Americans don't dope

[jahn]

Re: Re:

Not dope related but is the American collegiate system limited to certain sports, say Athletics, American Rugby (cant call it football), Basketball and Baseball (Ice Hockey?)

yeah, you wont get a cycling scholarship anywhere, even Tom Danielson's alma mater Fort Lewis or Durango or wherever in Colorado. But Tommy D did kick in some cash for a quasi scholarship for a rider. There will be scholarships for lacrosse or other particularly american sports.

Getting a full ride to a state unversity is like the equivalent of $30-$40k a year roundabouts, which includes housing and meals.

Problem is, that dweeb like myself going into computer science or engineering will out earn you very fast and enjoy much better financial stability. In the US you can be comfortably upper class as a software developer with no connections even. Unfortunately being a student athlete is way too demanding to go into many STEM courses.

 

[El Pistolero]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0WfsAwvTSU

Nope, this was done on paniagua, duh!

 

[sniper]

Don't remember who but a few days ago somebody was tweeting data sheets showing American Olympians in 1984 being taught how to circumvent steroid testing by means of proper periodization.

This corresponds to other reports I've been reading about that period (posted in the US cycling scene thread) suggesting that from the late 70s onwards USOC had an extensive internal testing system going on the dual aim of which was to help athletes (a) gear up and (b) fly below the radar.

In my humble view, we should be suspicious of any American athlete that went through one of the US Olympic Training Centres from the late 70s onwards.

Yes, that includes Lemond, Heiden, Carpenter, Hampsten, and so many others of whom the popular view is that they were clean.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

https://twitter.com/rossiyasport/status/764950847545630721

List of USA athletes who have tested positive for doping.

No LeMond or Hampsten listed....Sniper will be disappointed

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

In my humble view, we should be suspicious of any American athlete that went through one of the US Olympic Training Centres from the late 70s onwards.

Yes, that includes Lemond, Heiden, Carpenter, Hampsten, and so many others of whom the popular view is that they were clean.

According to Wheelman(was it?), Heiden was doping as part of that 7 Eleven team, at least that's the perception one could make from reading it. Osh was pretty stern in trying to *help* the team in any way he could.

I do however think neither Phinney nor Hampsten were involved in any doping.

There's never been anything stating they have, if you know of something that shows they 100% doped, by all means please post it.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

In my humble view, we should be suspicious of any American athlete that went through one of the US Olympic Training Centres from the late 70s onwards.

Yes, that includes Lemond, Heiden, Carpenter, Hampsten, and so many others of whom the popular view is that they were clean.

According to Wheelman(was it?), Heiden was doping as part of that 7 Eleven team, at least that's the perception one could make from reading it. Osh was pretty stern in trying to *help* the team in any way he could.

interesting, i never read the Wheelman parts about Heiden.
So you agree Heiden was likely doping?
Well as you know, Heiden is now the direct colleague of Max Testa at BMC.
Testa was Hampsten's career-long coach and doctor. Small world. Lots of coincidences.
Another such coincidence is that steroid specialist Hagerman and exposed blood doper Edmund Burke were doing physiological testing on both Heiden and Lemond in the late 70s at the OTC.

I do however think neither Phinney nor Hampsten were involved in any doping.

one question only: *why* not?

As for Hampsten, why do you think he was training at the OTC with Eddie B. between 1982-84 when he wasn't even participating in the Olympics? And what do you make of the above-mentioned career-long liaison between Hampsten and Max Testa, one of the most renowned doping docs of the scene?

Phinney? lol.
You think he was strong enough to resist the pressures to perform and tempations to dope? The OTC was there to facilitate it.
Why do you think Carl Leusenkamp (caught), Eddie B. (exposed) and Edmund Burke (exposed) were in charge of OTC cycling? That's three exposed dopers/enablers in charge of the OTC cycling academy, and their team additionally had a strength coach in the shape of Olympic weightlifter Harvey Newton.
I guess only *American* weightlifters don't dope?

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

In my humble view, we should be suspicious of any American athlete that went through one of the US Olympic Training Centres from the late 70s onwards.

Yes, that includes Lemond, Heiden, Carpenter, Hampsten, and so many others of whom the popular view is that they were clean.

According to Wheelman(was it?), Heiden was doping as part of that 7 Eleven team, at least that's the perception one could make from reading it. Osh was pretty stern in trying to *help* the team in any way he could.

interesting, i never read the Wheelman parts about Heiden.
So you agree Heiden was likely doping?
Well as you know, Heiden is now the direct colleague of Max Testa at BMC.
Testa was Hampsten's career-long coach and doctor. Small world. Lots of coincidences.
Another such coincidence is that steroid specialist Hagerman and exposed blood doper Edmund Burke were doing physiological testing on both Heiden and Lemond in the late 70s at the OTC.

