All About Salbutamol

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What will the verdict in Froome's salbutamol case?

  • He will be cleared

    Votes: 43 34.1%
  • 3 month ban

    Votes: 4 3.2%
  • 6 month ban

    Votes: 15 11.9%
  • 9 month ban

    Votes: 24 19.0%
  • 1 year ban

    Votes: 16 12.7%
  • 2 year ban

    Votes: 21 16.7%
  • 4 year ban

    Votes: 3 2.4%

  • Total voters
    126
Jul 27, 2010
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I thought CAS decisions had to be made public? If the rider can choose not to have it made public, why would they allow it to go public when they lose the decision? What did Contador or Petacchi, e.g., have to gain by having everyone able to see how their arguments were rebutted?

I do see one possible scenario where Froome might try to keep the decision under wraps. This is complicated, so bear with me. Froome was notified of the positive on Sept. 20. I assume he would want to have the B sample tested as soon as possible, within a month. Once he knew that was positive, he would have started assembling his legal and scientific team. The first thing any science advisor would do is look at the laboratory report, and would certainly note the USG. At that time, the change in the rules hadn’t been made official, and maybe the scientist wasn’t aware of it. But s/he would be aware that if the USG were high, it would be a point worth raising, particularly if the case went to CAS. And once the new rules were published, on Nov. 15, the scientist certainly should have known about it.

So I’ve been thinking, if the USG were high enough to get Froome off, wouldn’t the scientist realize that, point it out, and have the AAF removed? In fact, wouldn’t the AAF have been removed before the media found out about it, so that the leak never would have happened? And since the leak did happen, doesn’t this mean that the USG isn’t high enough, that that avenue has been closed off?

Except that the new rules don’t officially go into effect until March 2018. So technically, I don’t think that even if the USG is high enough, Froome’s AAF can be reversed before then. Froome could, of course, announce the situation, and tell everyone that he will be exonerated, and explain why. But to do that would be to admit that he’s getting off on what seems like a technicality, a rule that wasn’t in effect when his sample was taken and tested.

So possibly, Froome is just biding his time until March, at which point he will announce that his AAF has been reversed. When the media ask him how this came about, he will simply reply, truthfully, that he demonstrated to UCI/WADA’s satisfaction that his high level was the result of an allowed inhalation of salbutamol. He can even add that this became clear when dehydration was taken into account, since this issue has already been raised as possibly relevant by several scientists. What he doesn’t have to say is that his argument was only accepted because of the new rule. Thus avoiding a lot of bad PR.

This is a possibility. If it is the case, it means that Froome has basically been acting when he says this is a horrible result, that he doesn’t yet know how it happened, but he’s getting together all his records, and working on the solution. It’s all for show, so that people won’t realize when he announces his exoneration that it has anything to do with a rule change.

Would Froome really go to this much trouble in an attempt to hide the fact that he’s the beneficiary of a rule that wasn’t in effect when he tested positive? Would he allow this process, which makes him look bad as long as the case isn’t resolved, drag out two more months, when he could reassure everyone right now? Would his ploy even work, given that some of us do know about the rule change already? Maybe, I don’t know. But the main reason I take this possibility seriously is that the alternative—that his USG isn’t high enough—also has a problem.

If his science advisor, upon seeing the USG value, realized immediately it wouldn’t help Froome enough, there would remain only one other possibility to exonerate him: pass the lab test. But it was reported about a week ago that he hadn’t, and if he had, and passed, he would be announcing his exoneration, whereas if he had and failed, he would be suspended, and that would have to be made public.

If Froome were going to take the lab test, the time to have done it would have been last October or November, after the worlds, when he had free time. Now he’s in training camp, and really shouldn’t be messing around with high levels of salbutamol. He must have realized that before, so if he hasn’t taken the test yet, it seems to mean he isn’t going to. Which makes sense, because he almost certainly couldn’t pass it.

So here’s the problem. If his USG isn’t high enough to get him off, and if he’s not going to take the lab test, he has to take the case to CAS, now. There’s no other avenue open to him. If he makes that request, they can, if they push, probably finish the process and have a decision before the Giro, so he doesn’t have to race under a cloud. The longer he delays, the more likely it is that the CAS decision won’t be reached before the start of the Giro.

So why has he not announced that he’s taking it to CAS? Could he do this without its being made public? But even if he could, wouldn’t he want to tell everyone, so he won’t be thought to be stalling or delaying, so he can say he’s doing everything he can to get the case resolved before the Giro?
 
Dec 22, 2017
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Hi

To be fair, the Froome pozzy has to be viewed through the prism of everything that has already occurred in relation to Team Sky. In other words, Wiggins Jiffybag full of TUEs will be elided with Froome's puffing.

Its already visible in the cynical reaction of the UK media to the story. It is just an asthma inhaler after all, and the performance boosting attributes of it are at best moot, but the media are seizing it as if it was something far far worse. And that is the point, really. Froome will no longer be given the benefit of the doubt. He, and Sky, are now viewed as suspicious as hell, and the salbutamol is indicative of something far far worse, even if we don't actually know what it is yet.

