All About Salbutamol

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What will the verdict in Froome's salbutamol case?

  • He will be cleared

    Votes: 43 34.1%
  • 3 month ban

    Votes: 4 3.2%
  • 6 month ban

    Votes: 15 11.9%
  • 9 month ban

    Votes: 24 19.0%
  • 1 year ban

    Votes: 16 12.7%
  • 2 year ban

    Votes: 21 16.7%
  • 4 year ban

    Votes: 3 2.4%

  • Total voters
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May 24, 2013
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Re:

Bronstein said:
'L'Equipe reporting that Chris Froome's defence exploring whether his kidneys could have "malfunctioned", storing up salbutamol only to release a large quantity for the anti-doping test.'

https://twitter.com/inrng/status/953128018775609344

https://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Article/La-defense-risquee-de-christopher-froome-apres-son-controle-anormal-au-salbutamol/867155

Hmm... why would they try to explore such remote avenues unless the test in Lausanne has already failed?

Kidney malfunction might be pretty difficult to prove and replicate.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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As Bambino says, when they’re reduced to shots in the dark like this, we know for sure they don’t expect to pass the lab test. The problem with this approach is the same with just about every other idea that could be thrown out there: if Froome has a pathological condition that caused the high salbutamol level, why did it only appear on one stage? He could have developed the condition before stage 18, conceivably, but then why didn’t he have a high level on succeeding stages? No doubt his team would argue this is just a contributory factor, along with puffing more than usual, but if it really is, the levels after stage 18 should at least be quite a bit higher than those before.

And there’s another problem. The premise of the argument, at least as phrased on the twitter feed (I couldn’t access the entire L’Equipe article) is that Froome took an allowed amount of salbutamol, but a much larger than normal portion of it went into the urine sample that he provided. His level of 2000 ng/ml, or 2 ug/ml, corresponds to 500 ug in a typical 250 ml sample of urine. That puts an approximate floor on how much salbutamol he took, depending on exactly how large his urine sample was, and because of additional factors (WADA apparently does not assay the sulfated form of salbutamol, so what they report is an underestimate; and not all of any drug is ever excreted in the urine in any short period of time, there's always some that basically just hangs around in the body), the amount he took would be even higher. He’s basically reduced to arguing that he took all or most of the maximum allowed amount of 800 ug in the previous twelve hours (if he wants to go back another twelve hours for another 800 ug, that should have affected his test on stage 17, unless his condition very fortuitiously began right about at the end of that stage), and that virtually all of it ended up in a single urine sample. I don’t know much about the effects of kidney diseases on drug excretion, but this sounds like a very hard sell to me.
 
Jan 15, 2013
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Re: Re:

bambino said:
Bronstein said:
'L'Equipe reporting that Chris Froome's defence exploring whether his kidneys could have "malfunctioned", storing up salbutamol only to release a large quantity for the anti-doping test.'

https://twitter.com/inrng/status/953128018775609344

https://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Article/La-defense-risquee-de-christopher-froome-apres-son-controle-anormal-au-salbutamol/867155

Hmm... why would they try to explore such remote avenues unless the test in Lausanne has already failed?

Kidney malfunction might be pretty difficult to prove and replicate.

Yeah I think they would have got a lot further if they could create doubt and demonstrate flaws in the test itself (e.g. if they could show that other foods or drugs taken could alter test results, or that the relationship between ingested and excreted doses was variable or nonlinear) rather than having to prove Froome has actual alien kidneys (or even better, did on that day, just not all the other days he was tested on).
 
Re:

Bronstein said:
'L'Equipe reporting that Chris Froome's defence exploring whether his kidneys could have "malfunctioned", storing up salbutamol only to release a large quantity for the anti-doping test.'

https://twitter.com/inrng/status/953128018775609344

https://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Article/La-defense-risquee-de-christopher-froome-apres-son-controle-anormal-au-salbutamol/867155
How does he plan on proving this? Why has this only occurred once despite him using that puffer on the regular? How can a kidney- and asthma-patient win a grand tour? Why did it take so long to come up with this clarification?
 