I do however think neither Phinney nor Hampsten were involved in any doping.

one question only: *why* not?

As for Hampsten, why do you think he was training at the OTC with Eddie B. between 1982-84 when he wasn't even participating in the Olympics? And what do you make of the above-mentioned career-long liaison between Hampsten and Max Testa, one of the most renowned doping docs of the scene?

Phinney? lol.
You think he was strong enough to resist the pressures to perform and tempations to dope? The OTC was there to facilitate it.
Why do you think Carl Leusenkamp (caught), Eddie B. (exposed) and Edmund Burke (exposed) were in charge of OTC cycling? That's three exposed dopers/enablers in charge of the OTC cycling academy, and their team additionally had a strength coach in the shape of Olympic weightlifter Harvey Newton.
I guess only *American* weightlifters don't dope?

Again Sniper, if you have said proof or evidence of: LeMond/Hampsten/Phinney doping....please provide it? Please stop dodging the questions & provide answers.

I doubt Phinney was doping, why?(Like LeMond and Hampsten) he didn't need to. Phinney was a pretty decorated rider in that, he'd won something like 200 races in his career. He faultered in the Tour, where he struggled.

Alexei Grewal was on those 7 Eleven teams too, and has admitted to doping. He's also said HE NEVER SAW HAMPSTEN OR LeMond(or ever heard either) doped. Hinault/Sean Kelly/Steven Bauer/Roche/Heiden/Phinney all said they've never seen or heard of either doping.

I brought up some doping stuff to Grewal on FB once, & he readily admitted hed doped, but that the others mentioned did not.

Brought up LeMond and Hampsten supposedly "doping" to Steven Bauer once on FB too and he came off as if he was insulted I even asked. He was very kind and honestly said what EVERYONE not named Sniper have said about LeMond/Hampsten supposed "doping":" Are you kidding? Theyd have been busted years ago if they had, it would've come out by now certainly, you can be sure of that".

Also(IIRC), he said BOTH Hampsten and LeMond were staunch supporters of clean cycling and that neither would do it, just out of their disliking of it.

What I've told you above is true, I've asked both of these gentlemen the stuff I mentioned and both answered honestly.

They would know...more than anyone else here, or more than what someone with a vendetta against both would say.

Bauer was in LeMond and Hampstens inner circles, as he was teammates of both.

Also, afaik, Bauer has never been a doper, not busted for it, much less been accused of it....unless you or someone else knows differently?

But I went to the horse and asked him, and straight from the horses mouth, he(&Grewal) said what I did above.

They were both very cool and honest about it.

 

[sniper]

What you describe sounds like pretty straightforward classic omerta. I wouldn't expect differently.

If you have a link to grewal saying those things , id be obliged.

So phinney faltered in the Tour, yet you state he 'didn't dope because he didnt need to'?
I hope u see the problem there.

As for your constant asking for proof and evidence: with due respect, you still don't seem to have a solid grasp of how those two concepts differ from one another, even though it's been explained to you a couple of times before.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

What you describe sounds like pretty straightforward classic omerta. I wouldn't expect differently.

If you have a link to grewal saying those things , id be obliged.

So phinney faltered in the Tour, yet you state he 'didn't dope because he didnt need to'?
I hope u see the problem there.

As for your constant asking for proof and evidence: with due respect, you still don't seem to have a solid grasp of how those two concepts differ from one another, even though it's been explained to you a couple of times before.

Lol! He faultered why? He wasn't a strong enough rider to sustain the rigors of being the lead rider in the Tour. You must've conveniently missed those yours he rode in as a member of 7. Eleven where he struggled.

Didn't he break his wrist during the 86 Tour iirc?

Had Phinney been doping, don't you think he would've probably faired better, since doping enhances a riders strengths and abilities?

Lets not let common sense get in the way of your blatant agenda though.

I'd be glad to post links, just as soon as you start posting your proof about Hampsten and LeMond supposedly doping, how about it?


As for your response on the lack of YOU posting proof: Who has explained it to me a few times before and what am I not understanding, explain please?

It's just a simple concept I figure even YOU could understand: Poster keeps claiming so and do did such and such. When asked repeatedly by SEVERAL other posters to provide any sort of credible/verifiable proof/evidence/link to back up their claims, they scurry and tuck their tails between their legs and ignore/avoid the questions, in hopes these folks will forget.