Personally, I think they are done.
 
Jul 14, 2015
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For any CAS challenge, surely WADA (or the local anti doping agency?) would first have to make a decision? I feel you're overestimating just how quick they are :)
 
Jul 4, 2016
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September 7: Froome tests positive
September 20: Uci informs Froome
November: WADA changes rules to help Froome while Cookson is head of Uci
December 13: Froome’s positive test is leaked the day Cookson is out of office
Clearly collusion going on here. If Froome skates,
cycling will be dealt a big blow. There will be outrage
and loss of support for the sport. Surely Froome can't slither his way out of this one.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Merckx index said:
I thought CAS decisions had to be made public? If the rider can choose not to have it made public, why would they allow it to go public when they lose the decision? What did Contador or Petacchi, e.g., have to gain by having everyone able to see how their arguments were rebutted?

I do see one possible scenario where Froome might try to keep the decision under wraps. This is complicated, so bear with me. Froome was notified of the positive on Sept. 20. I assume he would want to have the B sample tested as soon as possible, within a month. Once he knew that was positive, he would have started assembling his legal and scientific team. The first thing any science advisor would do is look at the laboratory report, and would certainly note the USG. At that time, the change in the rules hadn’t been made official, and maybe the scientist wasn’t aware of it. But s/he would be aware that if the USG were high, it would be a point worth raising, particularly if the case went to CAS. And once the new rules were published, on Nov. 15, the scientist certainly should have known about it.

So I’ve been thinking, if the USG were high enough to get Froome off, wouldn’t the scientist realize that, point it out, and have the AAF removed? In fact, wouldn’t the AAF have been removed before the media found out about it, so that the leak never would have happened? And since the leak did happen, doesn’t this mean that the USG isn’t high enough, that that avenue has been closed off?

Except that the new rules don’t officially go into effect until March 2018. So technically, I don’t think that even if the USG is high enough, Froome’s AAF can be reversed before then. Froome could, of course, announce the situation, and tell everyone that he will be exonerated, and explain why. But to do that would be to admit that he’s getting off on what seems like a technicality, a rule that wasn’t in effect when his sample was taken and tested.

So possibly, Froome is just biding his time until March, at which point he will announce that his AAF has been reversed. When the media ask him how this came about, he will simply reply, truthfully, that he demonstrated to UCI/WADA’s satisfaction that his high level was the result of an allowed inhalation of salbutamol. He can even add that this became clear when dehydration was taken into account, since this issue has already been raised as possibly relevant by several scientists. What he doesn’t have to say is that his argument was only accepted because of the new rule. Thus avoiding a lot of bad PR.

This is a possibility. If it is the case, it means that Froome has basically been acting when he says this is a horrible result, that he doesn’t yet know how it happened, but he’s getting together all his records, and working on the solution. It’s all for show, so that people won’t realize when he announces his exoneration that it has anything to do with a rule change.

Would Froome really go to this much trouble in an attempt to hide the fact that he’s the beneficiary of a rule that wasn’t in effect when he tested positive? Would he allow this process, which makes him look bad as long as the case isn’t resolved, drag out two more months, when he could reassure everyone right now? Would his ploy even work, given that some of us do know about the rule change already? Maybe, I don’t know. But the main reason I take this possibility seriously is that the alternative—that his USG isn’t high enough—also has a problem.

If his science advisor, upon seeing the USG value, realized immediately it wouldn’t help Froome enough, there would remain only one other possibility to exonerate him: pass the lab test. But it was reported about a week ago that he hadn’t, and if he had, and passed, he would be announcing his exoneration, whereas if he had and failed, he would be suspended, and that would have to be made public.

If Froome were going to take the lab test, the time to have done it would have been last October or November, after the worlds, when he had free time. Now he’s in training camp, and really shouldn’t be messing around with high levels of salbutamol. He must have realized that before, so if he hasn’t taken the test yet, it seems to mean he isn’t going to. Which makes sense, because he almost certainly couldn’t pass it.

So here’s the problem. If his USG isn’t high enough to get him off, and if he’s not going to take the lab test, he has to take the case to CAS, now. There’s no other avenue open to him. If he makes that request, they can, if they push, probably finish the process and have a decision before the Giro, so he doesn’t have to race under a cloud. The longer he delays, the more likely it is that the CAS decision won’t be reached before the start of the Giro.

So why has he not announced that he’s taking it to CAS? Could he do this without its being made public? But even if he could, wouldn’t he want to tell everyone, so he won’t be thought to be stalling or delaying, so he can say he’s doing everything he can to get the case resolved before the Giro?

I agree with the analysis based on what's presented, but in my own mind I can't reconcile it with what I understand about the timeline.

- Since he was tested at the Vuelta, I presume it was the Spanish Anti-Doping Agency (AEPSAD) that conducted the control and is in charge of prosecuting the AAF.
- From there, I'm trying to figure out who would have been notified and when. I imagine that WADA, the rider's team and national federation would be made aware, as well as the UCI but I can't find it anywhere in the rules.
- People talk, so I imagine anyone senior enough with a need to know such as management at ASO, RCS, top sponsors, etc would find out. Not guaranteed by any stretch.

So first you have the sample taken.
Froome and a few others are informed of a positive (Cookson and Brailsford among them)
Froome grabs some lawyers and a scientist or two to watch the B-sample being tested
Then the B sample comes back positive triggering an AAF.
After the AAF, the UK government, WADA, the athlete, UKADA, and British Cycling are all informed as per the rules.
A decision is made to NOT suspend Froome. He also didn't accept a sanction.
Which means a hearing must be scheduled within a certain time frame (How long for AEPSAD? In Canada it's 45 days)
Froome announces his run at the Giro
Cookson says Sky's reputation is rehabilitated
Both these turkeys know about the AAF and the upcoming hearing
Three months after the AAF, long after the hearing would have happened in Canada, Sky magically releases a statement just as it hits the press.
Froome finally lawyers up and from his press statements, clearly didn't have a prepared message

So looking at all the facts, I can only surmise that all involved assumed that the AAF and the process around it would all go away without it ever becoming public. Seriously, when is the hearing scheduled? By WADA code it should be a fixed time after being informed of the AAF!

John Swanson
 
Jul 9, 2012
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Wiggo's Package said:
Alpe73 said:
sittingbison said:
Dawg arguing a technicality...and being let off...will do more harm for the sport than if he pleaded guilty any got 9 months.

As to the USG, it was 20C, 4 hours, and Dawg kicked **** rather than suffering badly (dehydrated). His USG would be totally normal. If there was ANYTHING that could have been argued in the THREE MONTHS BETWEEN being notified and the leak, it would have been to make it go away. It's only because he doesn't have an excuse that it is now public, and he is lawyered up.

Remember, Lance got a TUE for saddle sore cream ;)

What a load of UTTER RUBBISH !!! What dream world are you living in, mate?

Chris Froome is an employee of Team Sky. He is under contract and, as such, has obligations towards his employer.
His participation in professional cycling races is governed by and protected by the UCI. He has every right under the rules to seek exoneration in relation to the AAF, including hiring expensive lawyers to help him and Team Sky with the case. If he is unsuccessful and receives a particular sanction, so be it. No complaints from me.

The best thing for cycling, in the minds of the majority of cycling fans, is that (an exonerated) Dawg lines up at the Giro. Reigning champ of the Giro, Tommy Du vs Dawg ... could be one of the best duels in years!!! It could be epic. Maybe Tommy will give Froome a good kicking. Now wouldn't that be sweet! :p

Really?

I suspect even the majority of Brit cycling fans may now have had a gutful of Froome and Team Sky. Certainly the ones who are concentrating anyway

Froome has never had that much 'pull' in the UK though so not sure it makes much difference, Wiggins on the other hand ...
 
Jul 5, 2012
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Alpe73 said:
sittingbison said:
Dawg arguing a technicality...and being let off...will do more harm for the sport than if he pleaded guilty any got 9 months.

As to the USG, it was 20C, 4 hours, and Dawg kicked **** rather than suffering badly (dehydrated). His USG would be totally normal. If there was ANYTHING that could have been argued in the THREE MONTHS BETWEEN being notified and the leak, it would have been to make it go away. It's only because he doesn't have an excuse that it is now public, and he is lawyered up.

Remember, Lance got a TUE for saddle sore cream ;)

What a load of UTTER RUBBISH !!! What dream world are you living in, mate?

Chris Froome is an employee of Team Sky. He is under contract and, as such, has obligations towards his employer.
His participation in professional cycling races is governed by and protected by the UCI. He has every right under the rules to seek exoneration in relation to the AAF, including hiring expensive lawyers to help him and Team Sky with the case. If he is unsuccessful and receives a particular sanction, so be it. No complaints from me.

The best thing for cycling, in the minds of the majority of cycling fans, is that (an exonerated) Dawg lines up at the Giro. Reigning champ of the Giro, Tommy Du vs Dawg ... could be one of the best duels in years!!! It could be epic. Maybe Tommy will give Froome a good kicking. Now wouldn't that be sweet! :p

Dawgs obligation to his employer is to not dope let alone get caught doping. Every other doper has been suspended by their team...not Dawg though. So much for Team Sky anti doping stance.

BTW you are correct on one point, Dawgs participation in cycling was certainly "protected" by Cooksons UCI...mate
 
Dec 22, 2017
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There was an Al Jazeera documentary this week about sports doping. A fair portion was about how doped track and field athletes had to pay bribes in order to race.

In cycling its called a 'Sysmex'
 
Sep 27, 2017
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Re: Re:

Alpe73 said:
sittingbison said:
Dawg arguing a technicality...and being let off...will do more harm for the sport than if he pleaded guilty any got 9 months.

As to the USG, it was 20C, 4 hours, and Dawg kicked **** rather than suffering badly (dehydrated). His USG would be totally normal. If there was ANYTHING that could have been argued in the THREE MONTHS BETWEEN being notified and the leak, it would have been to make it go away. It's only because he doesn't have an excuse that it is now public, and he is lawyered up.

Remember, Lance got a TUE for saddle sore cream ;)

What a load of UTTER RUBBISH !!! What dream world are you living in, mate?

Chris Froome is an employee of Team Sky. He is under contract and, as such, has obligations towards his employer.
His participation in professional cycling races is governed by and protected by the UCI. He has every right under the rules to seek exoneration in relation to the AAF, including hiring expensive lawyers to help him and Team Sky with the case. If he is unsuccessful and receives a particular sanction, so be it. No complaints from me.

The best thing for cycling, in the minds of the majority of cycling fans, is that (an exonerated) Dawg lines up at the Giro. Reigning champ of the Giro, Tommy Du vs Dawg ... could be one of the best duels in years!!! It could be epic. Maybe Tommy will give Froome a good kicking. Now wouldn't that be sweet! :p

This exactly; Tom Dumoulin, golden boy and future of clean cycling ( :D ) lining up against the evil Chris Froome. Now that's the kind of *** people pay good money to see....
 
Jul 3, 2014
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sittingbison said:
Dawgs obligation to his employer is to not dope let alone get caught doping. Every other doper has been suspended by their team...not Dawg though. So much for Team Sky anti doping stance.

BTW you are correct on one point, Dawgs participation in cycling was certainly "protected" by Cooksons UCI...mate

A couple of points - not sure if EVERY rider has been suspended on immediate AAF. Cant remember the specifics for Berty but he definitely carried on riding (I'm sure there are others both ways). Also, Froome has been caught on an AAF for which the UCI rule is not immediate suspension - if it was EPO then there would be no leg for Sky to stand on.
 
Mar 7, 2017
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Merckx index said:
I thought CAS decisions had to be made public? If the rider can choose not to have it made public, why would they allow it to go public when they lose the decision? What did Contador or Petacchi, e.g., have to gain by having everyone able to see how their arguments were rebutted?

The distinction is whether the athlete is found guilty

If found guilty then the CAS judgement is automatically published. If found not guilty the athlete can choose whether to publish the CAS judgement. And you'd have to assume that in all cases an athlete found not guilty would choose not to publish. Especially if there's been no leak of their case to that point

See here for Matt Lawton on Armitstead refusing to publish her CAS judgement - and the negative impact of that on anti-doping efforts:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4497464/Lizzie-Armitstead-s-inclusion-Rio-stays-unexplained.html

"The controversial decision to let cyclist Lizzie Armitstead compete at last summer’s Olympics looks likely to remain unexplained after publication of the ‘reasoned’ ruling was blocked.

Sources have told this newspaper that UK Anti-Doping (UKAD) and the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) would support publication of the ‘reasoned decision’ that explains why the first of Deignan’s three failures was struck from her record on a technicality.

It is understood UKAD would like to use the report for training purposes, given the doping control officer was deemed not to have tried hard enough to make contact with Deignan at her hotel in Sweden on August 20, 2015.

For the global anti-doping community, it is an important case given what appears to have been a heavy burden of proof on the officer. CAS are also thought to consider it important to publish their report in the public interest.

A CAS spokesman confirmed that only with the agreement of all parties can they publish their decision and sources believe it is the Deignan camp who have blocked its release."
 
Jul 27, 2010
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Haz, my understanding is that an athlete can request that a case go directly to CAS. There is no need to wait for a WADA decision.

Any individual or legal entity with capacity to act may have recourse to the services of the CAS. These include athletes, clubs, sports federations, organisers of sports events, sponsors or television companies.

For a dispute to be submitted to arbitration by the CAS, the parties must agree to this in writing.

So I guess WADA or UCI could refuse to go along, but I doubt very much that they would. Unless Froome failed the lab test (and appealed) or WADA thought he would fail it, and they wanted the suspension to stand, without giving Froome a chance to have it reversed.

But this passage doesn't make sense to me. Suppose an athlete wins a case at the level of national federation, e.g., as Contador did. If WADA/UCI appealed to CAS, what incentive would he have to agree to the appeal? What could he possibly have to gain?

And from the WADA code:

Article 8.5 contains a provision that allows an ADO and an Athlete or Athlete Support Personnel to have an ADRV matter determined by the CAS at a single hearing. All parties to the case must agree to this, as well as the relevant IF and WADA...The advantage lies in the potential cost savings, especially if the nature of the case is such that the need for ultimate resolution by the CAS is clear
.
https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/wada_guidelines_results_management_hearings_decisions_2014_v1.0_en.pdf
Also note:

The ordinary procedure lasts between 6 and 12 months.

