All About Salbutamol

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What will the verdict in Froome's salbutamol case?

  • He will be cleared

    Votes: 43 34.1%
  • 3 month ban

    Votes: 4 3.2%
  • 6 month ban

    Votes: 15 11.9%
  • 9 month ban

    Votes: 24 19.0%
  • 1 year ban

    Votes: 16 12.7%
  • 2 year ban

    Votes: 21 16.7%
  • 4 year ban

    Votes: 3 2.4%

  • Total voters
    126

rick james

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Cloxxki said:
Getting close to my usual summer asthma season and still breathing freely. Went for a group run today, 12-13kph, 98kg dry. Untrained other than relatively tame bike communiting.

What do you asthma wussies do to aleviate symptoms without going for the lazy drugger's first choice?
Well that’s good for you, I can tell you that my asthma makes my lungs tight and mixed with hey fever right now any time I do a steep climb the airwaves in my throat feel compressed....now my post like yours shows nothing on what the dawg does but it good to share and it shows asthma affect everyone differently...so carry on
 
Apr 20, 2012
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rick james said:
Cloxxki said:
Getting close to my usual summer asthma season and still breathing freely. Went for a group run today, 12-13kph, 98kg dry. Untrained other than relatively tame bike communiting.

What do you asthma wussies do to aleviate symptoms without going for the lazy drugger's first choice?
Well that’s good for you, I can tell you that my asthma makes my lungs tight and mixed with hey fever right now any time I do a steep climb the airwaves in my throws feel compressed....now my post like yours shows nothing on what the dawg does but it good to share and it shows asthma affect everyone differently...so carry on
Rick, are you suggesting everybody reacts differently to drugs? I'll be damned, didnt know that.

Cyclists, sporters will do anything to enhance their performance, even if salbutamol with no TUE requered gives you a 0.25% performance gain they will use it. High on wanting to perform better and better. It will not turn a donkey into a racehorse.

Very informative read, specially MI.
 

thehog

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Jul 27, 2009
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Merckx index said:
Froome’s argument, as far as I can tell, hinges on a claim that a) peak urinary salbutamol levels occur within one hour of inhaling the substance (Heuberger’s theoretical model); and b) he inhaled the maximally allowed amount of 800 ug within one hour of the finish on stage 18, where he tested positive. With regard to a), the model estimates that roughly 7-8% of the time that 800 ug is inhaled (my estimate from the figures Heuberger actually published) within one hour of providing a sample, the concentration in the urine will exceed the 1430 ng/ml value that is Froome’s 2000 ng/ml, corrected for a urine specific gravity of 1.028. I’ve already pointed out that the studies that look at salbutamol concentrations at this time don’t support this, but let’s ignore this for the moment, to follow the rest of the argument.

With regard to b), Froome has claimed he took 2-3 puffs after the stage was over. He would further have to argue that he took 5-6 puffs within an hour of the end of the stage. If you look at the stage, it wasn’t considered that difficult. There was a steep climb at the finish, but it was fairly short, not a typical long climb that might result in large time gaps between contenders. In fact, an hour from the finish, Froome was almost to the top of a preceding climb, and after that, there was a long descent, followed by a gradual climb, and finally the short, steep climb at the end. So it would not appear to be the kind of stage that would require an unusual amount of salbutamol, given that he has said he only takes it during “great efforts”. He did imply, of course, that he suffered an unusually severe attack that day, but even if we accept this, it doesn’t suggest that he would have taken 5-6 puffs in the final hour, as opposed, e.g., to taking some of it earlier in the race.

But let’s assume he did. Now I pointed out that there are several studies indicating that inhaling 800 ug, followed by providing a sample one hour later, does not in fact result in the high levels claimed by Heuberger, et al. But Froome himself might be used to test this notion. If he generally takes salbutamol only during “great efforts”, one would expect his highest urinary salbutamol levels would come following mountain top finishes. Not only would they require the greatest efforts, but since they come at the end of the stage, they would soon be followed by providing a sample. The inhaled drug would be at peak concentration, and because the finish is so close, he presumably wouldn’t be urinating, which would reduce the concentration in a subsequent sample.