That's usually how it goes

You were basically outed as having a personal agenda against LeMond and will STOP AT NOTHING to try to get some sort on him, even going so far as to posting a poll, claiming/calling him the "dirtiest CHEATER ever", remember? We do.

I'll make you a deal Sniper, I'll stop asking you to provide proof of: LeMond/Hampsten(and now Phinney) doping, if you start producing info stating they have.....can you you do that?

 

[sniper]

So no link? Noted.

As for phinney, first you say he didn't need to dope. Now you say he would have been better with dope.
Which is it?

 

[sniper]

I didn't post any poll. Retract that please.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re:

So no link? Noted.

As for phinney, first you say he didn't need to dope. Now you say he would have been better with dope.
Which is it?

Ok then....post YOUR LINKS that can prove 100% without question that: LeMond/Phinney/and Hampsten doped?

There has to be links to that supposed "proof" too, right? Something we can all click on and it leads us to 100% verifiable proof of what you keep claiming, you should have this info at the ready shouldn't you?

I'm /we're anxious to see It.


There is no "which is it", I've never wavered from what I said did I? I said Phinney wasn't a strong enough rider as a lead to consistently win stages and become a TDF winner.(Just like Alex Steida wasnt, despite him winning a stage and leading I think for a brief moment). He wasn't strong enough as a lead rider to sustain the lead and faultered)

Which I was/am right about. Which is why he "faultered" in the Tour and couldn't win it.


AGAIN, you love to spin things to suit your weak agenda....no "Omerta" with any of those guys.

So no link(s) from YOU stating: LeMond/Hampsten/Phinney doped? NOTED.)(i can do it too).

( Somehow I'm not at all surprised there isnt).

 

[sniper]

Good grief. This is all over the place.
Let's get it back on topic: somebody was tweeting a.data sheet designed to help 1984 US olympic athletes to gear up on steroids without testing positive.
Phinney and carpenter were two 1984 olympic athletes. I wonder if they ever saw that sheet.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

What you describe sounds like pretty straightforward classic omerta. I wouldn't expect differently.

If you have a link to grewal saying those things , id be obliged.

So phinney faltered in the Tour, yet you state he 'didn't dope because he didnt need to'?
I hope u see the problem there.

As for your constant asking for proof and evidence: with due respect, you still don't seem to have a solid grasp of how those two concepts differ from one another, even though it's been explained to you a couple of times before.

Lol! He faultered why? He wasn't a strong enough rider to sustain the rigors of being the lead rider in the Tour. You must've conveniently missed those yours he rode in as a member of 7. Eleven where he struggled.

Didn't he break his wrist during the 86 Tour iirc?

Had Phinney been doping, don't you think he would've probably faired better, since doping enhances a riders strengths and abilities?

Lets not let common sense get in the way of your blatant agenda though.

I'd be glad to post links, just as soon as you start posting your proof about Hampsten and LeMond supposedly doping, how about it?


As for your response on the lack of YOU posting proof: Who has explained it to me a few times before and what am I not understanding, explain please?

It's just a simple concept I figure even YOU could understand: Poster keeps claiming so and do did such and such. When asked repeatedly by SEVERAL other posters to provide any sort of credible/verifiable proof/evidence/link to back up their claims, they scurry and tuck their tails between their legs and ignore/avoid the questions, in hopes these folks will forget.

That's usually how it goes

You were basically outed as having a personal agenda against LeMond and will STOP AT NOTHING to try to get some sort on him, even going so far as to posting a poll, claiming/calling him the "dirtiest CHEATER ever", remember? We do.

I'll make you a deal Sniper, I'll stop asking you to provide proof of: LeMond/Hampsten(and now Phinney) doping, if you start producing info stating they have.....can you you do that?

Your claim above is false. As in making stuff up.

asking for proof for doping in the clinic really is somewhat of a dream state or reality.

From what I have read it is snipers opinion and he points to coincidences. For you it seems to much to take and you hold a different opinion. That seems fair to me from both sides.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Good grief. This is all over the place.
Let's get it back on topic: somebody was tweeting a.data sheet designed to help 1984 US olympic athletes to gear up on steroids without testing positive.
Phinney and carpenter were two 1984 olympic athletes. I wonder if they ever saw that sheet.

Lmao! I figured as much. Maybe you can pm Phinney on FB and show him that info & also ask him if he doped? Then get back to us with his response?

Still waiting on your links Sniper, If you can find the time to do so of course.

Do you think Taylor would admit to doping?

