Amanda Knox, your thoughts?

[Bavarianrider]

Certainly you shouldn't use such things like body language for your investigations, or accusations.
On the other hand, i must confess for example that, part of the reason i think she is innocent, clearly is how she looks.
If she wasn't that good looking and cute i am sure i would be a lot more critical with her. I know that's a terrible way of thinking, but honestly to some extend i do judge people's charackter by the way they look. Is this right? Of course not! It's terrible actually. But isn't that just human, well i do think so.
Therefore we shouldn't forget that all those people involved in criminal investigations are just humans being too. Therefore they can make mistakes, they can be influenced by wrong estimation based on their personal opinion of a person.
But as we no that we are all just humans, the more we have to realise that there is just no way we should convict a person without any hard and substential evidence!

 

[sublimit]

Kind of feel for her Merediths family, but only Knox and the other 2 really know what happened.

From a British point of view I regard Knox as worthless scum. But thats just a personal opinion not based on anything but observing this particular person.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Kind of feel for her Merediths family, but only Knox and the other 2 really know what happened.

From a British point of view I regard Knox as worthless scum. But thats just a personal opinion not based on anything but observing this particular person.

I am not a Brit but i know what you mean.

 

[rhubroma]

Certainly you shouldn't use such things like body language for your investigations, or accusations.
On the other hand, i must confess for example that, part of the reason i think she is innocent, clearly is how she looks.
If she wasn't that good looking and cute i am sure i would be a lot more critical with her. I know that's a terrible way of thinking, but honestly to some extend i do judge people's charackter by the way they look. Is this right? Of course not! It's terrible actually. But isn't that just human, well i do think so.
Therefore we shouldn't forget that all those people involved in criminal investigations are just humans being too. Therefore they can make mistakes, they can be influenced by wrong estimation based on their personal opinion of a person.
But as we no that we are all just humans, the more we have to realise that there is just no way we should convict a person without any hard and substential evidence!

I can't believe you admitted that. What does being "cute" have anything to do with this case? Cute's got nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with it.

I don't see her, in that sense, or at any rate how she looks is totally irrelevant in my book.

What makes me doubt her story, was that she changed it five times. Then attempted to lay the guilt on the shoulders of someone who undoubtedly had nothing to do with the crime.

Sincere people, unless under agonizing torture, don't do that. The Amanda we saw on the screen was evidently not the same one who accused Patrick Lumumba of the crime.

 

[Rouetheday]

I am not a Brit but i know what you mean.

.....ummmmmm...aren't you Italian?

 

[Bavarianrider]

Of course it has actually nothing to do with the case.
However, i would have to ly if i said that the physical appereance of a human being wouldn't influnce me at all in a case like this.
Non of us is an insider, we don't really have a clue what happened. We can only look at the reports and facts we get in the media. And when we hear those facts and reports we form an opinion about the case. Somehow we have to decide which side of the story we believe. And i have to admit that when making my opinion about such a case i am most defently influnced by the way somebody looks. In this case, i simply have a very hard time to believe that such a cute girl would be able to commit such a horrendous crime. If she was an ugly 40 year old woman from England, would i come to the same conclusions? I wish i could say yes, but to be honest, i don't know and have to admit there's certainly a chance i wouldn't.
What i am trying to say with this is that it is very hard to make a decion only based on logical and objective observations. In this particular case i have the feeling that right from the beginning a major reason why Amanda Knox was accused and convicted is that Italian prosecutors had a certain picture of her in their minds. A picture that wasn't based on facts but on a subjective impression and of course on a picture drawn by British tabloids.
But while it's ok and somewhat human for an outsider to come to a certain result based on irrational thoughts and feelings, it's certainly not ok for profesionals. Convicting a person cause you think she is a "she devil" is just a no go, and really shouldn't happen in the 21st century.

 

[Christian]

I think she knows a lot more than she is revealing ... I don't want to say she actually committed the murder but I believe she did have something to do with it. That's just the feeling that I get but of course it could be completely wrong.

 

[Merckx index]

I can't believe you admitted that. What does being "cute" have anything to do with this case? Cute's got nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with it.