Jul 5, 2012
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Re: Re:

vedrafjord said:
...rather than having to prove Froome has actual alien kidneys (or even better, did on that day, just not all the other days he was tested on).

soooo....Dawg was abducted by OTHER aliens :eek: the night after stage 17, who then conducted despicable scientific experiments on him whilst hypnotised with Mozart playing gently, soft pillows and beetroot juice, and after inseriting their new alien DNA and organs they popped him back into the hotel bed sans original crazy adaptive alien kidneys just in time for a breakfast of champions :cool:

The new aliens don't have hayfever or asthma in their quadrant of the galaxy, so no sal required

Yup, twittersphere, ATO, UCI and CAS will buy that no problemo ;)
 

thehog

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Re: Re:

DNP-Old said:
Bronstein said:
'L'Equipe reporting that Chris Froome's defence exploring whether his kidneys could have "malfunctioned", storing up salbutamol only to release a large quantity for the anti-doping test.'

https://twitter.com/inrng/status/953128018775609344

https://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Article/La-defense-risquee-de-christopher-froome-apres-son-controle-anormal-au-salbutamol/867155
How does he plan on proving this? Why has this only occurred once despite him using that puffer on the regular? How can a kidney- and asthma-patient win a grand tour? Why did it take so long to come up with this clarification?


Brailsford really has hung him out to dry. Not an altitude natives study to be seen anywhere. Gone are he days of a quick phone call and postive disappeared. I also feel sympathetic for Froome.
 
Oct 6, 2009
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Re: Re:

DNP-Old said:
Bronstein said:
'L'Equipe reporting that Chris Froome's defence exploring whether his kidneys could have "malfunctioned", storing up salbutamol only to release a large quantity for the anti-doping test.'

https://twitter.com/inrng/status/953128018775609344

https://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Article/La-defense-risquee-de-christopher-froome-apres-son-controle-anormal-au-salbutamol/867155
How does he plan on proving this? Why has this only occurred once despite him using that puffer on the regular? How can a kidney- and asthma-patient win a grand tour? Why did it take so long to come up with this clarification?

This. This stuff makes cycling look ridiculous. We already had Froome with Typhoid, Badzhilla, etc, etc. which was unbelievable. Now this "defense" will run in the general press where non-cycling fans see it and the sport becomes even more of a joke to Joe Public.

Reminds me of when that story came out a few years ago about how the testers could wake guys up in the middle of the night for testing 24/7, and it played out on the general news media as "these cyclists are such big dopers they even have to test them at 3AM and still can't get them to stop using drugs."

UCI needs to get a handle on Froome ASAP. Just pop him for something else, automatic suspension, two offenses, and get him out of the sport. Spend your money fighting it like a fool, or be smart and retire with the money and do something else.
 
May 11, 2013
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
DNP-Old said:
Bronstein said:
'L'Equipe reporting that Chris Froome's defence exploring whether his kidneys could have "malfunctioned", storing up salbutamol only to release a large quantity for the anti-doping test.'

https://twitter.com/inrng/status/953128018775609344

https://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Article/La-defense-risquee-de-christopher-froome-apres-son-controle-anormal-au-salbutamol/867155
How does he plan on proving this? Why has this only occurred once despite him using that puffer on the regular? How can a kidney- and asthma-patient win a grand tour? Why did it take so long to come up with this clarification?


Brailsford really has hung him out to dry. Not an altitude natives study to be seen anywhere. Gone are he days of a quick phone call and postive disappeared. I also feel sympathetic for Froome.

2 years holiday if the kidneys are still working.
 
Oct 6, 2009
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Re:

bigcog said:


This part of that article seems to affirm MI and Bambino's points above:

Having discounted the dehydration hypothesis initially suggested as a possible cause for a spike in the salbutamol concentration and decided against a pharmacokinetic option that might have shown that external factors were the cause because of the difficulty of recreating the same conditions of that day, Froome’s team of experts are said to be focusing on this new hypothesis.

Last ditch effort?
 

thehog

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G for the Tour?

What L’Equipe describes as Froome’s “double or quits” defence could lead to the British rider receiving a two-year ban, his sacking by Sky and, potentially, given that he is 33, the end of his career.
 
Mar 7, 2017
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Re: Re:

Beech Mtn said:
bigcog said:


This part of that article seems to affirm MI and Bambino's points above:

Having discounted the dehydration hypothesis initially suggested as a possible cause for a spike in the salbutamol concentration and decided against a pharmacokinetic option that might have shown that external factors were the cause because of the difficulty of recreating the same conditions of that day, Froome’s team of experts are said to be focusing on this new hypothesis.

Last ditch effort?

