All About Salbutamol

[samhocking]

For Pettachi fans, not sure if this has been published. But this is one of Fitch's case studies off the Enigma paper. Also says Pettachi had documented asthma and a positive methacholine challenge in 2005 which is a test to determine how reactive or responsive your lungs are to things in the environment.

A 33-year-old cyclist with documented asthma and a positive methacholine challenge in 2005 won five stage s of the 2007 Giro d’Italia and was tested post-race on each occasion. After stage 11 that took more than five hours in hot humid conditions, his urinary SG was reported as 1.033 and the concentration of salbutamol reported as 1352 ng/mL with an expanded uncertainty of 45 ng/mL(Table 2). Recently, he had ceased an extemporaneously prepared betamethasone solution prescribed for him to be administered by inhalation as he considered it was ineffective. From information provided, it probably was of limited if any benefit.

 

[topcat]

1. There is an official record of the amount of Salbutomol that CF excreted after each of the stages.
2. We have Sky's version of how much CF inhaled (assuming he didn't take it illegally) each day.
3. It would have been easy for Sky to invent a list of values inhaled each day which would then imply there was huge variance in the excreted values.
4. This huge variance then implies the 10% chance of a false positive.
5. Unless a detailed scientific explanation is released, the whole process stinks.

 

[samhocking]

I don't think it does at all. The leak at such an early stage of results management against the very low pre-existing opinion of Sky has simply distorted opinion. I agree more data needs to come out to confirm WADA's 27 other cases like Froome's they now have though. This is the thing, if that's true, there are 27 others cases like Froomes that support the theory of simple distorted opinion due to the leak coming so early in the process.

As more an more people come forward and more facts come out, everything seems to suggest a serious flaw in how 'positives' are decided for Salbutomol over long periods of time at maximum and high allowed doses.

The problem with demanding transparency is you then enable dopers. The best we can hope for is semi-transparency where anything of use to dopers gets omitted, but then that will generate more speculation and doubt. It's not winnable by anywone to want transparency, it does not work like that in anti-doping because it just can't.

 

[samhocking]

GSK are notoriously corrupt and unscrupulous. I wouldn't be pushing anything they do as an example of virtuous, impartial involvement in the case.

Learning that they played a part makes me more suspicious of how Froome got off, not less.

Daren Austin is a really keen amateur cyclist. It would seem, he probably offered his services to Froome for free perhaps? Remember Froome, British Cycling & Team Sky all have worked at GSK's Human Performance Lab, so the relationship already existed for 20 years or so.

 

[Benotti69]

https://twitter.com/Huyskens/status/1015919187653545985

Dylan van Baarle van Team Sky zegt zojuist op @NPORadio1 dat hij ook salbutamol-pufjes gebruikt. Omdat de longen van een wielrenner zwaar belast worden. NIET omdat 'ie astma heeft dus...

Dylan van Baarle from Team Sky just said @NPORadio1 that he also used salbutamol-puffs. Because the lungs of a cyclist are heavily taxed. Not because ' IE has asthma so...

So Sky use it as a PED.

Claudio Corti, who was DS at Barloworld, said Froome did not have asthma and had no power.

Not hard to see the doping, really, it isn't.

 

[samhocking]

Been used like this in peloton for years, same as every team uses flumicil too. Crikey we used to have a couple of puffs off mates inhaler coming off a crit in the morning and RR in afternoon and chest is fubar. It's hardly dopeing lol!

 

[Benotti69]

Hardly doping? but when you are taking 500% more than the average asthma user it is doping. It is doping when you dont have asthma. It is a lot more than a few puffs. This stuff is not being puffed. It is taken orally or injected along with other stuff no doubt.

If you are going to lie about being asthmatic, what else are you lying about!

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

https://twitter.com/Huyskens/status/1015919187653545985

Dylan van Baarle van Team Sky zegt zojuist op @NPORadio1 dat hij ook salbutamol-pufjes gebruikt. Omdat de longen van een wielrenner zwaar belast worden. NIET omdat 'ie astma heeft dus...