I don't see her, in that sense, or at any rate how she looks is totally irrelevant in my book.

What makes me doubt her story, was that she changed it five times. Then attempted to lay the guilt on the shoulders of someone who undoubtedly had nothing to do with the crime.

Sincere people, unless under agonizing torture, don't do that. The Amanda we saw on the screen was evidently not the same one who accused Patrick Lumumba of the crime.

Thank you, Rube, I couldn't believe anyone would say that, either. Frankly, she doesn't look that cute to me, but even if she did, it would not affect my judgment in the slightest. I will admit to being susceptible to the way someone presents him/herself in court (and defendants are always advised to dress well, though in theory that should not affect the jury in the slightest). During the recent Murdoch hearings, the paper's executive editor or manager or whatever, that woman, can't remember her name, seemed to me very decent, professional and humane, my impression was, she would never hack into someone's cell phone, she seems clearly shocked that it happened. And of course that is stupid to conclude, because criminal behavior is often masked by the most charming demeanor. I hope if I were on a jury I would not forget that, but I can understand juries being swayed by presentation. I don't think character is irrelevant to a judgment, it's just that so many of us are so frequently poor judges of character. But again, character is very different from physical attractiveness.

An American writer who followed the Knox case closely has a book on it coming out soon. In an article about the book, the writer claimed that Knox was at a disadvantage because she has qualities like being athletic and independent, that are not found in Italian women, hence the jury could not see her as not guilty as they would have if an italian woman were on the stand with the identical evidence against her. I think of Bronzini and Schiavone, and I say, WTF? Are Italian women really that different from American women? I'm sure there are cultural differences but I can't buy the idea that there are no women at all in that country with a personality and character something like Knox's.

In any case, it's pretty clear Amanda got off in large part because the prosecution made a mess of the DNA evidence--which wasn't compelling, anyway. A very long period of time elapsed after the crime before the evidence was collected, raising reasonable doubt about its veracity. One can make an analogy with Armstrong and the '99 samples, where despite quite powerful evidence of doping, the break in the chain of custody makes it impossible to sanction him (this would be true even if both A and B were available). But for Knox, the case is weaker than for LA, because her DNA wasn't on anything that it shouldn't have been on if she was innocent.

This might have been a travesty of justice, I guess we'll never know, but it's definitely not up there with OJ. Lots of reasonable doubt here. And if turns out that she did have some involvement in the crime that fell well short of actually committing it, let's not forget she was in jail for nearly four years.

 

[rhubroma]

Of course it has actually nothing to do with the case.
However, i would have to ly if i said that the physical appereance of a human being wouldn't influnce me at all in a case like this.
Non of us is an insider, we don't really have a clue what happened. We can only look at the reports and facts we get in the media. And when we hear those facts and reports we form an opinion about the case. Somehow we have to decide which side of the story we believe. And i have to admit that when making my opinion about such a case i am most defently influnced by the way somebody looks. In this case, i simply have a very hard time to believe that such a cute girl would be able to commit such a horrendous crime. If she was an ugly 40 year old woman from England, would i come to the same conclusions? I wish i could say yes, but to be honest, i don't know and have to admit there's certainly a chance i wouldn't.
What i am trying to say with this is that it is very hard to make a decion only based on logical and objective observations. In this particular case i have the feeling that right from the beginning a major reason why Amanda Knox was accused and convicted is that Italian prosecutors had a certain picture of her in their minds. A picture that wasn't based on facts but on a subjective impression and of course on a picture drawn by British tabloids.
But while it's ok and somewhat human for an outsider to come to a certain result based on irrational thoughts and feelings, it's certainly not ok for profesionals. Convicting a person cause you think she is a "she devil" is just a no go, and really shouldn't happen in the 21st century.

I have said this all along (bold). This is precisely why the tabloid news, and not only in Britain, was abominable.

But just listen to yourself. You find that being cute has, in some way, to do with moral integrity. The same way, evidently, being 40 and ugly has to do with being wicked. Well that's right out of a Grimm fable.