Yup, *** or bust - the Dawg either skates or gets 2yrs

Also from the CW article:

'L’Equipe says that Froome and Sky – who deny exceeding the permitted dosages for salbutamol – have yet to pass their dossier containing their defence to the scientific experts at the UCI’s Legal Anti-Doping Services (LADS), but that the LADS has already brought in its own kidney specialist with this in mind. The key for Froome is that if the LADS is satisfied that the explanation put forward by his team of experts are valid then the rider will be cleared and his victory in the Vuelta will be confirmed. However, the World Anti-Doping Agency and UK Anti-Doping Agency could then challenge this decision at the Court for Arbitration of Sport.

If, on the other hand, Froome’s experts can’t satisfy the LADS, he will have to accept the sanction imposed. As the British rider has not admitted surpassing the permitted levels by mistake, as was the case with Diego Ulissi in 2014 – the Italian receiving a reduced nine-month ban as a result – the sanction imposed would likely be two years. If Froome refuses to accept the sanction, the case will pass to the UCI’s anti-doping tribunal and could then continue to the CAS.

What L’Equipe describes as Froome’s “double or quits” defence could lead to the British rider receiving a two-year ban, his sacking by Sky and, potentially, given that he is 33, the end of his career.

His lawyer, Mike Morgan, specialises in cases such as this. Morgan has represented Alberto Contador, Lizzie Deignan, Johan Bruyneel, tennis player Maria Sharapova, and footballers Kolo Touré and Mamadou Sakho with various degrees of success. As one of Morgan’s peers points out to L’Équipe, though, “whatever the quality of the lawyer involved, they can only win winnable cases.” '
 
Jul 9, 2012
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thehog said:
G for the Tour?

What L’Equipe describes as Froome’s “double or quits” defence could lead to the British rider receiving a two-year ban, his sacking by Sky and, potentially, given that he is 33, the end of his career.

Of course, a true Brit ;)
 
Mar 7, 2017
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bigcog said:
thehog said:
G for the Tour?

What L’Equipe describes as Froome’s “double or quits” defence could lead to the British rider receiving a two-year ban, his sacking by Sky and, potentially, given that he is 33, the end of his career.

Of course, a true Brit ;)

Sorry to disappoint - G has been asked to donate a kidney to an ailing team mate
 

thehog

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bigcog said:
thehog said:
G for the Tour?

What L’Equipe describes as Froome’s “double or quits” defence could lead to the British rider receiving a two-year ban, his sacking by Sky and, potentially, given that he is 33, the end of his career.

Of course, a true Brit ;)

Contador was 29 when he was as suspended, Froome at 33 could spell the end of his career. Probably get sacked by Sky. Only Tinkoff could save him with a new team :cool:
 
Oct 6, 2009
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thehog said:
Contador was 29 when he was as suspended, Froome at 33 could spell the end of his career. Probably get sacked by Sky. Only Tinkoff could save him with a new team :cool:

Dude. Last Chance Saloon with his good friend Vino.


On topic: Wonder what kind of other drugs cause this 24hr kidney malfunction?
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Re:

bigcog said:
I still think he's gaming the whole thing. Show in the lab that given a legal dose he goes past 1200 in some circumstances and then this part is the hand-waving and poking at uncertainties, which might convince *someone* that 2000 was possible without doping.

It's absurd though. In what way could he have impaired renal function and not have all of his urine samples for the week be obviously strange? Proteins, sugars, and salbutamol, oh my!

John Swanson
 

thehog

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Jul 27, 2009
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ScienceIsCool said:
bigcog said:
I still think he's gaming the whole thing. Show in the lab that given a legal dose he goes past 1200 in some circumstances and then this part is the hand-waving and poking at uncertainties, which might convince *someone* that 2000 was possible without doping.

It's absurd though. In what way could he have impaired renal function and not have all of his urine samples for the week be obviously strange? Proteins, sugars, and salbutamol, oh my!

John Swanson

You know they are going to present the Badzhila defense with a malfunctioning kidney, they just have too!
 
Jul 27, 2010
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John is probably right about the gaming, but let's play along here. What kind of evidence could support Froome’s claim? There are tests for kidney function, but not for after the fact. His claim seems to be he had acute kidney malfunction, but that the kidneys returned to normal by stage 18. So tests for kidney function on him now are unlikely to help.

