All About Salbutamol

[Wiggo's Package]

Re: Re:

"In the circumstances, the Panel is satisfied that Mr. Petacchi bears no significant fault or negligence"

This is a typical judicial cop-out. Happens all too often (Pistorius case a good fairly recent example). Even a layperson can apply the facts to the law and see what the outcome should be. But the judge(s) bottle it

And this fudge is likely to be the endgame for Froome. And of course it will give the fanboys something to hang their hat on

 

[buckle]

https://sportsscientists.com/2017/12/brief-thoughts-froomes-salbutamol-result/

Returning to the sab meme from Ross Tucker.

I still think that a contaminated bb + daily puffs + oral ingestion might have tripped the test i.e. a genuine mistake by the team. On which point this latter test was conducted to examine sprinting performance not endurance:-

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22230921

I remain sceptical of the “2000” value. This looks like either a rounded down or up number.

 

[Red Rick]

https://sportsscientists.com/2017/12/brief-thoughts-froomes-salbutamol-result/

Returning to the sab meme from Ross Tucker.

I still think that a contaminated bb + daily puffs + oral ingestion might have tripped the test i.e. a genuine mistake by the team. On which point this latter test was conducted to examine sprinting performance not endurance:-

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22230921

I remain sceptical of the “2000” value. This looks like either a rounded down or up number.

I've no idea. Is it normal to round it up/down in normal cases? In my mind they were rounding toward the nearest 100 at these magnitudes

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Re:

"In the circumstances, the Panel is satisfied that Mr. Petacchi bears no significant fault or negligence"

This is a typical judicial cop-out. Happens all too often (Pistorius case a good fairly recent example).

Actually, Pistorius was eventually convicted of culpable homicide, and about a month ago, his sentence was more than doubled, to about fifteen years (less time served), though I'm not sure when he could get out on parole.

 

[thehog]

Two well written, concise articles that nail it:
https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2017/12/16/the-truth-behind-chris-froomes-doping/
https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/

Again, to sum up:

1. Road racers go faster when they lose weight and maintain muscle.
2. Salbutamol in large doses lets you lose weight and maintain muscle, and is legal in small doses.
3. Chris Froome has suddenly tested positive for a large dose of Salbutamol.
4. Chris Froome claims he uses Salbutamol because he’s an asthmatic.

Did you catch that? No. 4 is entirely compatible with No. 2, it just sounds somehow like a denial that he was doping.

The misdirection is quite effective because it takes our eyes off the performance enhancing effects of Salbutamol when taken intravenously or orally, and focuses instead on its legitimate and non-performance-enhancing effect as an inhalant for asthmatics. And by the way, we’re reminded, Chris Froome has always been an asthmatic; suffered terribly all his life from it, in fact.

Before we pick up on the hard-to-swallow story about Froome’s asthma, though, let’s remember that large doses of Salbutamol help you lose weight and keep muscle and therefore go faster. And Chris was very lean and very muscly and very fast on the day he tested positive. In old Perry Mason shows that would have been called a “smoking gun.”

However, we’re asked to ignore the smoking gun and look in a different place, the world of asthma, where Salbutamol has no performance enhancing effects because it is inhaled. We are asked to forget that Chris Froome is an endurance athlete, that endurance athletes go faster with weight loss and retained muscle, and that Salbutamol is very effective at doing just that. It’s as if we found the smoking gun in the defendant’s hand and were asked to consider not that he had murdered someone with it, but that he was a lifelong collector of guns, and we’re not allowed to point out that the truth of the latter statement doesn’t in any way negate the truth of the former.

So what does this all mean? In short, it means that in 2014 Froome and Team Sky hit upon a very clever way to take the Salbutamol doping issue off the table: Do it publicly, then defend it to the hilt as a legal, non-banned, crucial inhalant for a very sick athlete. This forced the skeptics to train their guns on Salbutamol’s performance enhancing effects as an inhalant (there are none), and dragged everyone into the “Is Chris an asthmatic?” debate, while artfully sidestepping the only issue that matters: Salbutamol is easily obtained, legal, easily abused, has a very short half life so is hard to detect, is defensible when you’re busted for it, and helps you lose weight and retain muscle mass and win grand tours.