I can assure you that on the Italian side the investigators were not simply basing their portrait on mere feelings, but a comprehensive investigation, the details of which, the public frankly doesn't know.

Perhaps their conclusions did not make the Americans happy (obviously not) by breaking the wholesome, angel take, but they weren't unprofessional in the same way the American press was in being totally superficial when asserting points from afar and claims that they said were also valid about her habits in Perugia, of which they were totally in the dark and new nothing about.

What resulted was a class of cultures, that turned into a media campaign against the entire Italian judicial system. I don't think this was fair. I also think that the Italians came to know more about what Amanda and Raffaele were up to that evening, however, couldn't provide all the evidence that would have made a conviction less troublesome.

Hopefully this was for the best, in so far as they really aren't the killers. But that they were totally estranged from the incident, I really don't buy it.

 

[rhubroma]

Thank you, Rube, I couldn't believe anyone would say that, either. Frankly, she doesn't look that cute to me, but even if she did, it would not affect my judgment in the slightest. I will admit to being susceptible to the way someone presents him/herself in court (and defendants are always advised to dress well, though in theory that should not affect the jury in the slightest). During the recent Murdoch hearings, the paper's executive editor or manager or whatever, that woman, can't remember her name, seemed to me very decent, professional and humane, my impression was, she would never hack into someone's cell phone, she seems clearly shocked that it happened. And of course that is stupid to conclude, because criminal behavior is often masked by the most charming demeanor. I hope if I were on a jury I would not forget that, but I can understand juries being swayed by presentation. I don't think character is irrelevant to a judgment, it's just that so many of us are so frequently poor judges of character. But again, character is very different from physical attractiveness.

An American writer who followed the Knox case closely has a book on it coming out soon. In an article about the book, the writer claimed that Knox was at a disadvantage because she has qualities like being athletic and independent, that are not found in Italian women, hence the jury could not see her as not guilty as they would have if an italian woman were on the stand with the identical evidence against her. I think of Bronzini and Schiavone, and I say, WTF? Are Italian women really that different from American women? I'm sure there are cultural differences but I can't buy the idea that there are no women at all in that country with a personality and character something like Knox's.

In any case, it's pretty clear Amanda got off in large part because the prosecution made a mess of the DNA evidence--which wasn't compelling, anyway. A very long period of time elapsed after the crime before the evidence was collected, raising reasonable doubt about its veracity. One can make an analogy with Armstrong and the '99 samples, where despite quite powerful evidence of doping, the break in the chain of custody makes it impossible to sanction him (this would be true even if both A and B were available). But for Knox, the case is weaker than for LA, because her DNA wasn't on anything that it shouldn't have been on if she was innocent.

This might have been a travesty of justice, I guess we'll never know, but it's definitely not up there with OJ. Lots of reasonable doubt here.

Yea, and you know, none of the American journalists, with the possible exception of a woman who wrote a book on why she thought Amanda was guilty, spoke Italian.

They couldn't communicate with the Italians. And even if Italian women may behave differently than American women, they are certainly strong willed and confident in their way. In any case, this wasn't an issue with the Italians, Amanda's supposed physical aspects vs. Italian women's femininity. Just BS.

I agree that the DNA evidence was not usable, whether or not the other reasons behind why the Italians felt she and Raffaele - I can't stress that enough, because the media made this out to be like some crusade against a far-from-home damsel in distress - were guilty will evidently never be placed under further scrutiny.

And so this will end up being another one of the famous list of "Italian Mysteries," for which if the nation were a film it would certainly get the Oscar.

 

[joe_papp]

"How a naive kid from Seattle was coerced into confessing to a brutal murder"

Have you all read this article:

The Neverending Nightmare of Amanda Knox - How a naive kid from Seattle was coerced into confessing to a brutal murder and wound up sentenced to 26 years in an Italian jail

Excerpt:

"When an attractive young woman from a privileged British family is murdered in Italy, you've got a popular crime story. When the person suspected of killing her is an attractive young woman from a privileged American family, you have tabloid gold. When the prosecutor hypothesizes that the victim was slaughtered during a satanic ritual orgy, you've got the crime story of a decade. When a sitting U.S. senator declares that the case "raises serious questions about the Italian justice system" and asks if "anti-Americanism" is to blame, and when 11 Italian lawmakers in Silvio Berlusconi's coalition request a probe of the prosecutor's office — well, at that point, you have an international crisis.