Dylan van Baarle from Team Sky just said @NPORadio1 that he also used salbutamol-puffs. Because the lungs of a cyclist are heavily taxed. Not because ' IE has asthma so...

So Sky use it as a PED.

Claudio Corti, who was DS at Barloworld, said Froome did not have asthma and had no power.

Not hard to see the doping, really, it isn't.

Van barle has tweeted a different story.

https://twitter.com/DylanvanBaarle/status/1015977904025501696

I’m using the salbutamol because I have exercise induced asthma. Since I’m 10 years old I use my inhaler only when I’m exercising.

Sky are obviously as big into controlling the message as public strategies were for Armstrong.

 

[Merckx index]

Fitch’s two papers (there was another on asthma that was relevant) were discussed on this thread a long time ago. There’s nothing in them that makes a case against the salbutamol limit that wasn’t well known to WADA—a few cases of athletes exceeding the limit, and a couple of studies showing great variability. I dissected his claims on this thread at that time. The notion that this destroys the old salbutamol level is way over the top. As I said before, out of maybe 10-15,000 tests of asthmatic athletes per year, there appear to be only half a dozen who exceed the limit without a TUE and aren't exonerated. There's no reason to think those half a dozen were not in fact doping.

I’m not going to go into details on simulations, particularly since I don’t know exactly what they did. I will say that the simplest type of simulation that could have been run was probably one in which various salbutamol doses were associated with various urine levels with weighted probabilities. E.g., 100 ug would have, say, 20% chance of returning 50 ng/ml, 30% chance of 100 ng/ml, and so on. This would assume the sample was given a certain time after inhalation. For other times, for multiple doses at different times, and for urination in between dose and sample, the weights would have to be adjusted to different values. Presumably the effect of inhaling one day on the next day was also accounted for.

But there are all kinds of problems with this. Even if you trust that Froome not only knows how much he took every day, and when, and is honest about it (he could definitely have an interest not to be) there is going to be a large error or uncertainty in assigning these weights, particularly with the relatively small number available from the Vuelta (twenty or so is not a lot, given that each one would have different conditions associated with it, which would have to be factored in, resulting in more uncertainty). When you run the simulation, to determine the probability that a high dose exceeds the limit, these cumulative uncertainties would probably make it fairly easy to exceed the limit just by manipulating the weights a little. There is much, much more to this than I can say here, but again, unless/until I see what they actually did, not much point in discussing it further.

What Froome’s team was trying to do, in other words, is turn this into a passport case, where a baseline is created based on the rider’s own previous values, then estimate the odds that his values in one questionable sample exceeded certain limits above that baseline. This is a good strategy, because the passport probably catches even fewer dopers than the EPO test does. But there are several complicating factors applying this to salbutamol cases that don’t exist in a passport case.

Obviously, every scientific advisor says his client has been proven innocent. Floyd’s thought he should have gotten off. Do you think Contador’s team (which included Martin) didn’t think they had proven it was meat? If we’re going by what’s reported in the media, it’s also been reported that the decision to drop the case was not made by Rabin, but from higher up. They no doubt realized that even if they won at the Tribunal, the case would have been appealed to CAS, meaning more time and more money. All for maybe a nine month’s suspension, and all the time the case was dragging out, Froome in the Tour was a huge problem.

Did WADA’s own scientific experts think they should have dropped the case? I haven’t heard that they did. This sounds like when the feds initially dropped their case against LA, and all the lawyers who actually worked on the case were appalled.

 

[hazaran]

You still haven't learned the difference between Salbutamol and Clenbuterol? For all we know his advisors could have invented the perpetuum mobile and it wouldn't have gotten him off.

 

[Benotti69]

The Times of London has 2 seperate articles on Froome giving different information about his Salbutamol intake.

