All About Salbutamol

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What will the verdict in Froome's salbutamol case?

  • He will be cleared

    Votes: 43 34.1%
  • 3 month ban

    Votes: 4 3.2%
  • 6 month ban

    Votes: 15 11.9%
  • 9 month ban

    Votes: 24 19.0%
  • 1 year ban

    Votes: 16 12.7%
  • 2 year ban

    Votes: 21 16.7%
  • 4 year ban

    Votes: 3 2.4%

  • Total voters
    126
Dec 27, 2012
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Re: Re:

Robert5091 said:
Alpe73 said:
Robert5091 said:
25% think he will be cleared - says a lot! :)

Details ..... please. Thanks.

The poll at like ... the top of the page. (see it's only 23 % now)

Have seen that ... I mean ... you said ... "It says a lot." Please clarify/give some details of what it says ... what you think this (number) means .....

Thanks in advance.
 
Apr 23, 2016
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Re: Re:

....just thought of something. What if Sky is letting this drag out long enough for someone to get dirt on Lappartient?
 
Jul 27, 2010
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Based on DB's recent comments about how the rules govern how much you inhale, not the amount in the urine, Tucker thinks Froome's team is going to try to discredit the whole notion of the current threshold and DL. Still looks to me, though, that that's only one approach, along with the kidneys or DDI. For that matter, why would Brailsford know what Froome's strategy was? Anyway, if they haven't settled on one approach, or if the one they have settled on is to try to argue that the urine limits shouldn't apply, then they really have no case at all. This is just Petacchi with a higher level and more money to defend it.

they’ll roll out a line of evidence that argues that 2000 ng [not mg, Ross]/ml in the urine is not valid in elite sport people, and also discredit the studies in which that upper limit is based. Pull enough threads and eventually the system unravels. That kind of thing.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/964477133488828416/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fsportsscientists.com%2F
 
Mar 7, 2017
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Merckx index said:
Based on DB's recent comments about how the rules govern how much you inhale, not the amount in the urine, Tucker thinks Froome's team is going to try to discredit the whole notion of the current threshold and DL. Still looks to me, though, that that's only one approach, along with the kidneys or DDI. For that matter, why would Brailsford know what Froome's strategy was? Anyway, if they haven't settled on one approach, or if the one they have settled on is to try to argue that the urine limits shouldn't apply, then they really have no case at all. This is just Petacchi with a higher level and more money to defend it.

they’ll roll out a line of evidence that argues that 2000 ng [not mg, Ross]/ml in the urine is not valid in elite sport people, and also discredit the studies in which that upper limit is based. Pull enough threads and eventually the system unravels. That kind of thing.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/964477133488828416/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fsportsscientists.com%2F

Given the different ways Mike Morgan has won doping cases for his clients he will almost certainly be taking a multi-limbed "in the alternative" approach at this stage. Throw mud at the wall and hope something sticks. Only stop pulling at any specific thread if/when the tribunal has categorically dismissed it

For example Morgan got Armitstead off on a procedural technicality (the tester didn't try hard enough to find her) likewise Impey (contamination by pharmacist). So he will be challenging the tester's procedures when taking Froome's sample, each step of the chain of custody, the procedures in the lab, etc

And Morgan got footballer Mamdou Sahko off by successfully claiming that the fat burning drug in Sahko's sample should not have been on WADA's banned list. That would be analogous with Tucker's suggestion that Froome's team is going to challenge the the current salbutamol threshold. If your athlete has broken a rule and you can get that rule taken off the books that is a result

Scroll down here for more of Morgan's success stories (and a defence of Justin Gatlin!). He doesn't seem to have a specific MO, he gets his athletes off any which way:

http://www.morgansl.com/news-centre
 
Dec 27, 2012
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Wiggo's Package said:
Merckx index said:
Based on DB's recent comments about how the rules govern how much you inhale, not the amount in the urine, Tucker thinks Froome's team is going to try to discredit the whole notion of the current threshold and DL. Still looks to me, though, that that's only one approach, along with the kidneys or DDI. For that matter, why would Brailsford know what Froome's strategy was? Anyway, if they haven't settled on one approach, or if the one they have settled on is to try to argue that the urine limits shouldn't apply, then they really have no case at all. This is just Petacchi with a higher level and more money to defend it.

they’ll roll out a line of evidence that argues that 2000 ng [not mg, Ross]/ml in the urine is not valid in elite sport people, and also discredit the studies in which that upper limit is based. Pull enough threads and eventually the system unravels. That kind of thing.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/964477133488828416/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fsportsscientists.com%2F

Given the different ways Mike Morgan has won doping cases for his clients he will almost certainly be taking a multi-limbed "in the alternative" approach at this stage. Throw mud at the wall and hope something sticks. Only stop pulling at any specific thread if/when the tribunal has categorically dismissed it

For example Morgan got Armitstead off on a procedural technicality (the tester didn't try hard enough to find her) likewise Impey (contamination by pharmacist). So he will be challenging the tester's procedures when taking Froome's sample, each step of the chain of custody, the procedures in the lab, etc

And Morgan got footballer Mamdou Sahko off by successfully claiming that the fat burning drug in Sahko's sample should not have been on WADA's banned list. That would be analogous with Tucker's suggestion that Froome's team is going to challenge the the current salbutamol threshold. If your athlete has broken a rule and you can get that rule taken off the books that is a result

Scroll down here for more of Morgan's success stories (and a defence of Justin Gatlin!). He doesn't seem to have a specific MO, he gets his athletes off any which way:

http://www.morgansl.com/news-centre

Ahhh ... the oft maligned, perpetually misunderstood and always mouthed in the pejorative ... "procedural technicality."

Please, WP ... what is your point in this full run down?

Is this a hedging of (your) bets ... should Froome be exonterated or given only a 'lite' sanction. An early calling of foul justice?
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Alpe73 said:
Wiggo's Package said:
Merckx index said:
Based on DB's recent comments about how the rules govern how much you inhale, not the amount in the urine, Tucker thinks Froome's team is going to try to discredit the whole notion of the current threshold and DL. Still looks to me, though, that that's only one approach, along with the kidneys or DDI. For that matter, why would Brailsford know what Froome's strategy was? Anyway, if they haven't settled on one approach, or if the one they have settled on is to try to argue that the urine limits shouldn't apply, then they really have no case at all. This is just Petacchi with a higher level and more money to defend it.

they’ll roll out a line of evidence that argues that 2000 ng [not mg, Ross]/ml in the urine is not valid in elite sport people, and also discredit the studies in which that upper limit is based. Pull enough threads and eventually the system unravels. That kind of thing.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/964477133488828416/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fsportsscientists.com%2F

Given the different ways Mike Morgan has won doping cases for his clients he will almost certainly be taking a multi-limbed "in the alternative" approach at this stage. Throw mud at the wall and hope something sticks. Only stop pulling at any specific thread if/when the tribunal has categorically dismissed it

For example Morgan got Armitstead off on a procedural technicality (the tester didn't try hard enough to find her) likewise Impey (contamination by pharmacist). So he will be challenging the tester's procedures when taking Froome's sample, each step of the chain of custody, the procedures in the lab, etc

And Morgan got footballer Mamdou Sahko off by successfully claiming that the fat burning drug in Sahko's sample should not have been on WADA's banned list. That would be analogous with Tucker's suggestion that Froome's team is going to challenge the the current salbutamol threshold. If your athlete has broken a rule and you can get that rule taken off the books that is a result

Scroll down here for more of Morgan's success stories (and a defence of Justin Gatlin!). He doesn't seem to have a specific MO, he gets his athletes off any which way:

http://www.morgansl.com/news-centre

Ahhh ... the oft maligned, perpetually misunderstood and always mouthed in the pejorative ... "procedural technicality."

Please, WP ... what is your point in this full run down?

Is this a hedging of (your) bets ... should Froome be exonterated or given only a 'lite' sanction. An early calling of foul justice?

Capone went down for tax avoidance...had he been exonerated (on tax) we would have all still known he was a gangster (who also avoided tax)..

With full transparency on the Froome case we can all form our own judgement, whether he is sanctioned or otherwise

knowing the biog of all the actors only adds to understanding...it doesn't detract

of course current lead man is "the cyclist formerly known as crap" ;)
 
Feb 16, 2010
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Well for a balanced judgment we ought to have a list of Morgan's failures
Anyone of you able to get hold of that un-promoted list?
;)
 
Feb 5, 2018
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Merckx index said:
Based on DB's recent comments about how the rules govern how much you inhale, not the amount in the urine, Tucker thinks Froome's team is going to try to discredit the whole notion of the current threshold and DL. Still looks to me, though, that that's only one approach, along with the kidneys or DDI. For that matter, why would Brailsford know what Froome's strategy was? Anyway, if they haven't settled on one approach, or if the one they have settled on is to try to argue that the urine limits shouldn't apply, then they really have no case at all. This is just Petacchi with a higher level and more money to defend it.

they’ll roll out a line of evidence that argues that 2000 ng [not mg, Ross]/ml in the urine is not valid in elite sport people, and also discredit the studies in which that upper limit is based. Pull enough threads and eventually the system unravels. That kind of thing.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/964477133488828416/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fsportsscientists.com%2F


christ i hope not!! surely the current threshold and DL has a good enough grounding in the science and physioplogy of professional sportspeople though that this tactic is doomed? ; the Threshold and DL is set slightly elevated so that if an athlete exceeds this then it is unlikely to be accidental , eg the athlete took 3-4 extra puffs of an inhaler; the limits for all drugs must surely be are set maybe 10% higher than the values that normal therapeutic use would result in; in order to give a margin for error and individual variability (athlete or test).
It would be a major failure and embarassment for the sports authorities if sky was able to present and prove a case that the salb limit should be 2200ng for example!! and in that scenario, would other riders, that failed the prior DL and received sanctions be eligible for compensation and/or reinstatement for results achieved ; it would be a total clusterf&ck mess.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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Alpe73 said:
Is this a hedging of (your) bets ... should Froome be exonterated or given only a 'lite' sanction. An early calling of foul justice?

WP can speak for himself, but It’s not so much believing that Froome will get off on a technicality as believing that the only slim chance he has of getting off is on a technicality. Though we’ve heard very little reliable reporting about his team’s strategy, it definitely sounds as though they do not have a reasonable explanation that would easily convince anyone. E.g., examples of reasonable explanations would be a very high USG or successfully reproducing the high urinary level in a lab test. Absent something like that, they have to try long-shot theories, as well as look for technical loopholes.

Wiggo's Package said:
Scroll down here for more of Morgan's success stories (and a defence of Justin Gatlin!). He doesn't seem to have a specific MO, he gets his athletes off any which way:

http://www.morgansl.com/news-centre

Not all those cases listed at his site were clear-cut wins. He got Sharapova’s ban reduced from the original two years, but she still had to serve fifteen months. Tyson Fury was out of action for two years.

One of his most interesting cases was rugby player Patrick Tuipuloto. He tested positive for a specified substance—what it was was not reported AFAIK, but it may very well have been salbutamol—but the B sample came back negative. What makes this case potentially very interesting is that the B sample was not tested, or at least its test was not reported, until about two and a half months after the A sample test. During this period, Tuipuloto was in effect suspended, but his team did not say it was for drugs. They said he had been sent home for personal reasons. So there was a long period in which he wasn’t playing, and wasn’t publicly known to have tested positive, then suddenly the positive was announced, followed just three days later by an announcement that the B sample was negative.

The long time gap, along with his team in effect lying about why he wasn’t playing, is obviously suspicious. (Interestingly, his A test was in effect covered up for about the same length of time that Froome’s test remained secret). It would make no sense for someone with an A positive to wait that long to have the B tested. Is it possible that the B test initially confirmed the A, then Morgan, newly hired by Tuipuloto, somehow got a retest which found it negative? Weird.

Yet if there was some effort to cover up the test, it was very strange that the B sample negative was not announced until after the A sample announcement; had they waited a few days, it seems, they wouldn't have had to make any announcement at all. But maybe a leak of the A test was about to occur, and the Rugby Association felt they had to get ahead of the story.

Since it seems to have been a threshold substance, it would be possible that the A sample was barely above the DL, while the B was just below; in that case, there would be no lab error, just a typical test variation. That is the kind of window in which I would expect Morgan to be able to work his magic. However, most reports said the discrepancy was very mysterious, with some stories claiming that there was no substance at all detected in the B sample, a “one in ten thousand” occurrence. Supposedly WADA launched an investigation into it, but AFAIK, nothing came of it.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/all-black-lock-patrick-tuipulotu-cleared-of-doping-after-b-sample-tests-negative-20170209-gu99uu.html
 
Mar 7, 2017
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Alpe73 said:
Wiggo's Package said:
Merckx index said:
Based on DB's recent comments about how the rules govern how much you inhale, not the amount in the urine, Tucker thinks Froome's team is going to try to discredit the whole notion of the current threshold and DL. Still looks to me, though, that that's only one approach, along with the kidneys or DDI. For that matter, why would Brailsford know what Froome's strategy was? Anyway, if they haven't settled on one approach, or if the one they have settled on is to try to argue that the urine limits shouldn't apply, then they really have no case at all. This is just Petacchi with a higher level and more money to defend it.

they’ll roll out a line of evidence that argues that 2000 ng [not mg, Ross]/ml in the urine is not valid in elite sport people, and also discredit the studies in which that upper limit is based. Pull enough threads and eventually the system unravels. That kind of thing.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/964477133488828416/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fsportsscientists.com%2F

Given the different ways Mike Morgan has won doping cases for his clients he will almost certainly be taking a multi-limbed "in the alternative" approach at this stage. Throw mud at the wall and hope something sticks. Only stop pulling at any specific thread if/when the tribunal has categorically dismissed it

For example Morgan got Armitstead off on a procedural technicality (the tester didn't try hard enough to find her) likewise Impey (contamination by pharmacist). So he will be challenging the tester's procedures when taking Froome's sample, each step of the chain of custody, the procedures in the lab, etc

And Morgan got footballer Mamdou Sahko off by successfully claiming that the fat burning drug in Sahko's sample should not have been on WADA's banned list. That would be analogous with Tucker's suggestion that Froome's team is going to challenge the the current salbutamol threshold. If your athlete has broken a rule and you can get that rule taken off the books that is a result

Scroll down here for more of Morgan's success stories (and a defence of Justin Gatlin!). He doesn't seem to have a specific MO, he gets his athletes off any which way:

http://www.morgansl.com/news-centre

Ahhh ... the oft maligned, perpetually misunderstood and always mouthed in the pejorative ... "procedural technicality."

Please, WP ... what is your point in this full run down?

Is this a hedging of (your) bets ... should Froome be exonterated or given only a 'lite' sanction. An early calling of foul justice?

My point is that there are many ways a lawyer can get their client off a charge

Sometimes all the evidence is heard in open court and a client is found not guilty - the wheels of justice have turned, people should be able to accept that, fair enough

Other times one part of the evidence is struck out on a procedural technicality and the prosecution's case falls apart as a result - this is what happened in the Armitstead case, she was very lucky to have the first of her three missed whereabouts tests struck out on the appeal to CAS - and interested parties might have misgivings about these types of cases even though technically justice has been served

Morgan won't care how he gets Froome off, if he does, as long as it happens. But if Froome skates full transparent reasons as to why will almost certainly not make it into the public domain. And Froome/Sky's press releases will be the usual smug insufferable misinformation!
 
Mar 7, 2017
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Merckx index said:
Alpe73 said:
Is this a hedging of (your) bets ... should Froome be exonterated or given only a 'lite' sanction. An early calling of foul justice?

WP can speak for himself, but It’s not so much believing that Froome will get off on a technicality as believing that the only slim chance he has of getting off is on a technicality. Though we’ve heard very little reliable reporting about his team’s strategy, it definitely sounds as though they do not have a reasonable explanation that would easily convince anyone. E.g., examples of reasonable explanations would be a very high USG or successfully reproducing the high urinary level in a lab test. Absent something like that, they have to try long-shot theories, as well as look for technical loopholes.

Wiggo's Package said:
Scroll down here for more of Morgan's success stories (and a defence of Justin Gatlin!). He doesn't seem to have a specific MO, he gets his athletes off any which way:

http://www.morgansl.com/news-centre

Not all those cases listed at his site were clear-cut wins. He got Sharapova’s ban reduced from the original two years, but she still had to serve fifteen months. Tyson Fury was out of action for two years.

One of his most interesting cases was rugby player Patrick Tuipuloto. He tested positive for a specified substance—what it was was not reported AFAIK, but it may very well have been salbutamol—but the B sample came back negative. What makes this case potentially very interesting is that the B sample was not tested, or at least its test was not reported, until about two and a half months after the A sample test. During this period, Tuipuloto was in effect suspended, but his team did not say it was for drugs. They said he had been sent home for personal reasons. So there was a long period in which he wasn’t playing, and wasn’t publicly known to have tested positive, then suddenly the positive was announced, followed just three days later by an announcement that the B sample was negative.

The long time gap, along with his team in effect lying about why he wasn’t playing, is obviously suspicious. (Interestingly, his A test was in effect covered up for about the same length of time that Froome’s test remained secret). It would make no sense for someone with an A positive to wait that long to have the B tested. Is it possible that the B test initially confirmed the A, then Morgan, newly hired by Tuipuloto, somehow got a retest which found it negative? Weird.

Yet if there was some effort to cover up the test, it was very strange that the B sample negative was not announced until after the A sample announcement; had they waited a few days, it seems, they wouldn't have had to make any announcement at all. But maybe a leak of the A test was about to occur, and the Rugby Association felt they had to get ahead of the story.

Since it seems to have been a threshold substance, it would be possible that the A sample was barely above the DL, while the B was just below; in that case, there would be no lab error, just a typical test variation. That is the kind of window in which I would expect Morgan to be able to work his magic. However, most reports said the discrepancy was very mysterious, with some stories claiming that there was no substance at all detected in the B sample, a “one in ten thousand” occurrence. Supposedly WADA launched an investigation into it, but AFAIK, nothing came of it.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/all-black-lock-patrick-tuipulotu-cleared-of-doping-after-b-sample-tests-negative-20170209-gu99uu.html

On the bolded bit - agreed

Sharapova from all her self pitying pouting feels hard done by she had a ban at all. But for Morgan even a reduced ban is a victory compared to the 2 years Sharapova should have got

And if at the end of the Froome case some kind of fudge is agreed and he serves, for example, a 9 or 12 month ban, Morgan will view that as a victory and will stick it on his website, even though the Dawg will view it as a defeat
 
Jun 20, 2015
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Merckx index said:
Based on DB's recent comments about how the rules govern how much you inhale, not the amount in the urine, Tucker thinks Froome's team is going to try to discredit the whole notion of the current threshold and DL. Still looks to me, though, that that's only one approach, along with the kidneys or DDI. For that matter, why would Brailsford know what Froome's strategy was? Anyway, if they haven't settled on one approach, or if the one they have settled on is to try to argue that the urine limits shouldn't apply, then they really have no case at all. This is just Petacchi with a higher level and more money to defend it.

they’ll roll out a line of evidence that argues that 2000 ng [not mg, Ross]/ml in the urine is not valid in elite sport people, and also discredit the studies in which that upper limit is based. Pull enough threads and eventually the system unravels. That kind of thing.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/964477133488828416/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fsportsscientists.com%2F

This is the never-ending battle between scientists and lawyers - Scientists set parameters and limits based on facts, hypothesis and tests, while the lawyers job is to tear apart the science - Will add that Tucker has become cynical, possibly too cynical in his views, though at the same time a scientist will protect their patch of turf.
 
Jun 20, 2015
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Re:

TourOfSardinia said:
Well for a balanced judgment we ought to have a list of Morgan's failures
Anyone of you able to get hold of that un-promoted list?
;)

Morgan and his sometime partner in crime Howard Jacob's speciality are getting reduced sentences for athletes who have tested positive - Of course the athlete must agree not to fight the positive.
 
Dec 27, 2012
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Wiggo's Package said:
Alpe73 said:
Wiggo's Package said:
Merckx index said:
Based on DB's recent comments about how the rules govern how much you inhale, not the amount in the urine, Tucker thinks Froome's team is going to try to discredit the whole notion of the current threshold and DL. Still looks to me, though, that that's only one approach, along with the kidneys or DDI. For that matter, why would Brailsford know what Froome's strategy was? Anyway, if they haven't settled on one approach, or if the one they have settled on is to try to argue that the urine limits shouldn't apply, then they really have no case at all. This is just Petacchi with a higher level and more money to defend it.

they’ll roll out a line of evidence that argues that 2000 ng [not mg, Ross]/ml in the urine is not valid in elite sport people, and also discredit the studies in which that upper limit is based. Pull enough threads and eventually the system unravels. That kind of thing.

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/964477133488828416/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fsportsscientists.com%2F

Given the different ways Mike Morgan has won doping cases for his clients he will almost certainly be taking a multi-limbed "in the alternative" approach at this stage. Throw mud at the wall and hope something sticks. Only stop pulling at any specific thread if/when the tribunal has categorically dismissed it

For example Morgan got Armitstead off on a procedural technicality (the tester didn't try hard enough to find her) likewise Impey (contamination by pharmacist). So he will be challenging the tester's procedures when taking Froome's sample, each step of the chain of custody, the procedures in the lab, etc

And Morgan got footballer Mamdou Sahko off by successfully claiming that the fat burning drug in Sahko's sample should not have been on WADA's banned list. That would be analogous with Tucker's suggestion that Froome's team is going to challenge the the current salbutamol threshold. If your athlete has broken a rule and you can get that rule taken off the books that is a result

Scroll down here for more of Morgan's success stories (and a defence of Justin Gatlin!). He doesn't seem to have a specific MO, he gets his athletes off any which way:

http://www.morgansl.com/news-centre

Ahhh ... the oft maligned, perpetually misunderstood and always mouthed in the pejorative ... "procedural technicality."

Please, WP ... what is your point in this full run down?

Is this a hedging of (your) bets ... should Froome be exonterated or given only a 'lite' sanction. An early calling of foul justice?

My point is that there are many ways a lawyer can get their client off a charge

Sometimes all the evidence is heard in open court and a client is found not guilty - the wheels of justice have turned, people should be able to accept that, fair enough

Other times one part of the evidence is struck out on a procedural technicality and the prosecution's case falls apart as a result - this is what happened in the Armitstead case, she was very lucky to have the first of her three missed whereabouts tests struck out on the appeal to CAS - and interested parties might have misgivings about these types of cases even though technically justice has been served

Morgan won't care how he gets Froome off, if he does, as long as it happens. But if Froome skates full transparent reasons as to why will almost certainly not make it into the public domain. And Froome/Sky's press releases will be the usual smug insufferable misinformation!

All decent, clear points, WP.
1. Yep
2. Yep
3. That may not please The Clinic ... but it is very normal, very standard procedure. Moreover, the half life of not knowing anything, anytime, any place, any how ... is quite short for most people ... including most cycling fans.
4. Smugness ... to what degree is it projected? To what degree is it perceived? Can't help you there.
5. Misinformation? Don't let the misinformation that may be perpetrated here .... cloud your shyte ... in regards to what may be perpetrated there.

I'm not trying to be flippant, smug, ... anything I say on here is just my 2 cents worth. Call it banter in the dissenting opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. Peace, bro.
 
Mar 29, 2016
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I'm still waiting for "Froome's sample was tampered with by a xenophobic anti-Froome official" (a.k.a. The "Mark Fuhrman" defense)
 
Jul 27, 2010
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From the Results Management, Hearings and Decisions Guidelines (p. 12):

Irrespective of the type of ADRV involved, any anti-doping organization (ADO) should be able to conclude the Results Management and hearing process within a maximum of six months of the date of the commission or discovery of the ADRV.

A footnote adds “For an ADRV resulting from an AAF, the date of commission is the date of the Sample Collection Session."

For Froome, that would mean early March, a couple of weeks from now. So assuming the Tribunal has begun, and he’s given fifteen days to submit his defense, the hearing would take place after about the recommended maximum length of time. Indeed, maybe WADA urged the parties to take it to CADF so that the hearing would be held within the six months period.

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/wada_guidelines_results_management_hearings_decisions_2014_v1.0_en.pdf

Also, for anyone who still disputes this, an AAF is a positive:

An analytical ADRV refers to a violation of Code Article 2.1 (above) and is based on an adverse analytical finding (otherwise known as a positive result)

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/adrvs_report_qa_web.pdf

A key piece of information in the Froome case may be the results of the enantiomers test. While there has been no direct confirmation that Froome’s sample was submitted to this analysis, I regard it as virtually a foregone conclusion that it has been. As I’ve pointed out before, this test does not actually reliably distinguish between all inhaled and oral doses; the actual study on which the test is based only compared maximum allowed inhaled doses with much larger oral doses. Nevertheless, several previous cases indicate that the results are likely to be a key to the ruling.

In his article on beta2-agonists in the Olympics, Ken Fitch discussed two cases in which athletes tested over the limit, one in which the urine concentration was 1270 ng/ml, and another in which it was about 1650-1750 in the two samples. In both cases, the S/R ratio was relatively low, about 2.5 in the first case, and less than 2.0 in the second. The athlete in the first case got off. The athlete in the second case was initially given a two year ban, but on appeal it was reduced to three months.

Now contrast that with Petacchi’s case, in which the positive test was about 1350 ng/ml. The S/R value was not published, but Fitch, who was serving as a scientific expert for Petacchi, “did, however, admit that the enantiomer test results were still ‘a problem’ for Mr.Petacchi and ‘very difficult to answer’ and that he thought Mr. Petacchi must accidentally have swallowed some of his medicine.” If Petacchi’s own scientific advisor conceded that the enantiomer test result was a problem, we can be sure it was quite high, in the range usually associated with oral dosing. This was probably a major reason why Petacchi, though not far over the DL (and under the new rules taking into account USG, would have been exonerated) received a significant ban. Also significant in this CAS ruling is the recognition that one can’t tell how much salbutamol an athlete may have swallowed, an uncertainty that in effect allowed Petacchi to avoid a much longer ban that could have been applied if the panel concluded that he intentionally orally dosed.

So Froome’s S/R ratio is likely to be very important. If it’s below 3, it will be accepted, at a minimum, that he definitely did not orally dose, so that even if the judge concludes that he took more than the maximum, s/he will probably rule that it was a case of accidentally inhaling too much (or possibly, intentionally doing so because of a severe asthma attack). And a low ratio would also improve his chances of getting off completely, based on precedent. If his ratio is fairly high, OTOH, it will be very difficult for him to avoid some ban, and he may have to fall back on the Petacchi defense, arguing that he accidentally swallowed a relatively large amount of the dose.

My guess is that Froome's sample has a fairly low S/R ratio. I believe this because it seems to me only a low ratio would keep him in the game, given his very high urine level. If he has a high ratio, then combined with the 2000 ng/ml level, he would be virtually certain to get a ban, and while of course he would still dispute it, my guess is that LADS would have sent the Acceptance of Consequences letter sooner.

If he has a low ratio, then Morgan no doubt will be arguing strenuously on the basis of precedent. Also, recall Tucker's musings that Morgan aims to attack the DL, arguing that it's possible for a rider to exceed it without inhaling more than the allowed amount. To make that argument, at a very minimum, Froome has to have a S/R ratio compatible with inhaling. If his ratio is very high, he can't make that case at all.

In this situation, I can imagine something of a stalemate, in which LADS says that Froome still has to have a ban, while Morgan says absolutely not, and eventually, when it's clear no mutual agreement is possible, WADA steps in and says, take it to the judge.

My two cents.
 
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ClassicomanoLuigi said:
Merckx index said:
My guess is that Froome's sample has a fairly low S/R ratio. I believe this because it seems to me only a low ratio would keep him in the game, given his very high urine level. If he has a high ratio, then combined with the 2000 ng/ml level, he would be virtually certain to get a ban, and while of course he would still dispute it, my guess is that LADS would have sent the Acceptance of Consequences letter sooner.
Possibly, but a guess based on the possible reasons behind the timing of events. Froome and his lawyers don't know what the S/R ratio was in his samples, or even whether an enantiomer test was performed... unless they were confronted by LADS with the threat of using such evidence, during the 'bargaining' period.

My guess is: Froome has no case with ADT, no matter what he contends... and therefore he gets banned for two years if he doesn't admit fault, or for 1 to 2 years if he has already flip-flopped on his public posturing, and has admitted responsibility.

Lappartient clearly expected Froome will get banned, and furthermore that Froome will appeal the ban to CAS.
Froome's lawyers have a much better case to get his ban reduced in duration at CAS than to be exonerated by ADT.
In the results of the CN 'salbutamol poll' the most popular choices are '2 Years' or '9 Months', actually both of those figures could turn out to be correct with a ban reduced to 9 months based on the precedent of past salbutamol cases.

Or CAS could just concur with ADT judgment and uphold the original ban. Would take some creativity by Froome's lawyers the second time around to overcome the logic of the ADT

Do I recall rigth, that Froome only hired Morgan somewhere on December, after the matter came public? I.e. almost 3 months after notified the AAF? I've always had a thought that something in the proceeding happened at that time which made Froome to call the famous "ban reducer". Was it simply because it became public while prior he thought the matter would be handled and washed away by SDB, or could it be i.e. that his test results for S/R came back unfavorable?
 
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Some interesting figures on salbutamol. In 2006, there were 391 AAFs for this drug. The following year there were only 60, and in the following two years there were very roughly the same number. In 2010, when the rules changed, allowing up to 1000 ng/ml without a TUE, the number of AAFs dropped again, to only 9. That number has remained roughly constant since then, though in 2015 there were 16, and in 2016 15. There have been some differences in which groups are recorded, but I don’t think they would account for these major changes.

This decrease in AAFs has been paralleled by a decrease in reported cases, at least in cycling. AFAIK, only two cyclists have been sanctioned for salbutamol since 2010--actually, since 2008: Ulissi and Pliuschin. In contrast, at least nine riders received a sanction of some sort for salbutamol from 2006-08: Garbelli, Trentin, Girschweiler, Petacchi, Soeperberg, Noailles, Olesek, Berthou and Poljanski, and at least three other riders were known to have AAFs during this period: Clain, Pereiro and Piepoli.

During the latter period (2009-2016), there have been an even one hundred salbutamol AAFs (all sports). The number of AAFs for salbutamol just for cyclists is not available, but based on other numbers, it's probably roughly 10% of the total, or one or two per year. In any of these hypothetical cases other than Ulissi or Pliuschin, the rider probably had a TUE. It's possible a rider may have been exonerated by successfully arguing no fault or negligence, but AFAIK, we have no confirmation of any such cases.

Another way to approach this is to note that through the years 2013-15, there was a total of 270 AAFs in road cycling, for all substances. During this same period, only 14 of these AAFs resulted in no sanction (not including TUEs and no case to answer), so this is the maximum number of salbutamol cases that might have been exonerated through a successful defense based on no fault or negligence. But it's likely that most if not all of these were for other substances, particularly clenbuterol. As an example of an AAF that might be exonerated, WADA specifically mentions meat contamination, and there are far more AAFs for clenbuterol than salbutamol in recent years (more than twenty times as many in 2013-15) In fact, as pointed out in an old Clinic thread, in 2014, FIFA reported 18 clenbuterol AAFs. None resulted in a sanction, though 14 were officially classified as no case to answer.

So I think there are very few if any riders in recent years who had an AAF for salbutamol, were not suspended, and went on to be exonerated without this being publicly known.
 
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Does that add up though taking into account the number of TUEs issued by UCI

TUE granted
2013 31
2014 25
2015 13
Total 69


So 270 AAFs in Cycling 2013 to 2015 and 69 TUEs granted by UCI, which leaves a theoretical 201 AAFs to answer.

If as you claim 14 of these 270 AAFs resulted in no sanction between 2013-2015 due to rider having a TUE assumption, they don't seem to reflect UCI's TUEs granted as 55 TUEs (AAFs with a TUE) remain as AAFs in WADAs figures?

I might be wrong, but I thought WADA's AAF figures explained away by TUEs are only the backdated TUEs. If the rider has an existing TUE running when he gives the sample, he would be stating that on his form with the sample for the lab, so it wouldn't AAF and the lab won't be looking for that substance. I think that's how it works anyway.
 
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Re:

samhocking said:
Does that add up though taking into account the number of TUEs issued by UCI

TUE granted
2013 31
2014 25
2015 13
Total 69


So 270 AAFs in Cycling 2013 to 2015 and 69 TUEs granted by UCI, which leaves a theoretical 201 AAFs to answer.

If as you claim 14 of these 270 AAFs resulted in no sanction between 2013-2015 due to rider having a TUE assumption, they don't seem to reflect UCI's TUEs granted as 55 TUEs (AAFs with a TUE) remain as AAFs in WADAs figures?

I might be wrong, but I thought WADA's AAF figures explained away by TUEs are only the backdated TUEs. If the rider has an existing TUE running when he gives the sample, he would be stating that on his form with the sample for the lab, so it wouldn't AAF and the lab won't be looking for that substance. I think that's how it works anyway.

Incorrect.

The lab reports the AAF. They literally don't know if who the person is, or if they have any TUEs. Just a code #

The requesting doping agency checks for a TUE.

If there is a TUE and it checks out, the AAF goes no further. If there is no TUE, then it can get kicked up to a ADRV


And it is entirely possible for a single TUE to result in multiple AAFs going no further.

Say if a race leader took a dose of oral steroids with a TUE, and then was tested every day for the rest of the race.
 
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I know they don't know the name of the athlete who's sample they are analysing, but are you sure that's right? The athlete actually returns an AAF from the lab every single time he gives a urine/blood sample back to the NADO or NGB if he has a TUE? So when Wiggins had his TUE and was tested for Corticosteroids as yellow jersey holder, UCI were sent 20-odd AAFs during his Tour de France? I'm sure in the rules it was backdated only or TUE's in process would trigger an AAF. Seems awfully reliant on the NGB if not anonymously resolved at LAB, WADA & ADAMS step to me?
The TUE guidances on AAF figures only says:

"these figures may contain findings that underwent the Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) approval process"

Depends how you read that, but I would't have chosen 'may, underwent, approval or process' to explain AAFs will contain all approved TUEs?
 
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UKAD runs through the results management in simple language steps (the WADA code is rather unfriendly language for the process)

https://www.ukad.org.uk/our-organisation/what-we-do/results-management/

Quoting the AAF portion:

Upon receipt of an A-sample Adverse Analytical Finding, UKAD will determine whether:

a TUE has been granted
there has been a departure from the International Standard for Testing and Investigations or International Standard for Laboratories that may have caused the Adverse Analytical Finding.

If the review does not reveal a TUE or departure that caused the Adverse Analytical Finding, then UKAD will report the outcome to the athlete.
 
Mar 13, 2013
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Who to believe then? WADA says AAF figures 'may contain findings that underwent the Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) approval process', UKAD appears to say they will contain TUEs that underwent the Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) approval process? Maybe WADA's wording is simply suggesting not all sports AAFs will necessarily have a single TUE within them, so use the word may perhaps? Really not very clear.
 
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samhocking said:
Does that add up though taking into account the number of TUEs issued by UCI

TUE granted
2013 31
2014 25
2015 13
Total 69

I assume the numbers you are quoting are the individual TUEs granted to riders, which may be for one day or for an extended period of time. The WADA reports list TUEs that come in the process of managing AAFs. There were a total of 38 for road cycling, and 93 for all cycling, during that three year period. One would expect that many riders contribute multiple TUEs, corresponding to every time someone with a TUE is tested for that substance.

If as you claim 14 of these 270 AAFs resulted in no sanction between 2013-2015 due to rider having a TUE assumption, they don't seem to reflect UCI's TUEs granted as 55 TUEs (AAFs with a TUE) remain as AAFs in WADAs figures?

No, I guess I wasn’t clear enough. The 14 cases are those that are classified as no sanction (NS). This is a distinct grouping from TUEs and NCAs (no case to answer). The TUE and NCA cases are generally recognized very early in the process, whereas no sanction refers to cases where the athlete has to challenge the AAF, and eventually is cleared. ADRVs are calculated as AAFs – TUE - NCA - NS - P (pending cases). I think this is consistent with what you quoted about AAFs including TUEs.

I might be wrong, but I thought WADA's AAF figures explained away by TUEs are only the backdated TUEs. If the rider has an existing TUE running when he gives the sample, he would be stating that on his form with the sample for the lab, so it wouldn't AAF and the lab won't be looking for that substance. I think that's how it works anyway.

I don’t think so. My understanding, as Cat explained, is that when a sample is initially analyzed at the lab, there is nothing to identify it, including no TUE. This is presumably why the number of salbutamol AAFs dropped dramatically, about 70%, from 2009 to 2010. In 2009, a TUE was needed to take any salbutamol at all. In 2010, the rules were changed to allow up to 1000 ng/ml urine levels without a TUE. This means all tests less than this level--or actually the DL of 1200 I guess--are not classified as AAFs, whereas the year before they would have been.

I know they don't know the name of the athlete who's sample they are analysing, but are you sure that's right? The athlete actually returns an AAF from the lab every single time he gives a urine/blood sample back to the NADO or NGB if he has a TUE? So when Wiggins had his TUE and was tested for Corticosteroids as yellow jersey holder, UCI were sent 20-odd AAFs during his Tour de France?

According to FB, Wiggins had three TUEs for triamcinolone, only one of which was in 2012, and that was only for one dose, one day, in late June before the start of the Tour (though the TUEs mention other TUEs not listed for May). I believe Wiggins only admitted to that, as well. He also had three TUEs for salbutamol and some other substances for 2008 and 2009, but I don't know how often he was tested at this time.