Yes, agreed. Very well written, without the regular emotion of a Sky drug bust.

 

[70kmph]

Froome should be very careful now
Sky think they can strong arm their way through every situation
But if the UCI really wants to play hard ball
They can go back and retest Froome Tour samples
Have a look at the precise nature of the Salbuterol
Not a pretty picture

 

[samhocking]

https://sportsscientists.com/2017/12/brief-thoughts-froomes-salbutamol-result/

Returning to the sab meme from Ross Tucker.

I still think that a contaminated bb + daily puffs + oral ingestion might have tripped the test i.e. a genuine mistake by the team. On which point this latter test was conducted to examine sprinting performance not endurance:-

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22230921

I remain sceptical of the “2000” value. This looks like either a rounded down or up number.

Surely nobody transfuses blood they've directly drawn? You would separate the blood so this contamination glow simply could not possibly happen? Unless Froome is banking his own blood and transfusing his own blood privately in a Cobra back of his fridge DIY way of course?

 

[samhocking]

Does anyone know at what levels cardiac arrest becomes a real possibility with Salbutomol? Obviously there's a risk. Just thinking out loud, that with a reading of 2000ng/ml after the stage, a 4 hour half life, Froome was closer to a 4000ng/ml reading at the start line from transfusing 1 litre of blood, if that is what he did?

So, if 1 litre of transfused blood can raise salbutomol levels in urine to 4000ng/ml at start of a stage when obviously that's got diluted with your other 5 litres already in your body, does that mean he had the equivalent of 4000ng/ml x (5 litres) in his body at the time of withdrawing his blood. i.e. he would have had a urine reading of something like 20,000ng/ml had he tested his urine when withdrawing his blood initially or does it not work like that once processed from the blood to the urine in the body?

 

[brownbobby]

Just been reading up a bit on dosages being recommended for fat loss over on one of the body building forums. These guys, as acknowledged previously seem to know their stuff when it comes to weight loss.

For a typical fat loss cycle, they're talking starting doses of 8mg per day, ramping up to 24mg per day once tolerance quickly builds. That's 24000 mcg per day for comparison purposes against the sort of dosage it's being suggested Froome must have taken to trigger the readings.

This suggests that although high by WADA testing thresholds, in terms of physique enhancement, it's not even beginning to look like any kind of meaningful dose.

Or am I missing something

 

[samhocking]

1600mg per day (24 hours) is the WADA rule via inhalation. So not sure how 24mg per day via pill for bodybuilding weightloss would compare to that?

 

[brownbobby]

Re:

1600mg per day (24 hours) is the WADA rule via inhalation. So not sure how 24mg per day via pill for bodybuilding weightloss would compare to that?

I'm sure that's mcg's isn't it? So only 1.6 mg?

 

[Wiggo's Package]

Re: Re:

"In the circumstances, the Panel is satisfied that Mr. Petacchi bears no significant fault or negligence"

This is a typical judicial cop-out. Happens all too often (Pistorius case a good fairly recent example).

Actually, Pistorius was eventually convicted of culpable homicide, and about a month ago, his sentence was more than doubled, to about fifteen years (less time served), though I'm not sure when he could get out on parole.

Indeed, that was my point

Pistorius' trial played out live on TV and the media were actually pretty good at identifying how the key facts should be viewed in light of the key legal principles. And it was obvious to any lay person who'd been concentrating that the verdict should be culpable homicide. But the judge (there was no jury) bottled it. No doubt the huge media pressure played a part. And the emotion of Pistorius' man with no legs crying act. Other factors such as race as well probably

But the facts were not applied correctly to the law, as the appeal court eventually established. Although they bottled the sentence! So there was another appeal before the sentence got bumped up. But in the end in South Africa the privileged white man got pretty much the same justice as a poor black man would have got. Which actually gives me faith in the South African judicial system

Back on topic, whether it would be wise to have have faith in the UCI/CAS's judicial system is another question...

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

1600mg per day (24 hours) is the WADA rule via inhalation. So not sure how 24mg per day via pill for bodybuilding weightloss would compare to that?

I'm sure that's mcg's isn't it? So only 1.6 mg?

Sorry, yes, I meant i'm not sure how 1600 micrograms per day of inhaled salbutomol translates into the urine through the lungs, compared to 24 milligrams from a pill through the stomach.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Start of Vuelta. Check Froome's right hand, zero fat, worked wonders.

Unless you are Betancur they all look like that after doing the Tour

I'm looking at his exposed right arm. It looks like that of a limb going through decomposition. That really doesn't look normal.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Start of Vuelta. Check Froome's right hand, zero fat, worked wonders.

Unless you are Betancur they all look like that after doing the Tour

You do realize this is the start of the Vuelta? Not the end.

He did the Tour-Vuelta double so he first did the Tour. Then he did a training camp on top. There was neither time nor opportunity to gain any significant amount of weight..

Honestly, can you really look at the photo and say that his arm looks anywhere near normal for any athlete? Emaciated prisoner of war, yes. How does one get themselves to that level of body mass without starvation ...or?

 

[samhocking]

Can't tell anything from a photo. He has some way to go to reach Dan Martin's huge head and spindly arms look stuck on what looks like a 5 years old sized body lol. Every GC contender looks emaciated these days compared to Armstrong's time apart from Rasmussen perhaps?

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Can't tell anything from a photo. He has some way to go to reach Dan Martin arms stuck on 5 years old sized body lol. Every GC contender looks emaciated these days compared to Armstrong's time apart from Rasmussen perhaps?

Dan Martin aint clean.

 

[samhocking]

Never said he was, that's the point. Froome still has room for 'improvement'.

 

[lefourbe]

Could that make the Transfusion theory more likely? Huge amounts of Salbutamol OOC to loose fat/retain muscle. What I don't get with the oral/injection theory during Vuelta is they know they would fail test if they increase dose too much. Also is there really a gain to oral/inject Salbutamol as one off just for one day? From DW article, most of his Salbutamol levels were much lower than 1000 during Vuelta, sometimes as low as 100..

Just been reading up a bit on dosages being recommended for fat loss over on one of the body building forums. These guys, as acknowledged previously seem to know their stuff when it comes to weight loss.

For a typical fat loss cycle, they're talking starting doses of 8mg per day, ramping up to 24mg per day once tolerance quickly builds. That's 24000 mcg per day for comparison purposes against the sort of dosage it's being suggested Froome must have taken to trigger the readings.

This suggests that although high by WADA testing thresholds, in terms of physique enhancement, it's not even beginning to look like any kind of meaningful dose.

Or am I missing something

 

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

Can't tell anything from a photo. He has some way to go to reach Dan Martin arms stuck on 5 years old sized body lol. Every GC contender looks emaciated these days compared to Armstrong's time apart from Rasmussen perhaps?

Dan Martin aint clean.

Based on what ?

 

[samhocking]

Based on arm size. Smaller the arms, the bigger the cheat : )

 

[bigcog]

Re:

Based on arm size. Smaller the arms, the bigger the cheat : )

Confirmed then :lol:

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

Can't tell anything from a photo. He has some way to go to reach Dan Martin arms stuck on 5 years old sized body lol. Every GC contender looks emaciated these days compared to Armstrong's time apart from Rasmussen perhaps?

Dan Martin aint clean.

Based on what ?

How British his teeth look.

 

[samhocking]

Kind of like the more ethical 50% hematocrit limit. Anyone with arms 50% smaller diameter than Carlos Betancur's serves a 2 year ban

 

[Clyde Puffer]

Re: Re:

Can't tell anything from a photo. He has some way to go to reach Dan Martin arms stuck on 5 years old sized body lol. Every GC contender looks emaciated these days compared to Armstrong's time apart from Rasmussen perhaps?

Dan Martin aint clean.

Based on what ?

How British his teeth look.

I thought his teeth looked more Irish