One article claims Froome never exceeded 8 puffs a day.

https://ton.twitter.com/1.1/ton/data/dm/1016041138678128644/1016041078061924352/lcbF3J-j.jpg:large


The other claims he was taking it up to 10 times a day.


https://ton.twitter.com/1.1/ton/data/dm/1016041359659192327/1016041322174730242/e0RBhtUb.jpg:large

So much misinformation out there, and that appears to be part of Sky's mantra. Keep people guessing and misinformed.

Sky do not want anyone looking at the big picture. How did this guy from the Grupetto get to be the biggest modern day cycling star? A guy who stares at his screen and crashes lots is leaving everyone behind while apparently being a walking hospital patient.

 

[Robert5091]

As an aside - from 2017 - Inhalers raise an asthma patient's risk of pneumonia hospitalisation by 83%
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4429066/Asthma-inhalers-cause-pneumonia.html

 

[CTQ]

In this interview published in february 2018, Van Baarle said the he was already using Salbutamol before he joined Sky. At the radio, it wasn't a scoop.

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/02/23/ik-voel-me-nog-net-geen-koning-a1593446

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

In this interview published in february 2018, Van Baarle said the he was already using Salbutamol before he joined Sky. At the radio, it wasn't a scoop.

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/02/23/ik-voel-me-nog-net-geen-koning-a1593446

Vaughters silence again another red flag.

 

[CTQ]

Re: Re:

In this interview published in february 2018, Van Baarle said the he was already using Salbutamol before he joined Sky. At the radio, it wasn't a scoop.

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/02/23/ik-voel-me-nog-net-geen-koning-a1593446

Vaughters silence again another red flag.

not really, listen this podcast, he said that he had riders who use it.

https://twitter.com/cycling_podcast/status/1014577946651226117

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

In this interview published in february 2018, Van Baarle said the he was already using Salbutamol before he joined Sky. At the radio, it wasn't a scoop.

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/02/23/ik-voel-me-nog-net-geen-koning-a1593446

Vaughters silence again another red flag.

not really, listen this podcast, he said that he had riders who use it.

https://twitter.com/cycling_podcast/status/1014577946651226117

Did he ask them to produce evdence from GPs they had it from an early age or did he look them in the eye....

 

[CTQ]

Re: Re:

In this interview published in february 2018, Van Baarle said the he was already using Salbutamol before he joined Sky. At the radio, it wasn't a scoop.

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/02/23/ik-voel-me-nog-net-geen-koning-a1593446

Vaughters silence again another red flag.

not really, listen this podcast, he said that he had riders who use it.

https://twitter.com/cycling_podcast/status/1014577946651226117

Did he ask them to produce evdence from GPs they had it from an early age or did he look them in the eye....

do the effort to listen yourself if ever you are really interested by the answers

 

[TourOfSardinia]

If we go with what Van Baarle reports we can be pretty sure that Dawg continued routine Salbutamol
without asthmatic symptoms during the Giro as well as the Vuelta.

One might have thought Sky might have cut back - but no?

 

[samhocking]

You don't need evidence of Asthma to be prescribed Salbutomol for EIA in your team lol. Simply your team doctor gets you to do a flow test is usually enough. It's hardly even worth discussing. Crikey at one point Salbutomol was available off-the-shelf in UK supermarkets.

 

[Merckx index]

Re:

The Times of London has 2 seperate articles on Froome giving different information about his Salbutamol intake.

One article claims Froome never exceeded 8 puffs a day.

https://ton.twitter.com/1.1/ton/data/dm/1016041138678128644/1016041078061924352/lcbF3J-j.jpg:large


The other claims he was taking it up to 10 times a day.


https://ton.twitter.com/1.1/ton/data/dm/1016041359659192327/1016041322174730242/e0RBhtUb.jpg:large

I also saw an article a few days ago quoting Froome that he took 10 puffs one day. By one day he might have meant a 24 hour period, but it's more likely in that context he meant during a waking day--from when he got up till when he was tested at the end of the stage--which would mean he was over the allowed amount.