How many such finishes has Froome recorded? Looking just at the six GTs that he has won, I counted 32 mountain top finishes which he either won and/or completed while in the leader’s jersey, which would ensure he would be tested. I would think that in many if not all of those finishes, he would take a substantial amount of salbutamol within an hour or two of being tested. If the variation is as great as Heuberger claims, some of those samples ought to have pretty high salbutamol levels. Maybe Froome never took 800 ug before, but the model is certainly capable of predicting the pattern of variation expected from a fewer amount of puffs. But it doesn’t appear that the variation was that great. Not only has Froome never exceeded the decision limit for salbutamol before—unless he somehow was able to convince UCI that there was an innocent explanation—but IIRC, it was reported that none of his other Vuelta samples exceeded 600 ng/ml.

So though I would have to see more data, I’m guessing that Froome’s own samples are not going to support the model very well. If they don’t, then along with the published studies—not to mention the theoretical problems with Heuberger’s study—I don’t see how the argument will succeed. An argument based on large variation has to show more than one outlier.

I would also add that he attacked on the final climb as well, so clearly feeling well rather than just surviving battling his asthma.
 

rick james

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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
rick james said:
Cloxxki said:
Getting close to my usual summer asthma season and still breathing freely. Went for a group run today, 12-13kph, 98kg dry. Untrained other than relatively tame bike communiting.

What do you asthma wussies do to aleviate symptoms without going for the lazy drugger's first choice?
Well that’s good for you, I can tell you that my asthma makes my lungs tight and mixed with hey fever right now any time I do a steep climb the airwaves in my throws feel compressed....now my post like yours shows nothing on what the dawg does but it good to share and it shows asthma affect everyone differently...so carry on
Rick, are you suggesting everybody reacts differently to drugs? I'll be damned, didnt know that.

Cyclists, sporters will do anything to enhance their performance, even if salbutamol with no TUE requered gives you a 0.25% performance gain they will use it. High on wanting to perform better and better. It will not turn a donkey into a racehorse.

Very informative read, specially MI.


no I'm sating asthma doesn't affect everyone the same way.....But I can also confirm my marginal gain of a diet of Curry and beer doesn't work
 
Nov 5, 2013
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rick james said:
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
rick james said:
Cloxxki said:
Getting close to my usual summer asthma season and still breathing freely. Went for a group run today, 12-13kph, 98kg dry. Untrained other than relatively tame bike communiting.

What do you asthma wussies do to aleviate symptoms without going for the lazy drugger's first choice?
Well that’s good for you, I can tell you that my asthma makes my lungs tight and mixed with hey fever right now any time I do a steep climb the airwaves in my throws feel compressed....now my post like yours shows nothing on what the dawg does but it good to share and it shows asthma affect everyone differently...so carry on
Rick, are you suggesting everybody reacts differently to drugs? I'll be damned, didnt know that.

Cyclists, sporters will do anything to enhance their performance, even if salbutamol with no TUE requered gives you a 0.25% performance gain they will use it. High on wanting to perform better and better. It will not turn a donkey into a racehorse.

Very informative read, specially MI.


no I'm sating asthma doesn't affect everyone the same way.....But I can also confirm my marginal gain of a diet of Curry and beer doesn't work

Go get Badzilla, that was Chris' first marginal gain...
 
Nov 5, 2013
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Re:

rick james said:
weird, thought it was sand shoes

It was being born in Kenya. That's why he had to hold motorbikes early in his career. Kenya...and Badzilla...and asthma...and poor competition...and not being on a sophisticated doping program.
 

thehog

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Re: Re:

ChewbaccaDefense said:
rick james said:
weird, thought it was sand shoes

It was being born in Kenya. That's why he had to hold motorbikes early in his career. Kenya...and Badzilla...and asthma...and poor competition...and not being on a sophisticated doping program.

No, no. Walsh said the climb to Finestre reminded him of the unpaved roads in Nairobi so it was an advantage :p
 
Nov 5, 2013
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thehog said:
ChewbaccaDefense said:
rick james said:
weird, thought it was sand shoes

It was being born in Kenya. That's why he had to hold motorbikes early in his career. Kenya...and Badzilla...and asthma...and poor competition...and not being on a sophisticated doping program.

No, no. Walsh said the climb to Finestre reminded him of the unpaved roads in Nairobi so it was an advantage :p

I stand corrected. It was hard to understand what Walsh was saying, with Brailsford's manhood occupying his mouth.
 

rick james

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Re: Re:

thehog said:
ChewbaccaDefense said:
rick james said:
weird, thought it was sand shoes

It was being born in Kenya. That's why he had to hold motorbikes early in his career. Kenya...and Badzilla...and asthma...and poor competition...and not being on a sophisticated doping program.

No, no. Walsh said the climb to Finestre reminded him of the unpaved roads in Nairobi so it was an advantage :p
Maybe it did
 
Mar 19, 2009
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We had an early summer here, but my 1st week of June summer astma (tree pollen) hasn't shown up yet. I keep using Vitamine E until I get significant symptoms again. Wish I could say I'm feeling better due to drinking less, eating better, healthier weight, but none of that has been the case. Just free lungs, even through last week's inflammation of the throat.
 

CTQ

Mar 12, 2016
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
ChewbaccaDefense said:
rick james said:
weird, thought it was sand shoes

It was being born in Kenya. That's why he had to hold motorbikes early in his career. Kenya...and Badzilla...and asthma...and poor competition...and not being on a sophisticated doping program.

No, no. Walsh said the climb to Finestre reminded him of the unpaved roads in Nairobi so it was an advantage :p


But Froome said this: “. The gravel road reminds me of riding in Africa '' so it could be South Africa too.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/may/25/chris-froome-solo-pink-jersey-giro-ditalia-stage-for-the-ages-cycling
 
Mar 19, 2009
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100kg or thereabouts. Very much out of the running game.
Not even a runner really, I raced MTB and cyclocross when I was younger. And 81kg.
Now 41 y/o.
My super talented mid distance running group does a 3600m warm-up in around 17 min, 13 kph.
My fat asthmatic ass can hang on and even exchange a few words during, in my prime asthma season, NO DRUGS.

One could say it's a coincidence I lost my symptoms the very week I had started on Vit E (despite some articles on the correlation). I'm going with it as long as it works. And may even double down when it stops working, get myself the proper form of Vit E as apparently I'm taking the (cheap) wrong variety.
 
Mar 24, 2013
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I wish 2-3 riders will be tested positive on Salbutamol this TDF so the fun can continue.
 

rick james

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SKSemtex said:
I wish 2-3 riders will be tested positive on Salbutamol this TDF so the fun can continue.
but you'll never hear about it, we only heard about this case because it was Froome...
 
Mar 29, 2016
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http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-froome-salbutamol-case-decision-is-a-big-moment-for-cycling/
“We said at the outset that there are complex medical and physiological issues which affect the metabolism and excretion of Salbutamol. The same individual can exhibit significant variations in test results taken over multiple days while using exactly the same amount of Salbutamol. This means that the level of Salbutamol in a single urine sample, alone, is not a reliable indicator of the amount inhaled.

“A review of all Chris’s 21 test results from the Vuelta revealed that the Stage 18 result was within his expected range of variation and therefore consistent with him having taken a permitted dose of Salbutamol.”

Do n't suppose we'll ever see those other sample results. So somehow his double the limit was only 19% ? Sky were the ones (not the UCI) who went out with the 2,000 nanograms per millilitre (ng/ml) figure.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Robert5091 said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-froome-salbutamol-case-decision-is-a-big-moment-for-cycling/
“We said at the outset that there are complex medical and physiological issues which affect the metabolism and excretion of Salbutamol. The same individual can exhibit significant variations in test results taken over multiple days while using exactly the same amount of Salbutamol. This means that the level of Salbutamol in a single urine sample, alone, is not a reliable indicator of the amount inhaled.

“A review of all Chris’s 21 test results from the Vuelta revealed that the Stage 18 result was within his expected range of variation and therefore consistent with him having taken a permitted dose of Salbutamol.”

Do n't suppose we'll ever see those other sample results. So somehow his double the limit was only 19% ? Sky were the ones (not the UCI) who went out with the 2,000 nanograms per millilitre (ng/ml) figure.

Indeed and I think they have gone for 19% of the trigger amount of 1200 as opposed to the actual limit (1000). Otherwise the reading would be 43% above....sounds a bit worse right enough, not like SKY to seek to seek to mislead :D :D
 
Jul 27, 2010
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So I guess the only thing remaining is to see if Froome has the balls to allow the decision to be published (he says it will be).There is already one glaring contradiction in the tiny amount of information that has been released, viz.,that Froome's level was within the variation expected on the basis of his other samples. It was reported previously that none of these samples exceeded 600 ng/ml. Even if they were 800-900, 2000 one time is not within variation.

I have posted extensively before on the problems with the Heuberger study, on which this decision almost certainly was based, and in particular the dozens of samples that contradict the model. Unless there was some interaction with another drug in his system, or some other weird factor going on, I am quite confident this decision is a sham. But I will have to wait for the supposed release of details before saying more. I really, really, really hope that Petacchi and other riders sanctioned for salbutamol file suit against WADA/UCI. This statement alone begs a lawsuit from every sanctioned athete:

the level of salbutamol in a single urine sample, alone, is not a reliable indicator of the amount inhaled.

From CN:

Robin Parisotto is a leading anti-doping expert and previously worked as part of the Cycling Anti-Doping Foundation's Biological Passport programme, which tested professional cyclists. He has previously voiced concerns over the integrity of anti-doping bodies such as WADA and he believes that the decision to clear Froome without providing any evidence lacks credibility and only undermines the sport of cycling.

"I'm quite bemused and it's hard to comprehend how a salbutamol level that high could not constitute an AAF," Parisotto told Cyclingnews from his home in Australia.

"The major sporting organisations, WADA, the IAAF, FIFA… it's a bad record that keeps being played because whenever they're faced with major scandals it's more a case of management to minimize the fallout and bad exposure. They don't think about hitting the problem head-on and telling the cheats that they mean business," he said.

"I don't know if it's a case of whether some athletes have become too big to fail or the sporting organisations are timid in trying to challenge their cases for fear of losing face or finances, but at this point in time it seems that if you have the wherewithal, the resources and the level of exposure then you can challenge any decision at the moment and get away with it."

If the details are released in a few days, debate over them should overshadow the Tour, and may well continue throughout the Tour, making the situation even worse if Froome had ridden without being cleared.
 

thehog

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Merckx index said:
So I guess the only thing remaining is to see if Froome has the balls to allow the decision to be published (he says it will be).There is already one glaring contradiction in the tiny amount of information that has been released, viz.,that Froome's level was within the variation expected on the basis of his other samples. It was reported previously that none of these samples exceeded 600 ng/ml. Even if they were 800-900, 2000 one time is not within variation.

I have posted extensively before on the problems with the Heuberger study, on which this decision almost certainly was based, and in particular the dozens of samples that contradict the model. Unless there was some interaction with another drug in his system, or some other weird factor going on, I am quite confident this decision is a sham. But I will have to wait for the supposed release of details before saying more. I really, really, really hope that Petacchi and other riders sanctioned for salbutamol file suit against WADA/UCI. That might be the only way to force them to publish their reasoning in this case.

This statement alone begs a lawsuit from every sanctioned athete:

the level of salbutamol in a single urine sample, alone, is not a reliable indicator of the amount inhaled.

From CN:

Robin Parisotto is a leading anti-doping expert and previously worked as part of the Cycling Anti-Doping Foundation's Biological Passport programme, which tested professional cyclists. He has previously voiced concerns over the integrity of anti-doping bodies such as WADA and he believes that the decision to clear Froome without providing any evidence lacks credibility and only undermines the sport of cycling.

"I'm quite bemused and it's hard to comprehend how a salbutamol level that high could not constitute an AAF," Parisotto told Cyclingnews from his home in Australia.

Which now means all athletes including Froome can use as much Salbutamol as possible?
 
Mar 13, 2013
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Merckx index said:
So I guess the only thing remaining is to see if Froome has the balls to allow the decision to be published (he says it will be).There is already one glaring contradiction in the tiny amount of information that has been released, viz.,that Froome's level was within the variation expected on the basis of his other samples. It was reported previously that none of these samples exceeded 600 ng/ml. Even if they were 800-900, 2000 one time is not within variation.

I have posted extensively before on the problems with the Heuberger study, on which this decision almost certainly was based, and in particular the dozens of samples that contradict the model. Unless there was some interaction with another drug in his system, or some other weird factor going on, I am quite confident this decision is a sham. But I will have to wait for the supposed release of details before saying more. I really, really, really hope that Petacchi and other riders sanctioned for salbutamol file suit against WADA/UCI. That might be the only way to force them to publish their reasoning in this case.

From CN:

Robin Parisotto is a leading anti-doping expert and previously worked as part of the Cycling Anti-Doping Foundation's Biological Passport programme, which tested professional cyclists. He has previously voiced concerns over the integrity of anti-doping bodies such as WADA and he believes that the decision to clear Froome without providing any evidence lacks credibility and only undermines the sport of cycling.

"I'm quite bemused and it's hard to comprehend how a salbutamol level that high could not constitute an AAF," Parisotto told Cyclingnews from his home in Australia.

Would the variation not be from the 1190 ng / ml of the adjusted AAF though? It sounds as though he was taking far less than anywhere near maximum allowed levels until the 1190 ng / ml so the variation is not within the other samples it's the variation based on his number of inhalations on stage 18 compared to the previous stages and whatever other factors were argued to reach 1190 ng / ml and of all the other samples we don't have information about to make a call either way.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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samhocking said:
Would the variation not be from the 1190 ng / ml of the adjusted AAF though? It sounds as though he was taking far less than anywhere near maximum allowed levels until the 1190 ng / ml so the variation is not within the other samples it's the variation based on his number of inhalations on stage 18 compared to the previous stages and whatever other factors were argued to reach 1190 ng / ml and of all the other samples we don't have information about to make a call either way.

Froome has been tested 79 times just in GTs by my count. Are we supposed to believe that in every one of those tests except stage 18 he took far less than the allowed amount, while in stage 18 he took the full 800 ug, and all within the last hour of the race? Because that is what this decision implies.

We also have dozens of samples from lab studies showing that 800 ug taken within an hour or two of providing a sample does not result in levels that high. So now we have to assume Froome is a freak, as well as assume that his use on that one stage was freakish.

We also have the testimony during the Petacchi case of scientists who have tested thousands of athlete samples without seeing a level this high.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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samhocking said:
Merckx index said:
So I guess the only thing remaining is to see if Froome has the balls to allow the decision to be published (he says it will be).There is already one glaring contradiction in the tiny amount of information that has been released, viz.,that Froome's level was within the variation expected on the basis of his other samples. It was reported previously that none of these samples exceeded 600 ng/ml. Even if they were 800-900, 2000 one time is not within variation.

I have posted extensively before on the problems with the Heuberger study, on which this decision almost certainly was based, and in particular the dozens of samples that contradict the model. Unless there was some interaction with another drug in his system, or some other weird factor going on, I am quite confident this decision is a sham. But I will have to wait for the supposed release of details before saying more. I really, really, really hope that Petacchi and other riders sanctioned for salbutamol file suit against WADA/UCI. That might be the only way to force them to publish their reasoning in this case.

From CN:

Robin Parisotto is a leading anti-doping expert and previously worked as part of the Cycling Anti-Doping Foundation's Biological Passport programme, which tested professional cyclists. He has previously voiced concerns over the integrity of anti-doping bodies such as WADA and he believes that the decision to clear Froome without providing any evidence lacks credibility and only undermines the sport of cycling.

"I'm quite bemused and it's hard to comprehend how a salbutamol level that high could not constitute an AAF," Parisotto told Cyclingnews from his home in Australia.

Would the variation not be from the 1190 ng / ml of the adjusted AAF though? It sounds as though he was taking far less than anywhere near maximum allowed levels until the 1190 ng / ml so the variation is not within the other samples it's the variation based on his number of inhalations on stage 18 compared to the previous stages and whatever other factors were argued to reach 1190 ng / ml and of all the other samples we don't have information about to make a call either way.

in the interests of transparency we await publication of the defence............then we will have the information
 
Jul 27, 2010
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gillan1969 said:
in the interests of transparency we await publication of the defence............then we will have the information

They brought on this speculation by publishing the decision before publishing the details--though I suppose they did that to forestall the decision on whether Froome would be allowed to ride. Still, it was a dumb thing to do.
 

thehog

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Merckx index said:
gillan1969 said:
in the interests of transparency we await publication of the defence............then we will have the information

They brought on this speculation by publishing the decision before publishing the details--though I suppose they did that to forestall the decision on whether Froome would be allowed to ride. Still, it was a dumb thing to do.

Appears ASO forced that situation with their announcement on Sunday. WADA acted fast and the UCI had no choice but to follow. Then WADA pretended it was the UCIs decision.

At this point there can be no salbutamol limit any longer for any athlete. Truely bizarre set of circumstances.