One might expect that the lead role in this blockbuster would be assigned to the victim, a placid, pretty girl from London named Meredith Kercher. The daughter of a tabloid writer and his Indian-born wife, Kercher was a serious student who didn't take herself too seriously; she had been drawn to the Italian city of Perugia, in part, for its reputation as the City of Chocolate. She quickly made a group of British girlfriends, joining them for dinner parties, movie nights and dancing at the local discos. Kercher was beautiful, bubbly, devoted to her family, a model daughter.

And yet, less than a day after her murder, Meredith Kercher was all but forgotten. The show was stolen by an accidental ingénue named Amanda Knox, who, until she was convicted of murder and sentenced to spend the next 26 years in prison, was unaware of a number of significant facts about herself. Knox did not understand, for instance, that she was beautiful. It was new to her, her beauty — as a high school student at Seattle Prep she was heavier, had acne and was more devoted to rock climbing and backpacking than to dating. She didn't have her first boyfriend until she was 19. "She's a little dork who doesn't wear matched socks," says her best friend, Madison Paxton. "I'd never use 'sexy' to describe her." Her beauty is no longer a mystery to her, however, now that she's received hundreds of letters from male admirers all over the world..."

For the record, I don't think Knox committed the murder, though she certainly falsely accused her former employer, but the circumstances under which she did so hardly indicate any malice on her part (the Italian police investigators, crime analysts and prosecutor don't look so well-intentioned though).

Anyway, gotta run - just wanted to share the link to the R0lling Stone article. If I get put into prison next week I hope you'll all write and won't forget me!

 

[Bavarianrider]

I have said this all along (bold). This is precisely why the tabloid news, and not only in Britain, was abominable.

But just listen to yourself. You find that being cute has, in some way, to do with moral integrity. The same way, evidently, being 40 and ugly has to do with being wicked. Well that's right out of a Grimm fable.

I can assure you that on the Italian side the investigators were not simply basing their portrait on mere feelings, but a comprehensive investigation, the details of which, the public frankly doesn't know.

Perhaps their conclusions did not make the Americans happy (obviously not) by breaking the wholesome, angel take, but they weren't unprofessional in the same way the American press was in being totally superficial when asserting points from afar and claims that they said were also valid about her habits in Perugia, of which they were totally in the dark and new nothing about.

What resulted was a class of cultures, that turned into a media campaign against the entire Italian judicial system. I don't think this was fair. I also think that the Italians came to know more about what Amanda and Raffaele were up to that evening, however, couldn't provide all the evidence that would have made a conviction less troublesome.

Hopefully this was for the best, in so far as they really aren't the killers. But that they were totally estranged from the incident, I really don't buy it.

I know that's something out of a Grimm fable.
But i caught myself feeling this way. Just a sidenote i learned about myself observing this case.

Anyway if i had a wish in this case, i would hope that Knox and and her ex boyfriend are really totally innocent and the guy who is in prison actually did it on his own. Cause in this case case jutice would have been served to everyone, inclunding the family of the victim

 

[rhubroma]

Have you all read this article:

The Neverending Nightmare of Amanda Knox - How a naive kid from Seattle was coerced into confessing to a brutal murder and wound up sentenced to 26 years in an Italian jail

Excerpt: ...

For the record, I don't think Knox committed the murder, though she certainly falsely accused her former employer, but the circumstances under which she did so hardly indicate any malice on her part (the Italian police investigators, crime analysts and prosecutor don't look so well-intentioned though).

Anyway, gotta run - just wanted to share the link to the R0lling Stone article. If I get put into prison next week I hope you'll all write and won't forget me!

Well the Rolling Stone article has its take, which isn't entirely representative of the investigation I don't think. There may have been some less then well-intentioned aspects about the investigators, agreed, but which investigations into a murder start with good will toward the suspect? That in itself isn't proof of error or reckless inappropriateness.

While I give more significance to her accusing her employer for a crime she knew he didn't commit. Someone that has absolutely nothing to hide might change her story if under great stress and fear, yes, though to also take the further step and falsely accuse another I see as calumny.

Perhaps your present situation has peaked your interest in the justice process as such? In bocca al lupo.

 

[User Guide]

From my limited knowledge of the case(same as everyone here) it is right there wasnt enough evidence to uphold a conviction.That being said a couple of facts kind of stand out too me......
A local shop owner when he went to open his shop the morning after the murder found Knox waiting for him too open, she bought a large amount of bleach(which there was a receipt for).The apartment was scrubbed clean and its as if Knox had never been there even though shed lived there for 4 months.It may well be the way the footage is edited but theres something about that girl that gives me the heebie-geebies,she was involved without doubt in my mind,either in the crime orf in the cover up.

 

[rhubroma]

PS. I, too, was perplexed by the "satanic rite" thing, which is probably BS.

However, it was connected to Raffaele. The kid's evidently got a morbid fascination with really big knives. He put pictures of himself on the internet dressed, I don't know, in an all white bio-squad like outfit, brandishing a big a$$ butcher's knife, of which he apparently had a collection and was chating about.

In any case, the dude has issues.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Well just because he likes knifes doesn't mean is a killer.
If Knox was really involved in all this, why didn't she just leave Italy.
She actually had plenty of time to leave if she wanted.
She could have said that she was so in shock about this murder that she didn't want to stay in Italy any longer. Would have been quiet a plausible statement.
She had plenty of days to leave Italy after the murder.

 

[rhubroma]

I never said that, but merely wanted to point out that Raffaele's image was the underlying rational to a specific hypothisis, which wasn't mine.

I still think he's got issues. And why don't you ask Amanda why she didn't just flee? Perhaps because that is precisely what Rudy did (Germany), and that was incriminating.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Cause i'm just a random person on the internet among millions and millions
I don't know, i think it would have looked plausible if she left. She has relatives in Germany. She just could have gone there and take the next plane to the USA. And it woud have been all over for her.

 

[oldborn]

I never heard for Amanda before couple of days
I have been reading local papers, they are comparing Amanda vs Davis case, white vs black justice.
I do not have much knowledge about her case, but if she done it in Texas maybe she would be hanged from the nearest tree.

 

[Bavarianrider]

I never heard for Amanda before couple of days
I have been reading local papers, they are comparing Amanda vs Davis case, black vs white justice.
I do not have much knowledge about her case, but if she done it in Texas maybe she would be hanged from the nearest tree.

She ain't black
So nothing to fear in Texas i guess?

 

[oldborn]

She ain't black
So nothing to fear in Texas i guess?

Yeah I know she is not black, but anyway there is lot of trees there I guess

 

[joe_papp]

In bocca al lupo.

crepi... crepi crepi crepi...

 

[Cobblestones]

Yeah I know she is not black, but anyway there is lot of trees there I guess

Nah, they've all burnt down by now.

There's a bigger narrative, though, and that is the deep seated believe that Americans will never receive a fair trial in foreign countries. It is usually used to excuse the US from international agreements such as extraditing suspected war criminals to international courts etc (and of course the claim that the US military will handle all of that no matter what, but that's probably weak comfort for the Abu Ghraib prisoners).

 

[Cycle Chic]

Does anyone know what she said she did that morning after leaving Sollecito's apartment ? this all seems a bit vague. I read that she took a shower in the blood spotted bathroom.

And why were there no fingerprints of Knox's in the apartment ? Why did they both turn off their mobile phones from 9pm until 6am ?

Anyone know the explanations that were given ?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I never heard for Amanda before couple of days
I have been reading local papers, they are comparing Amanda vs Davis case, white vs black justice.
I do not have much knowledge about her case, but if she done it in Texas maybe she would be hanged from the nearest tree.

Not a tree.

Lethal injection is the way they do it now.