knew that didn't you? Didn't you? :surprised:

 

[boasson]

Re: Re:

Its annoying to hear the same excuses over and over and over again, LF. I had expected something else from you on a day as this. Disappointing.

What?
Don't you agree he looked in way better shape in his spring campaign? Don't you agree the crashes probably played a role in his disappointing performance?
Of course, he might have gone through the most abrupt physical decline in history, but that seems unlikely.

Wouldn't be that abrupt. The decline already started at the end of 2014. Surely you're not going to claim that he was anywhere near his 2014 shape in the Giro last year

He was in great shape in spring. Obviously not as strong as in his best days, but not that far off either:
Record on Malhão; only 17 seconds slower on Col d'Eze than in 2007, 16 seconds slower than Porte in 2013's TT - after attacking with 50km to go; super fast on Arrate; super fast on Mont Chery

http://www.climbing-records.com/2016/03/contador-and-porte-go-hard-on-col-deze.html
http://www.climbing-records.com/2016/04/alberto-contador-back-to-verbier-level.html
http://www.climbing-records.com/2016/06/contador-blitzes-mont-chery-prologue.html

Well, Geraint Thomas had a brilliant spring to. Won Algarve - against Contador. Won Paris-Nice - against Contador. So how was Geraint Thomas in the Grand Tours this year? It says nothing.

Contador has his good level the whole year. Like Valverde. But its not enough anymore for outstanding guys like Froome and Quintana. It was enough to beat Andy, Evans, Scarponi or Leipheimer. But not these two with their superb teams. It's enough to fight against Aru at the Giro, against Bardet for a podium spot at the Dauphine or against Valverde and Chaves at the Vuelta. But its not enough to fight against Froome and Quintana. Thats pretty simple.

 

[Sciocco]

Re: Re:

Contador will win this vuelta, next year's tour, and 2018 giro-vuelta double before WCRR. In 2019 he races all three GTs as a parade of mountain attacks.

So you weren't serious all along

What?

This is what I want to happen and what I believe can happen.

Why not believe in Contador?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

I don't think I am rude or offensive and I think I have posted incredibly balanced on Contador lately. I hope you can admit that. But this is over the line, so to quote you, there is really no use arguing with you. Its the same thing every time.

Am I just supposed to accept you saying things about me that are 100% false?

He was in a better situation than Quintana and Froome, but they are simply just superior at this point. There is nothing more to do. Please, do accept that and stop denying reality. Even miburo has done that at this point. You haven't for some reason. As I've said, I expected more from you. Alternate reality is a great defence mechanism, but it doesn't make it anymore right

From day 3 I said he doesn't have it. But apparently it is "denying reality" when I say his crashes may have had something to do with his lack of form?

Okay. Fine. Have it your way:

Froome and Quintana and Valverde are so much better than Contador. His crashes have clearly had no effect whatsoever, even without crashes and in his best shape possible he would still be a loser who would be no match for any of those three heroes.

So, am I now exempt from your criticism?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Contador will win this vuelta, next year's tour, and 2018 giro-vuelta double before WCRR. In 2019 he races all three GTs as a parade of mountain attacks.

So you weren't serious all along

What?
This is what I want to happen and what I believe can happen.

Why not believe in Contador?

It's a bit hard to believe you actually believe that. Which made me think you weren't serious about any of the things you posted before regarding Contador's chances in this race.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Well, Geraint Thomas had a brilliant spring to. Won Algarve - against Contador. Won Paris-Nice - against Contador. So how was Geraint Thomas in the Grand Tours this year? It says nothing.

Well, historically Contador is at least a thousand times the GT rider Thomas is. That makes it a bit different, I'd think.

 

[Valv.Piti]

You said his crashes have had a huge impact - I don't see any evidence that points towards that (quickly back on his bike, lost huge times on Ezaro before the Vuelta-crash, people close to him claiming he is 100% and TInkoff going all out today) and thats why I say you are delusional. I guess its only natural when someone is THAT big of a fan of someone (never actually seen someone that engaged in any person before, not even close).

 

[PremierAndrew]

Come on you can't deny that the crash would have had an effect. He was very poor on Ezaro and should have been a lot better, yes. Also, he should have been able to stay with Froome and Nairo today, especially after a rest day. I'm sceptical as to whether Contador would have been in a similar position to those two at this point without his crash. But, he wouldn't have been 3 minutes down, probably closer to 2.

Then again, a lot of Contador supporters weren't being particularly objective about Froome's crashes back in 2014, so going by the same standards...

 

[Moviestar]

Re: Re:

Its annoying to hear the same excuses over and over and over again, LF. I had expected something else from you on a day as this. Disappointing.

What?
Don't you agree he looked in way better shape in his spring campaign? Don't you agree the crashes probably played a role in his disappointing performance?
Of course, he might have gone through the most abrupt physical decline in history, but that seems unlikely.

Contador himself doesn't say a word about the influence of the crashes, he even talks about winning, so he must be feeling quite well in a physical and mental way.
http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/Vuelta/1.2756170

The only thing is that Quintana and Froome are stronger than him at the moment and that's not for the first time in a recent GT.

 

[lenric]

If he's really going to ride in next year's Tour, I'm curious to know if he'll make it into top-5. If he can't be better than this (note that he'll be almost 35 in July's 2017), I doubt he can beat Richie Porte (if neither of them crashes again) or Yates.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Contador himself doesn't say a word about the influence of the crashes, he even talks about winning, so he must be feeling quite well in a physical and mental way.
http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/Vuelta/1.2756170

The only thing is that Quintana and Froome are stronger than him at the moment and that's not for the first time in a recent GT.

Of course he talks about winning. That is his only goal. He has no other objectives, never has, never will.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

You said his crashes have had a huge impact - I don't see any evidence that points towards that (quickly back on his bike, lost huge times on Ezaro before the Vuelta-crash, people close to him claiming he is 100% and TInkoff going all out today) and thats why I say you are delusional. I guess its only natural when someone is THAT big of a fan of someone (never actually seen someone that engaged in any person before, not even close).

I said "as Walkman said, that [crashes] can have a huge impact".

 

[Sciocco]

Re: Re:

Contador will win this vuelta, next year's tour, and 2018 giro-vuelta double before WCRR. In 2019 he races all three GTs as a parade of mountain attacks.

So you weren't serious all along

What?
This is what I want to happen and what I believe can happen.

Why not believe in Contador?

It's a bit hard to believe you actually believe that. Which made me think you weren't serious about any of the things you posted before regarding Contador's chances in this race.

It's hard to believe that Contador is going to try and win this GT and the next few GTs he races? Maybe the WCRR is a stretch but it's been repeatedly stated on this forum that it's going to be unbelievably difficult and if he somehow wins, wouldn't he race 2019 in the rainbow jersey?

***, I'd be cool with him just racing some more VPV as that's my favorite short stage race.

 

[Amnes2015]

Never been a fan but this is pretty ridiculous. He crashed. Just look at the Dauphine 2014 to se what a crash can do to a rider. Froome went from thermonuclear to a top-10 rider (at the Dauphine) over night.

this x1000

and remember Froome at 2014 TdF he wasn't brilliant in the first 4 stages, very shaky, Dauphine crash messed with his form the next 3 weeks

like wise Contador crashing in TdF killed some of his form and affecting his preparation for Vuelta, crashing again in Vuelta... and still near the podium, that's some good showing imo.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

It's hard to believe that Contador is going to try and win this GT and the next few GTs he races? Maybe the WCRR is a stretch but it's been repeatedly stated on this forum that it's going to be unbelievably difficult and if he somehow wins, wouldn't he race 2019 in the rainbow jersey?

****, I'd be cool with him just racing some more VPV as that's my favorite short stage race.

Lol of course he'll try but you said he will win As for the WC, he'll be almost 36

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Never been a fan but this is pretty ridiculous. He crashed. Just look at the Dauphine 2014 to se what a crash can do to a rider. Froome went from thermonuclear to a top-10 rider (at the Dauphine) over night.

this x1000

and remember Froome at 2014 TdF he wasn't brilliant in the first 4 stages, very shaky, Dauphine crash messed with his form the next 3 weeks

like wise Contador crashing in TdF killed some of his form and affecting his preparation for Vuelta, crashing again in Vuelta... and still near the podium, that's some good showing imo.

Or Vino 07. Going from being the greatest cyclist of any generation to just the worlds greatest tter due to a crash

 

[burning]

Never been a fan but this is pretty ridiculous. He crashed. Just look at the Dauphine 2014 to se what a crash can do to a rider. Froome went from thermonuclear to a top-10 rider (at the Dauphine) over night.

this x1000

and remember Froome at 2014 TdF he wasn't brilliant in the first 4 stages, very shaky, Dauphine crash messed with his form the next 3 weeks

like wise Contador crashing in TdF killed some of his form and affecting his preparation for Vuelta, crashing again in Vuelta... and still near the podium, that's some good showing imo.

Or Vino 07. Going from being the greatest cyclist of any generation to just the worlds greatest tter due to a crash

Then he went from the worlds greatest tter to a crappy climber to the worlds best climber.