Regarding that, people may recall that only recently did WADA clarify the rule by using a diagram to explain how much salbutamol could be taken and when. The reason for this is because some people misinterpreted the rule. Suppose you took no salbutamol for ten hours, then took 800 ug. Some people interpreted the rules as meaning that after two additional hours you could take another 800 ug, with the first 800 ug counting towards one twelve hour period, and the second 800 ug counting towards a second twelve hour period. WADA put up the diagram to emphasize that this wasn't allowed, that the 800 ug rule applied to any twelve hour period. But it's quite possible Froome didn't get this. After all, this is the guy who referred to the causative agent in schisto--a disease he claimed to have had for many years--as a virus.

 

[veganrob]

Re:

You don't need evidence of Asthma to be prescribed Salbutomol for EIA in your team lol. Simply your team doctor gets you to do a flow test is usually enough. It's hardly even worth discussing. Crikey at one point Salbutomol was available off-the-shelf in UK supermarkets.

So there really is no proof at all the Froome has asthma? None is needed right? Just have to ask him and that's enough.

 

[samhocking]

I have no idea. I'd say, given he's just been exonerated for an Asthma-related drug, it might have been a question UCI asked him maybe lol. If they didn't, they deserve to be seen as baboons!

 

[Benotti69]

WADA statement.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-07/wada-clarifies-facts-regarding-uci-decision-on-christopher-froome

In April, WADA requested to intervene in the UCI proceedings as a third party so as to meet any challenge to the salbutamol regime but its request was denied by the UCI Tribunal. Despite this denial, and in order to assist the parties, WADA provided a further detailed note on the salbutamol regime on 15 May, addressing the substance of Mr. Froome’s questions.

When WADA received Mr. Froome's substantial explanations and evidence on 4 June, the Agency promptly reviewed them together with both in-house and external experts and liaised with the UCI before communicating its position statement on 28 June. Then, on 2 July, UCI announced its decision to close the case.

So no testing of Froome.

WADA the PR side of the sport that loves its good personal relations with sports top stars!!!

 

[bigcog]

Re:

WADA statement.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-07/wada-clarifies-facts-regarding-uci-decision-on-christopher-froome

In April, WADA requested to intervene in the UCI proceedings as a third party so as to meet any challenge to the salbutamol regime but its request was denied by the UCI Tribunal. Despite this denial, and in order to assist the parties, WADA provided a further detailed note on the salbutamol regime on 15 May, addressing the substance of Mr. Froome’s questions.

When WADA received Mr. Froome's substantial explanations and evidence on 4 June, the Agency promptly reviewed them together with both in-house and external experts and liaised with the UCI before communicating its position statement on 28 June. Then, on 2 July, UCI announced its decision to close the case.

So no testing of Froome.

WADA the PR side of the sport that loves its good personal relations with sports top stars!!!

We already know they didn't do a test, that's been stated previously.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

WADA statement.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-07/wada-clarifies-facts-regarding-uci-decision-on-christopher-froome

In April, WADA requested to intervene in the UCI proceedings as a third party so as to meet any challenge to the salbutamol regime but its request was denied by the UCI Tribunal. Despite this denial, and in order to assist the parties, WADA provided a further detailed note on the salbutamol regime on 15 May, addressing the substance of Mr. Froome’s questions.

When WADA received Mr. Froome's substantial explanations and evidence on 4 June, the Agency promptly reviewed them together with both in-house and external experts and liaised with the UCI before communicating its position statement on 28 June. Then, on 2 July, UCI announced its decision to close the case.

So no testing of Froome.

WADA the PR side of the sport that loves its good personal relations with sports top stars!!!

We already know they didn't do a test, that's been stated previously.

No test needed. They looked into his eyes.........



:lol: