All About Salbutamol

[glassmoon]

so do we know how dehydrated froome was?

Well... obviously he was basically pissing bricks

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Not helps, no. But plenty of bike races have been won by ill riders.

Anyway if Ken Fitch, the guy that invented the rules on Salbutomol is all made up in Times this morning below, I will gladly remove myself from Social Media and you guys can continue the conspiracy lol!

The sports scientist responsible for the salbutamol regulations that left Chris Froome fighting to save his reputation has admitted that the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) rules are flawed and need an overhaul because of the risk of false positives.

Ken Fitch said that he had to support Froome’s case, which he did with a written submission, because he felt that the Wada threshold, based on his studies, was catching innocent athletes. Professor Fitch believes that Wada’s statement clearing Froome of an adverse analytical finding (AAF) from La Vuelta last year was “unprecedented”.

Professor Fitch, who works for the University of Western Australia, told The Times: “The outcome of this is groundbreaking. It’s big not just for Chris but for asthmatic athletes and for the Wada rules. Most significantly, they have accepted that the salbutamol you take and the level in your urine do not necessarily correlate . . . They should have accepted it years ago.”

Those Wada regulations, including a maximum dose of 1,600 mcg per 24 hours (16 puffs) and a decision limit for an AAF of 1,200 ng/ml urinary concentration were based on work that Fitch led in the 1990s. Fitch was a member of the IOC medical commission for 28 years and pushed it to carry out studies to distinguish between oral and inhaled salbutamol.

“I’ll admit I made a terrible blunder,” he said. “The sport with the highest prevalence was swimming so that’s who we tested. But what happens after an hour of swimming? A full bladder. Cycling for five hours is completely different, you have little but quite concentrated urine. And a major error with our studies was that we did not measure the urine for specific gravity.

“From those studies came the threshold, which Wada increased to the 1,200 decision limit, but it was based on a false premise. The studies were never performed with the aim of finding the amount of salbutamol in urine after inhaling the allowable quantity. As I had a major role in these decisions, I acknowledge my error . . . I feel quite concerned about cases like Chris Froome.

“If I had wanted to clarify the salbutamol levels of athletes in urine after taking the permitted dose, I would have done multiple studies, administering different doses and collecting urine over a period of time, not just once an hour later. A number have been carried out . . . but they have shown the problem that the metabolism and excretion of salbutamol is capricious.”

Fitch, who served on Wada committees, has opposed Wada in cases, including that of Alessandro Petacchi, the Italian sprinter who served a one-year ban after a high salbutamol reading at the Giro d’Italia in 2007. Wada did not allow urine concentration to be corrected for specific gravity, ie dehydration, but changed the rules in the past year. “I was arguing [for that correction] in 2007. Petacchi was innocent . . . They [Wada] have to accept that the rules need changing,” Fitch said.

Dr Olivier Rabin, the agency’s director of science, has argued that “the rules are right” but said that the details of the Froome case would be sent to Wada’s listing committee for assessment.

interesting re the prof and his intervention.....and new to the table....

however...

if a guy goes through the speed cameras in a 30 zone at 50 and argues that the basis of the camera set up is wrong...he was still doing 50

he may walk and the camera set up may change...but 50 is 50...or 2000 is 2000

That's a completely misleading analogy.

Im no scientist, but even i can read that whats being implied is that you can stay within the legal dose and still trigger an AAF due to the innacuracies of relying on urine levels to determine ingested doseage. At least with current testing protocol.

Sticking to your analogy, the driver can go past a camera at 30mph, but the camera is fecked so it clocks him at 50mph. Does the driver still get a fine?

Wait. Let me guess...if its Chris Froome driving the car he still deserves to get a fine, because we know he was almost probably definetely speeding another day, yeah

 

[Mamil]

Re:

Not helps, no. But plenty of bike races have been won by ill riders.

Name them, at pro tour level.

What garbage. Ill riders don't win grand tours. I will accept that a rider who already has a decent lead and then becomes sick in the third week might be able to hang on, and Froome in the 2015 Tour may fall into this category. But sick riders don't gain time on healthy rivals, unless they use illegal assistance. Does not happen.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Not helps, no. But plenty of bike races have been won by ill riders.

Anyway if Ken Fitch, the guy that invented the rules on Salbutomol is all made up in Times this morning below, I will gladly remove myself from Social Media and you guys can continue the conspiracy lol!

The sports scientist responsible for the salbutamol regulations that left Chris Froome fighting to save his reputation has admitted that the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) rules are flawed and need an overhaul because of the risk of false positives.

Ken Fitch said that he had to support Froome’s case, which he did with a written submission, because he felt that the Wada threshold, based on his studies, was catching innocent athletes. Professor Fitch believes that Wada’s statement clearing Froome of an adverse analytical finding (AAF) from La Vuelta last year was “unprecedented”.

Professor Fitch, who works for the University of Western Australia, told The Times: “The outcome of this is groundbreaking. It’s big not just for Chris but for asthmatic athletes and for the Wada rules. Most significantly, they have accepted that the salbutamol you take and the level in your urine do not necessarily correlate . . . They should have accepted it years ago.”

Those Wada regulations, including a maximum dose of 1,600 mcg per 24 hours (16 puffs) and a decision limit for an AAF of 1,200 ng/ml urinary concentration were based on work that Fitch led in the 1990s. Fitch was a member of the IOC medical commission for 28 years and pushed it to carry out studies to distinguish between oral and inhaled salbutamol.

“I’ll admit I made a terrible blunder,” he said. “The sport with the highest prevalence was swimming so that’s who we tested. But what happens after an hour of swimming? A full bladder. Cycling for five hours is completely different, you have little but quite concentrated urine. And a major error with our studies was that we did not measure the urine for specific gravity.

“From those studies came the threshold, which Wada increased to the 1,200 decision limit, but it was based on a false premise. The studies were never performed with the aim of finding the amount of salbutamol in urine after inhaling the allowable quantity. As I had a major role in these decisions, I acknowledge my error . . . I feel quite concerned about cases like Chris Froome.

“If I had wanted to clarify the salbutamol levels of athletes in urine after taking the permitted dose, I would have done multiple studies, administering different doses and collecting urine over a period of time, not just once an hour later. A number have been carried out . . . but they have shown the problem that the metabolism and excretion of salbutamol is capricious.”

Fitch, who served on Wada committees, has opposed Wada in cases, including that of Alessandro Petacchi, the Italian sprinter who served a one-year ban after a high salbutamol reading at the Giro d’Italia in 2007. Wada did not allow urine concentration to be corrected for specific gravity, ie dehydration, but changed the rules in the past year. “I was arguing [for that correction] in 2007. Petacchi was innocent . . . They [Wada] have to accept that the rules need changing,” Fitch said.

Dr Olivier Rabin, the agency’s director of science, has argued that “the rules are right” but said that the details of the Froome case would be sent to Wada’s listing committee for assessment.

interesting re the prof and his intervention.....and new to the table....

however...

if a guy goes through the speed cameras in a 30 zone at 50 and argues that the basis of the camera set up is wrong...he was still doing 50

he may walk and the camera set up may change...but 50 is 50...or 2000 is 2000

That's a completely misleading analogy.

Im no scientist, but even i can read that whats being implied is that you can stay within the legal dose and still trigger an AAF due to the innacuracies of relying on urine levels to determine ingested doseage. At least with current testing protocol.

Sticking to your analogy, the driver can go past a camera at 30mph, but the camera is ****** so it clocks him at 50mph. Does the driver still get a fine?

Wait. Let me guess...if its Chris Froome driving the car he still deserves to get a fine, because we know he was almost probably definetely speeding another day, yeah

Yep it's not a good analogy from the understanding that the speed limit is not based on a false premise.
Ken Fitch is claiming the threshold itself is based on a false premise because he never looked at what 'allowed' amounts of salbutomol actually ends up in the urine, factored in dehydration and used swimming as the test group, but swimmers bladders are always going to be full after an hour in the pool.

 

[rick james]

so do we know how dehydrated froome was?

Very very ….is the correct answer

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

The mountain stage after which his sample went AAF by a lot, he beat all his GC rivals and gained time on most of them.

Where can I get this chest infection?

 

[samhocking]

Problem isn't the dehydration anymore, it's that the inhalation threshold needs to be based on the premise of finding out how much of an allowed dose of inhaled Salbutomol can end up in urine of any specific gravity and not how much of an illegal amount of inhaled or oral/injected Salbutomol does in fully hydrated range of subjects as is the rules at the moment.

 

[samhocking]

Re:

The mountain stage after which his sample went AAF by a lot, he beat all his GC rivals and gained time on most of them.

Where can I get this chest infection?

Race a Grand Tour, half the peloton are falling apart in last week. See Pinot, Doumilin & Yates. All with chest problems in last week of Tour and after finishing and that's just the good riders!

 

[Winterfold]

Sam

what you're saying, in effect, is that at the very limits of human physiology i.e. the pointy end of a mountain stage in the third week of a GT, having chronic asthma and a chest infection actually helps......

exercise physiologists take note

The delusion is total isn't it?

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

The mountain stage after which his sample went AAF by a lot, he beat all his GC rivals and gained time on most of them.

Where can I get this chest infection?

This type of chest infection only requires to believe you have a chest infection not an actual chest infection.

 

[Mamil]

Re: Re:

Race a Grand Tour, half the peloton are falling apart in last week. See Pinot, Doumilin & Yates. All with chest problems in last week of Tour and after finishing and that's just the good riders!

And what happened to Pinot, Yates and even to some extent Dumoulin when they got sick? Compare that to supposedly sick/increased asthma Froome.

Thanks for proving my point yourself. Talk about an own goal

 

[Winterfold]

Re: Re:

The mountain stage after which his sample went AAF by a lot, he beat all his GC rivals and gained time on most of them.

Where can I get this chest infection?

Race a Grand Tour, half the peloton are falling apart in last week. See Pinot, Doumilin & Yates. All with chest problems in last week of Tour and after finishing and that's just the good riders!

I know Alex is credible when it comes to understanding sports physiology and coaching elite athletes.

What are your qualifications, such that you can tell him how racing bikes works?

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

Race a Grand Tour, half the peloton are falling apart in last week. See Pinot, Doumilin & Yates. All with chest problems in last week of Tour and after finishing and that's just the good riders!

And what happened to Pinot, Yates and even to some extent Dumoulin when they got sick? Compare that to supposedly sick/increased asthma Froome.

Thanks for proving my point yourself. Talk about an own goal

Pinot almost completed last week with illness. Doumilin came second and he was coming down ill in last week and day after Giro ended said he was very ill for a week after.
I'm just saying, being high up on GC and winning races with chest issues is part of cycling, it always has been, Froome is no different. Clearly it's bronchial stuff, it's not going to be an issue unless you don't medically keep it under control like we know all team doctors in all teams are they to do. That is their primary role. Racing a bike for 3 weeks is unhealthy, all team doctors say that.

 

[Franklin]

So you mean that Pinot collapsed and Dumoulin actually lost the Giro even though he was the strongest before? So actually people get worse when sick except Froome.

How many times do you want to make own goals? The victory lap you are making here is embarrassing.

Serious Sam, think about what you are saying, look at the facts and then come back to us with normal posts, okay?

 

[samhocking]

Froome wasn't ill in Giro, he won, so the premise that being ill wins Froome Grand Tours is false, proven by the fact two second best riders for the best part of the last week were becoming ill. One of them was on the podium ill. The other, 2 days off being on the podium ill.

Stage 19
GBR 1 FROOME, Chris (SKY) 80:21:59 (NOT ILL)
NED 2 DUMOULIN, Tom (SUNWEB) + 40 (ILL)
FRA 3 PINOT, Thibaut (GROUPAMA - FDJ) + 4:17 (ILL)

 

[gillan1969]

so do we know how dehydrated froome was?

Very very ….is the correct answer

so he's winning races with a chest infection, chronic asthma, very very dehydrated and a potential kidney malfunction.......

literally, christ on a bike

imagine the damage he could do healthy and hydrated.....

I'm meaning is the level of dehydration been ascertained from his sample in which case can we deduce what other symptoms of dehydration accompany that level...

 

[samhocking]

Lets see Tom Doumilins comments about winning 2017 Giro

Tom Dumoulin: Saving maglia rosa after sickness was a big mental win

 

[Mamil]

Re:

Froome wasn't ill in Giro, he won, so the premise that being ill wins Froome Grand Tours is false, proven by the fact two second best riders for the best part of the last week were becoming ill. One of them was on the podium ill. The other, 2 days off being on the podium ill.

Stage 19
GBR 1 FROOME, Chris (SKY) 80:21:59 (NOT ILL)
NED 2 DUMOULIN, Tom (SUNWEB) + 40 (ILL)
FRA 3 PINOT, Thibaut (GROUPAMA - FDJ) + 4:17 (ILL)

Come on Sam, you are better than that. You know full well we are talking about Froome supposedly being sick but gaining time at and winning the Vuelta, not the Giro. And it's not the only time he's claimed it either.

Keep digging.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Not helps, no. But plenty of bike races have been won by ill riders.

Anyway if Ken Fitch, the guy that invented the rules on Salbutomol is all made up in Times this morning below, I will gladly remove myself from Social Media and you guys can continue the conspiracy lol!

The sports scientist responsible for the salbutamol regulations that left Chris Froome fighting to save his reputation has admitted that the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) rules are flawed and need an overhaul because of the risk of false positives.

Ken Fitch said that he had to support Froome’s case, which he did with a written submission, because he felt that the Wada threshold, based on his studies, was catching innocent athletes. Professor Fitch believes that Wada’s statement clearing Froome of an adverse analytical finding (AAF) from La Vuelta last year was “unprecedented”.

Professor Fitch, who works for the University of Western Australia, told The Times: “The outcome of this is groundbreaking. It’s big not just for Chris but for asthmatic athletes and for the Wada rules. Most significantly, they have accepted that the salbutamol you take and the level in your urine do not necessarily correlate . . . They should have accepted it years ago.”

Those Wada regulations, including a maximum dose of 1,600 mcg per 24 hours (16 puffs) and a decision limit for an AAF of 1,200 ng/ml urinary concentration were based on work that Fitch led in the 1990s. Fitch was a member of the IOC medical commission for 28 years and pushed it to carry out studies to distinguish between oral and inhaled salbutamol.

“I’ll admit I made a terrible blunder,” he said. “The sport with the highest prevalence was swimming so that’s who we tested. But what happens after an hour of swimming? A full bladder. Cycling for five hours is completely different, you have little but quite concentrated urine. And a major error with our studies was that we did not measure the urine for specific gravity.

“From those studies came the threshold, which Wada increased to the 1,200 decision limit, but it was based on a false premise. The studies were never performed with the aim of finding the amount of salbutamol in urine after inhaling the allowable quantity. As I had a major role in these decisions, I acknowledge my error . . . I feel quite concerned about cases like Chris Froome.

“If I had wanted to clarify the salbutamol levels of athletes in urine after taking the permitted dose, I would have done multiple studies, administering different doses and collecting urine over a period of time, not just once an hour later. A number have been carried out . . . but they have shown the problem that the metabolism and excretion of salbutamol is capricious.”

Fitch, who served on Wada committees, has opposed Wada in cases, including that of Alessandro Petacchi, the Italian sprinter who served a one-year ban after a high salbutamol reading at the Giro d’Italia in 2007. Wada did not allow urine concentration to be corrected for specific gravity, ie dehydration, but changed the rules in the past year. “I was arguing [for that correction] in 2007. Petacchi was innocent . . . They [Wada] have to accept that the rules need changing,” Fitch said.

Dr Olivier Rabin, the agency’s director of science, has argued that “the rules are right” but said that the details of the Froome case would be sent to Wada’s listing committee for assessment.

interesting re the prof and his intervention.....and new to the table....

however...

if a guy goes through the speed cameras in a 30 zone at 50 and argues that the basis of the camera set up is wrong...he was still doing 50

he may walk and the camera set up may change...but 50 is 50...or 2000 is 2000

That's a completely misleading analogy.

Im no scientist, but even i can read that whats being implied is that you can stay within the legal dose and still trigger an AAF due to the innacuracies of relying on urine levels to determine ingested doseage. At least with current testing protocol.

Sticking to your analogy, the driver can go past a camera at 30mph, but the camera is ****** so it clocks him at 50mph. Does the driver still get a fine?

Wait. Let me guess...if its Chris Froome driving the car he still deserves to get a fine, because we know he was almost probably definetely speeding another day, yeah

no, my analagy is that a driver can go past at any speed over 30 and won't get a fine because if he can demonstrate that the camera is faulty then the result, any result, becomes null and void...case dismissed


so...we don't know...still......publishing the evidence will however help with this and we await

 

[samhocking]

It's still a false premise Fitch is describing gillan. The rules (camera) isn't broken as such, it's just that it doesn't know what 30mph looks like for 'every colour of car' that it flashes. It only knows 30mph for e.g red cars. Blue cars it incorrectly measures them at 50mph.

 

[Franklin]

Re:

Lets see Tom Doumilins comments about winning 2017 Giro

Tom Dumoulin: Saving maglia rosa after sickness was a big mental win

And how did that go down again? Did he make up time or did he actually collapse in the Queen stage and loose time?

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

Not helps, no. But plenty of bike races have been won by ill riders.

Anyway if Ken Fitch, the guy that invented the rules on Salbutomol is all made up in Times this morning below, I will gladly remove myself from Social Media and you guys can continue the conspiracy lol!

The sports scientist responsible for the salbutamol regulations that left Chris Froome fighting to save his reputation has admitted that the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada) rules are flawed and need an overhaul because of the risk of false positives.

Ken Fitch said that he had to support Froome’s case, which he did with a written submission, because he felt that the Wada threshold, based on his studies, was catching innocent athletes. Professor Fitch believes that Wada’s statement clearing Froome of an adverse analytical finding (AAF) from La Vuelta last year was “unprecedented”.

Professor Fitch, who works for the University of Western Australia, told The Times: “The outcome of this is groundbreaking. It’s big not just for Chris but for asthmatic athletes and for the Wada rules. Most significantly, they have accepted that the salbutamol you take and the level in your urine do not necessarily correlate . . . They should have accepted it years ago.”

Those Wada regulations, including a maximum dose of 1,600 mcg per 24 hours (16 puffs) and a decision limit for an AAF of 1,200 ng/ml urinary concentration were based on work that Fitch led in the 1990s. Fitch was a member of the IOC medical commission for 28 years and pushed it to carry out studies to distinguish between oral and inhaled salbutamol.

“I’ll admit I made a terrible blunder,” he said. “The sport with the highest prevalence was swimming so that’s who we tested. But what happens after an hour of swimming? A full bladder. Cycling for five hours is completely different, you have little but quite concentrated urine. And a major error with our studies was that we did not measure the urine for specific gravity.

“From those studies came the threshold, which Wada increased to the 1,200 decision limit, but it was based on a false premise. The studies were never performed with the aim of finding the amount of salbutamol in urine after inhaling the allowable quantity. As I had a major role in these decisions, I acknowledge my error . . . I feel quite concerned about cases like Chris Froome.

“If I had wanted to clarify the salbutamol levels of athletes in urine after taking the permitted dose, I would have done multiple studies, administering different doses and collecting urine over a period of time, not just once an hour later. A number have been carried out . . . but they have shown the problem that the metabolism and excretion of salbutamol is capricious.”

Fitch, who served on Wada committees, has opposed Wada in cases, including that of Alessandro Petacchi, the Italian sprinter who served a one-year ban after a high salbutamol reading at the Giro d’Italia in 2007. Wada did not allow urine concentration to be corrected for specific gravity, ie dehydration, but changed the rules in the past year. “I was arguing [for that correction] in 2007. Petacchi was innocent . . . They [Wada] have to accept that the rules need changing,” Fitch said.

Dr Olivier Rabin, the agency’s director of science, has argued that “the rules are right” but said that the details of the Froome case would be sent to Wada’s listing committee for assessment.

interesting re the prof and his intervention.....and new to the table....

however...

if a guy goes through the speed cameras in a 30 zone at 50 and argues that the basis of the camera set up is wrong...he was still doing 50

he may walk and the camera set up may change...but 50 is 50...or 2000 is 2000

That's a completely misleading analogy.

Im no scientist, but even i can read that whats being implied is that you can stay within the legal dose and still trigger an AAF due to the innacuracies of relying on urine levels to determine ingested doseage. At least with current testing protocol.

Sticking to your analogy, the driver can go past a camera at 30mph, but the camera is ****** so it clocks him at 50mph. Does the driver still get a fine?

Wait. Let me guess...if its Chris Froome driving the car he still deserves to get a fine, because we know he was almost probably definetely speeding another day, yeah

no, my analagy is that a driver can go past at any speed over 30 and won't get a fine because if he can demonstrate that the camera is faulty then the result, any result, becomes null and void...case dismissed


so...we don't know...still......publishing the evidence will however help with this and we await

Fair enough, with clarification the analogy is good now. So we agree, no matter what speed the driver is doing, he should/will not get any kind of penalty if the camera is faulty. Even less so if he has his own dashcam set up which shows he's only doing 30

Of course i completely agree on the need to release the data...if it doesn't come out for some reason then i even i might start to join in with the cover up/loophole theories, but it does feel that we are already seeing credible details being drip fed through, so i'll be very surprised if we don't see the full version sometime soon

 

[samhocking]

Overall he still won despite being ill. A GT is 3 weeks. Are you saying Doumilin never loses time when he's well? This is a bike race, not 1+1=2.

 

[Robert5091]

Swimming has the most asthmatics?! I thought cross country skiing was bad enough ... or are we talking EIA or just genetic influenced/childhood asthma? (mind you, there's probably not a lot of skiers near Weatern Australia University!)

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

It's still a false premise Fitch is describing gillan. The rules (camera) isn't broken as such, it's just that it doesn't know what 30mph looks like for 'every colour of car' that it flashes. It only knows 30mph for e.g red cars. Blue cars it incorrectly measures them at 50mph.

bloomin 'eck....its an analogy not a scientific proposal...