I read somewhere else that they could do it within four months, but the longer time frame seems more consistent with history. Contador’s case took nearly a year to resolve following the WADA/UCI appeal. Petacchi's decision was awarded almost exactly a year to the date of his positive test. Both sides generally spend several months preparing their case, and after everything has been submitted, CAS has to set a date for the aribters to meet, and then it can be a lengthy process to reach a decision.

This being so, a CAS decision almost certainly can't be reached before the Giro begins. This definitely affects strategy, and now makes it more understandable to me why, assuming the USG can't help Froome, there's a delay. Froome's team might be trying to figure out a way to resolve the case in his favor without passing a lab test. They might also be mulling over the wisdom of going directly to CAS, knowing full well that it will mean the case will probably not be resolved even before the end of the Tour. Assuming Froome can't pass the lab test or get off on the basis of the USG, they might also be trying to reach a deal where Froome is suspended, but returns in time for the Giro. The one thing they don't want at this point is a suspension that goes beyond the Giro, because even if he appeals and wins, it will be too late.

The ordinary arbitration procedure is confidential. The parties, arbitrators and CAS staff are obliged not to disclose any information connected with the dispute. In principle, awards are not published.

So it seems that win or lose, the proceedings don’t have to be made public. That’s depressing.

http://www.tas-cas.org/en/general-information/frequently-asked-questions.html

John S, while of course one would think Froome has to respond to the AAF within some fixed period of time, all the discussion I’ve seen in the media is that there is no time period. He can basically stall as long as he wants to and can withstand the pressure from, among others, the organizers of the Giro and the Tour. Remember that about a week ago, Prudhomme said it was urgent that Froome resolve the case as soon as possible. He didn’t refer to any fixed date by which time Froome had to do so.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Merckx index said:
John S, while of course one would think Froome has to respond to the AAF within some fixed period of time, all the discussion I’ve seen in the media is that there is no time period. He can basically stall as long as he wants to and can withstand the pressure from, among others, the organizers of the Giro and the Tour. Remember that about a week ago, Prudhomme said it was urgent that Froome resolve the case as soon as possible. He didn’t refer to any fixed date by which time Froome had to do so.

I went through the WADA code today and there was a provision (sorry, didn't note the exact clause number) that if there is a delay between AAF and hearing that WADA can demand that it get taken up by the CAS. I do know that the Canadian implementation of the WADA code states that it's 45 days or less from AAF to hearing, but I found it excruciatingly difficult to find, let alone translate the Spanish implementation of the code. I'm super curious to see if they also mandate a max delay. Three months is already an awfully long time.

John Swanson
 
Apr 30, 2011
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TheSpud said:
sittingbison said:
Dawgs obligation to his employer is to not dope let alone get caught doping. Every other doper has been suspended by their team...not Dawg though. So much for Team Sky anti doping stance.

BTW you are correct on one point, Dawgs participation in cycling was certainly "protected" by Cooksons UCI...mate

A couple of points - not sure if EVERY rider has been suspended on immediate AAF. Cant remember the specifics for Berty but he definitely carried on riding (I'm sure there are others both ways). Also, Froome has been caught on an AAF for which the UCI rule is not immediate suspension - if it was EPO then there would be no leg for Sky to stand on.
Contador was suspended and wasn't free to race after the Tour '10 until he was cleared the following year.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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ScienceIsCool said:
I went through the WADA code today and there was a provision (sorry, didn't note the exact clause number) that if there is a delay between AAF and hearing that WADA can demand that it get taken up by the CAS. I do know that the Canadian implementation of the WADA code states that it's 45 days or less from AAF to hearing, but I found it excruciatingly difficult to find, let alone translate the Spanish implementation of the code. I'm super curious to see if they also mandate a max delay. Three months is already an awfully long time.

Yes, article 13.3. However, note this is in the comments to that article:

Comment to Article 13.3: Given the different circumstances of each anti-doping rule violation investigation and results management process, it is not feasible to establish a fixed time period for an Anti-Doping Organization to render a decision before WADA may intervene by appealing directly to CAS. Before taking such action, however, WADA will consult with the Anti-Doping Organization and give the Anti-Doping Organization an opportunity to explain why it has not yet rendered a decision. Nothing in this Article prohibits an International Federation from also having rules which authorize it to assume jurisdiction for matters in which the results management performed by one of its National Federations has been inappropriately delayed.

Also, this is from WADA guidelines, 2014:

5.2. The hearing process shall be conducted as soon as possible after the notification of the asserted ADRV to the Athlete or other Person…Any process delay is potentially harmful to the sport and the fight against doping and may lead WADA to refer the case directly to CAS at the RMA’s cost (Code Article 13.3).

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/wada_guidelines_results_management_hearings_decisions_2014_v1.0_en.pdf

So another possible scenario is that WADA is pushing Froome/ADA to resolve the case, but withholding the threat of taking it to CAS, because if they do that, Froome can ride the Giro/Tour while in limbo.

Also, AEPSAD was ruled non-compliant by WADA for about a year, and was just reinstated this past March. The Madrid lab remained unaccredited until the end of April. I wonder if because of these problems, Spain just doesn't have any provision regarding how soon a hearing must take place following an AAF. And just to be clear, we don't know when the AAF was determined, since it would begin with the B sample test. I assume it would not be long after the A sample, but we don't have a date. FWIW, Contador had his B sample tested seventeen days after he was notified of the A sample positive.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2017-04/wada-reinstates-the-madrid-laboratory

However, are you sure the Spanish federation would prosecute Froome? Wouldn't it be Froome's federation, the UK I presume? When Contador tested positive, it was in France (near Spain, but in France as I understand it), but the initial case against him was brought by the Spanish federation, RFEC. AEPSAD submitted documents to the hearing, but WADA and UCI didn't (they were invited to, but declined for various reasons), and certainly the French ADA did not, other than, presumably, making available the original report. In fact, the CB test was carried out in a lab in Germany, and that country, too, was not involved in the RFEC decision.

Anyway, I could find nothing at UKAD about how soon after an AAF a hearing has to be held. There is this:

provided that if the Athlete or other Person wishes to exercise his/her right to a hearing, he/she must submit a written request for such a hearing so that it is received by UKAD as soon as possible, but in any event within 10 days of the Athlete’s or other Person’s receipt of the Notice of Charge

But note that the Notice of Charge is sent following the A sample test but prior to the B sample test, so it seems the athlete must make a decision about having a hearing before confirmation of the A sample.

If the B sample analysis confirms (or is deemed to confirm) the Adverse Analytical Finding in respect of the A sample, then…the matter shall proceed to a hearing as set out in Article 8.

https://www.sportresolutions.co.uk/uploads/related-documents/Final_2015_UK_Anti_Doping_Rules_November_2014.PDF
 
Dec 27, 2012
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Netserk said:
TheSpud said:
sittingbison said:
Dawgs obligation to his employer is to not dope let alone get caught doping. Every other doper has been suspended by their team...not Dawg though. So much for Team Sky anti doping stance.

BTW you are correct on one point, Dawgs participation in cycling was certainly "protected" by Cooksons UCI...mate

A couple of points - not sure if EVERY rider has been suspended on immediate AAF. Cant remember the specifics for Berty but he definitely carried on riding (I'm sure there are others both ways). Also, Froome has been caught on an AAF for which the UCI rule is not immediate suspension - if it was EPO then there would be no leg for Sky to stand on.
Contador was suspended and wasn't free to race after the Tour '10 until he was cleared the following year.

Talk about what happened to others, what MPCC feels should happen to Froome, what should happen to Froome in light of Sky's public stance on (anti) doping ... and what the Clinic think should happen to Froome ... is fairly irrelevant. Sky's decision not to voluntarily suspend Froome may hurt Team brand, but I'm sure they've done the calculations in assuming that risk.

I would respectfully suggest that some posters, seemingly, don't possess the required tolerance for the business machinations of pro sport, vis a vis a particular team protecting its investment. Tolerance of uncertainty is another valuable attribute for those interfacing with pro cycling. Are they doping?/are they not?/we'll have to wait and see.

The sport's not going to die on the operating table.
 
Dec 22, 2017
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Re: Re:

Alpe73 said:
Netserk said:
TheSpud said:
sittingbison said:
Dawgs obligation to his employer is to not dope let alone get caught doping. Every other doper has been suspended by their team...not Dawg though. So much for Team Sky anti doping stance.

BTW you are correct on one point, Dawgs participation in cycling was certainly "protected" by Cooksons UCI...mate

A couple of points - not sure if EVERY rider has been suspended on immediate AAF. Cant remember the specifics for Berty but he definitely carried on riding (I'm sure there are others both ways). Also, Froome has been caught on an AAF for which the UCI rule is not immediate suspension - if it was EPO then there would be no leg for Sky to stand on.
Contador was suspended and wasn't free to race after the Tour '10 until he was cleared the following year.

Talk about what happened to others, what MPCC feels should happen to Froome, what should happen to Froome in light of Sky's public stance on (anti) doping ... and what the Clinic think should happen to Froome ... is fairly irrelevant. Sky's decision not to voluntarily suspend Froome may hurt Team brand, but I'm sure they've done the calculations in assuming that risk.

I would respectfully suggest that some posters, seemingly, don't possess the required tolerance for the business machinations of pro sport, vis a vis a particular team protecting its investment. Tolerance of uncertainty is another valuable attribute for those interfacing with pro cycling. Are they doping?/are they not?/we'll have to wait and see.

The sport's not going to die on the operating table.

Ah, but we've entered a new era of cycling. The clean era. A new kind of omèrta to go with it too, the anti-omèrta. Froome must go under that bus....which, by the way, is on its way.

Nibali for Tour champion 2018? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
 
Jul 3, 2014
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Netserk said:
TheSpud said:
sittingbison said:
Dawgs obligation to his employer is to not dope let alone get caught doping. Every other doper has been suspended by their team...not Dawg though. So much for Team Sky anti doping stance.

BTW you are correct on one point, Dawgs participation in cycling was certainly "protected" by Cooksons UCI...mate

A couple of points - not sure if EVERY rider has been suspended on immediate AAF. Cant remember the specifics for Berty but he definitely carried on riding (I'm sure there are others both ways). Also, Froome has been caught on an AAF for which the UCI rule is not immediate suspension - if it was EPO then there would be no leg for Sky to stand on.
Contador was suspended and wasn't free to race after the Tour '10 until he was cleared the following year.

I stand corrected - he was indeed initially banned
 

thehog

BANNED
Jul 27, 2009
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Re: Re:

TheSpud said:
sittingbison said:
Dawgs obligation to his employer is to not dope let alone get caught doping. Every other doper has been suspended by their team...not Dawg though. So much for Team Sky anti doping stance.

BTW you are correct on one point, Dawgs participation in cycling was certainly "protected" by Cooksons UCI...mate

A couple of points - not sure if EVERY rider has been suspended on immediate AAF. Cant remember the specifics for Berty but he definitely carried on riding (I'm sure there are others both ways). Also, Froome has been caught on an AAF for which the UCI rule is not immediate suspension - if it was EPO then there would be no leg for Sky to stand on.

Contador was cleared by the Spanish cycling federation so he lawfully continued riding after the verdict. The UCI then appealed the decision and took it to CAS. He continued to ride whilst waiting for that hearing to take place many months later. Years later in Cookson’s independent reform report it suggested Contador should not have been suspended as due process was not followed. If only Contador has a Spanish head of the UCI, they could have done a rule change on the fly like Cookson has done for Froome.
 
Jul 5, 2012
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
TheSpud said:
sittingbison said:
Dawgs obligation to his employer is to not dope let alone get caught doping. Every other doper has been suspended by their team...not Dawg though. So much for Team Sky anti doping stance.

BTW you are correct on one point, Dawgs participation in cycling was certainly "protected" by Cooksons UCI...mate

A couple of points - not sure if EVERY rider has been suspended on immediate AAF. Cant remember the specifics for Berty but he definitely carried on riding (I'm sure there are others both ways). Also, Froome has been caught on an AAF for which the UCI rule is not immediate suspension - if it was EPO then there would be no leg for Sky to stand on.

Contador was cleared by the Spanish cycling federation so he lawfully continued riding after the verdict. The UCI then appealed the decision and took it to CAS. He continued to ride whilst waiting for that hearing to take place many months later. Years later in Cookson’s independent reform report it suggested Contador should not have been suspended as due process was not followed. If only Contador has a Spanish head of the UCI, they could have done a rule change on the fly like Cookson has done for Froome.

Good work hog

Soooo, end result being that the Giro was made a laughingstock by having a rider "under a cloud" being stripped after "winning" the event.

It's not like the Giro wouldn't welcome a similar situation with dawg... indeed let him trouser a cool 2 million quid appearance money.

Nothing to see here, move along
 
Jul 5, 2012
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Re: Re:

Alpe73 said:
Netserk said:
TheSpud said:
sittingbison said:
Dawgs obligation to his employer is to not dope let alone get caught doping. Every other doper has been suspended by their team...not Dawg though. So much for Team Sky anti doping stance.

BTW you are correct on one point, Dawgs participation in cycling was certainly "protected" by Cooksons UCI...mate

A couple of points - not sure if EVERY rider has been suspended on immediate AAF. Cant remember the specifics for Berty but he definitely carried on riding (I'm sure there are others both ways). Also, Froome has been caught on an AAF for which the UCI rule is not immediate suspension - if it was EPO then there would be no leg for Sky to stand on.
Contador was suspended and wasn't free to race after the Tour '10 until he was cleared the following year.

Talk about what happened to others, what MPCC feels should happen to Froome, what should happen to Froome in light of Sky's public stance on (anti) doping ... and what the Clinic think should happen to Froome ... is fairly irrelevant. Sky's decision not to voluntarily suspend Froome may hurt Team brand, but I'm sure they've done the calculations in assuming that risk.

I would respectfully suggest that some posters, seemingly, don't possess the required tolerance for the business machinations of pro sport, vis a vis a particular team protecting its investment. Tolerance of uncertainty is another valuable attribute for those interfacing with pro cycling. Are they doping?/are they not?/we'll have to wait and see.

The sport's not going to die on the operating table.

Lol. They are not meant to "do calculation of risk" they have trumpeted from the get go they are honest British cleans and Johnny Foreigners are filthy doping scum

BTW, why are you sure? Are you involved with Sky?
 
Jul 3, 2014
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Re: Re:

sittingbison said:
thehog said:
TheSpud said:
sittingbison said:
Dawgs obligation to his employer is to not dope let alone get caught doping. Every other doper has been suspended by their team...not Dawg though. So much for Team Sky anti doping stance.

BTW you are correct on one point, Dawgs participation in cycling was certainly "protected" by Cooksons UCI...mate

A couple of points - not sure if EVERY rider has been suspended on immediate AAF. Cant remember the specifics for Berty but he definitely carried on riding (I'm sure there are others both ways). Also, Froome has been caught on an AAF for which the UCI rule is not immediate suspension - if it was EPO then there would be no leg for Sky to stand on.

Contador was cleared by the Spanish cycling federation so he lawfully continued riding after the verdict. The UCI then appealed the decision and took it to CAS. He continued to ride whilst waiting for that hearing to take place many months later. Years later in Cookson’s independent reform report it suggested Contador should not have been suspended as due process was not followed. If only Contador has a Spanish head of the UCI, they could have done a rule change on the fly like Cookson has done for Froome.

Good work hog

Soooo, end result being that the Giro was made a laughingstock by having a rider "under a cloud" being stripped after "winning" the event.

It's not like the Giro wouldn't welcome a similar situation with dawg... indeed let him trouser a cool 2 million quid appearance money.

Nothing to see here, move along

Maybe a case of no such thing as bad publicity.

Wonder if they'd still give him the $2m if he was subsequently banned?
 

thehog

BANNED
Jul 27, 2009
31,285
2
22,485
Re: Re:

TheSpud said:
sittingbison said:
thehog said:
TheSpud said:
sittingbison said:
Dawgs obligation to his employer is to not dope let alone get caught doping. Every other doper has been suspended by their team...not Dawg though. So much for Team Sky anti doping stance.

BTW you are correct on one point, Dawgs participation in cycling was certainly "protected" by Cooksons UCI...mate

A couple of points - not sure if EVERY rider has been suspended on immediate AAF. Cant remember the specifics for Berty but he definitely carried on riding (I'm sure there are others both ways). Also, Froome has been caught on an AAF for which the UCI rule is not immediate suspension - if it was EPO then there would be no leg for Sky to stand on.

Contador was cleared by the Spanish cycling federation so he lawfully continued riding after the verdict. The UCI then appealed the decision and took it to CAS. He continued to ride whilst waiting for that hearing to take place many months later. Years later in Cookson’s independent reform report it suggested Contador should not have been suspended as due process was not followed. If only Contador has a Spanish head of the UCI, they could have done a rule change on the fly like Cookson has done for Froome.

Good work hog

Soooo, end result being that the Giro was made a laughingstock by having a rider "under a cloud" being stripped after "winning" the event.

It's not like the Giro wouldn't welcome a similar situation with dawg... indeed let him trouser a cool 2 million quid appearance money.

Nothing to see here, move along

Maybe a case of no such thing as bad publicity.

Wonder if they'd still give him the $2m if he was subsequently banned?

The rules have changed since the Contador suspension. The (independent) CADF now handles postive tests rather than the federation. Froome will be cleared or suspended by March. With the rule change it looks like Froome will be cleared with no appeal to CAS by the UCI as they would be appealing against themselves.
 
Feb 16, 2010
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The Italian state has just slapped a tax on cyclists
- to do any sort of race on public roads amateur included - from early January
each rider has to have a bike card at the price of 25 euro a year.
That could should help to cover Froome's pot.
Yet I guess the $2m is put up by the israeli's and
behind the closed doors
they will have the final say on Froome participation.
If the Israeli stages falls through due to politics
there's a plan B to start the Giro in Puglia instead
probably without a pot for CF.
 
May 11, 2013
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Re: Re:

The rules have changed since the Contador suspension. The (independent) CADF now handles postive tests rather than the federation. Froome will be cleared or suspended by March. With the rule change it looks like Froome will be cleared with no appeal to CAS by the UCI as they would be appealing against themselves.

Actually it's LADS who handles the positives after being informed by CADF, which is UCI Legal Anti-Doping Services, a specialised unit independent from UCI management. Froome asked for B sample to be analysed which was also positive and now LADS offered the rider the opportunity to provide an explanation. When Froome will come up with the dehydration and whatever but maintain that he took only the legal amount and somehow his alien body excreted a higher amount of salbutamol than ingested, LADS will offer him an "Acceptance of Consequences". If Le Dawg refuses this the matter is referred to the UCI Anti-Doping Tribunal for adjudication. This Tribunal was set up in 2015, until then the cases were delegated to National Federations as in Contador's case. This tribunal will decide whether the rider committed an anti-doping violation and the sanctions. Decisions can be appealed to CAS by the rider, the UCI, UKAD as well as WADA.