So what could help? His urine samples prior to stage 18 now become extremely important. If his kidneys were not excreting substances properly—let’s say his kidney malfunction occurred during part or maybe all of the Vuelta—then his salbutamol levels for these earlier stages should have been really low, probably < 100 or even 50 ng/ml. If they were much lower than his levels after stage 18, and perhaps also lower than at other times in his career, say, at the TDF, that would be suggestive. But how good these levels would be as evidence would depend on how much salbutamol Froome was taking then, and of course he can’t prove how much he was taking. Unless there was a really sharp drop-off—say, from 300-600 ng/ml to < 100 ng/ml—this evidence would not be compelling. And there’s no reason to think his kidney malfunction would occur suddenly, unless it was triggered by some event, such as acute dehydration. I guess that’s possible.

So they would probably also look at other substances in the urine, such as creatinine. But this is complicated, too, because during the intense exercise of a GT, his creatinine blood levels will be much higher than at rest, and this will affect urine levels even if the kidney is not fully efficient. I would think even in a rider with normal functioning kidneys there would be huge variations in creatinine in the urine during a GT, and these variations will tend to obscure any consistent effect that kidney malfunction might have. They might want to compare creatinine levels in his Vuelta samples with those in earlier samples, e.g., from the TDF, to try to establish some kind of baseline.

But this is not the way one normally looks for kidney problems. One would want to measure serum creatinine levels, and urinary levels I think are only used if urine can be collected over a set period of time, not just in one sample given at the end of a stage. So Froome will not only be trying to prove that he had kidney problems after-the-fact, but with limited samples available. He might have given a blood sample during the Vuelta, which could be helpful, but one sample in isolation would be of limited value.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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Re: Re:

Wiggo's Package said:
snipped...

Also from the CW article:

'L’Equipe says that Froome and Sky – who deny exceeding the permitted dosages for salbutamol – have yet to pass their dossier containing their defence to the scientific experts at the UCI’s Legal Anti-Doping Services (LADS), but that the LADS has already brought in its own kidney specialist with this in mind.
Sky still haven't patched up that leak ? ... The L'Equipe source (presumably the same source that leaked the +ve test result) not only appears to know what defense Team Froome is planning to run but is also happy to pass that on to UCI so that they can get a head start on countering it :p
 
Feb 16, 2010
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I love the way the journalistic spoils are being spread around by the whistle-blower.
It makes it all appear much more like one of those joint efforts like Paradise Papers.
:)
 

rick james

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Re: Re:

Wiggo's Package said:
Robert5091 said:
Wiggo's Package said:
How do you know when Froome hired Morgan? Musta missed that link!

I would expect in September after Sky knew.

David Walsh has said that Sky are not funding Froome's defence because Froome didn't back the team and Brailsfraud last year over the Wiggo's jiffybag debacle

So if Froome is funding his own defence that might have led to a delay in him getting lawyered up. Especially if he was expecting the problem to go away

But realistically, even if Brailsfraud is hanging Froome out to dry on the legal fees, surely he would have still told Froome to hire Morgan, the best doping case lawyer in the business, PDQ

If true and Dawg proves this abnormal reading was wrong Shirley he won't ride for Sky again
 
Feb 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

ClassicomanoLuigi said:
Wiggo's Package said:
'L’Equipe says that Froome and Sky – who deny exceeding the permitted dosages for salbutamol – have yet to pass their dossier containing their defence to the scientific experts at the UCI’s Legal Anti-Doping Services (LADS), but that the LADS has already brought in its own kidney specialist with this in mind.'

The whole salbutamol thread takes an unexpected detour into the nephrology journals...

Here's a scenario:

Froome's blood ravaged by bilharzia, his body emaciated, and lungs choked by asthma... he went into sudden kidney failure in stage 17 of the Vuelta, and in this state of emergency, had to take an extra puff on the inhaler

Treatment of hyperkalaemia in renal failure with salbutamol inhalation
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2384735

Anyway, everything pertaining to renal function is probably what is coming up, based on the sound of these legal rumors
In the United States, hyperkalemia [1] is induced by lethal injection in capital punishment cases.
:eek:

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperkalemia#Society_and_culture
 
Jul 9, 2012
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
ScienceIsCool said:
bigcog said:
I still think he's gaming the whole thing. Show in the lab that given a legal dose he goes past 1200 in some circumstances and then this part is the hand-waving and poking at uncertainties, which might convince *someone* that 2000 was possible without doping.

It's absurd though. In what way could he have impaired renal function and not have all of his urine samples for the week be obviously strange? Proteins, sugars, and salbutamol, oh my!

John Swanson

You know they are going to present the Badzhila defense with a malfunctioning kidney, they just have too!

Do you mean something like this ? :D

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4027257/
 

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