Do you think if Taylor's parents doped, and the likely hood is they did in 1984 olympics, that Taylor who rode for Livestrong in US and now for Och in BMC is anti doping, he is having a hard time showing it!

Phinney has no problems training with Lim. That tells me lots.

 

[DanielSong39]

Given the current level of American cycling these days, it's almost plausible that American cyclists don't dope - or at the very least, dope a lot less.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

What you describe sounds like pretty straightforward classic omerta. I wouldn't expect differently.

If you have a link to grewal saying those things , id be obliged.

So phinney faltered in the Tour, yet you state he 'didn't dope because he didnt need to'?
I hope u see the problem there.

As for your constant asking for proof and evidence: with due respect, you still don't seem to have a solid grasp of how those two concepts differ from one another, even though it's been explained to you a couple of times before.

Lol! He faultered why? He wasn't a strong enough rider to sustain the rigors of being the lead rider in the Tour. You must've conveniently missed those yours he rode in as a member of 7. Eleven where he struggled.

Didn't he break his wrist during the 86 Tour iirc?

Had Phinney been doping, don't you think he would've probably faired better, since doping enhances a riders strengths and abilities?

Lets not let common sense get in the way of your blatant agenda though.

I'd be glad to post links, just as soon as you start posting your proof about Hampsten and LeMond supposedly doping, how about it?


As for your response on the lack of YOU posting proof: Who has explained it to me a few times before and what am I not understanding, explain please?

It's just a simple concept I figure even YOU could understand: Poster keeps claiming so and do did such and such. When asked repeatedly by SEVERAL other posters to provide any sort of credible/verifiable proof/evidence/link to back up their claims, they scurry and tuck their tails between their legs and ignore/avoid the questions, in hopes these folks will forget.

That's usually how it goes

You were basically outed as having a personal agenda against LeMond and will STOP AT NOTHING to try to get some sort on him, even going so far as to posting a poll, claiming/calling him the "dirtiest CHEATER ever", remember? We do.

I'll make you a deal Sniper, I'll stop asking you to provide proof of: LeMond/Hampsten(and now Phinney) doping, if you start producing info stating they have.....can you you do that?

Your claim above is false. As in making stuff up.

asking for proof for doping in the clinic really is somewhat of a dream state or reality.

From what I have read it is snipers opinion and he points to coincidences. For you it seems to much to take and you hold a different opinion. That seems fair to me from both sides.

What did I make up? He didn't make up that poll?

 

[86TDFWinner]

Re: Re:

Good grief. This is all over the place.
Let's get it back on topic: somebody was tweeting a.data sheet designed to help 1984 US olympic athletes to gear up on steroids without testing positive.
Phinney and carpenter were two 1984 olympic athletes. I wonder if they ever saw that sheet.

Lmao! I figured as much. Maybe you can pm Phinney on FB and show him that info & also ask him if he doped? Then get back to us with his response?

Still waiting on your links Sniper, If you can find the time to do so of course.

Do you think Taylor would admit to doping?

Do you think if Taylor's parents doped, and the likely hood is they did in 1984 olympics, that Taylor who rode for Livestrong in US and now for Och in BMC is anti doping, he is having a hard time showing it!

Phinney has no problems training with Lim. That tells me lots.

Not talking about Taylor, talking about Davis

 

[Starstruck]

"I'd like to buy the world a
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VM2eLhvsSM

$

http://www.booksincanada.com/article_view.asp?id=2721

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

From what I have read it is snipers opinion and he points to coincidences. For you it seems to much to take and you hold a different opinion. That seems fair to me from both sides.

This is exactly what I'm seeing too, with Sniper joining more dots

Have to chuckle at the FB verifications though - "Hi Mr [ex Pro], you don't know me, but can you tell me if you doped when you were racing back in the 80's?"
Because they'd simply just say 'yes' to such a question from some random...

Sherlock Holmes eat your heart out!

 

[sniper]

I guess we're just lucky tdf86fan is not a Wiggins or froome or indurain or cancellara fan.
Imagine him yelling and shouting about 100% PROOF in those threads.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Yeah, but you still have a personal beef with LeMond.

Right?

I have no problem with LeMond being called on his hyprocrisy. The only bad dopers LeMond ever met were other American TdF winners. Go figure.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

What you describe sounds like pretty straightforward classic omerta. I wouldn't expect differently.

If you have a link to grewal saying those things , id be obliged.

So phinney faltered in the Tour, yet you state he 'didn't dope because he didnt need to'?
I hope u see the problem there.

As for your constant asking for proof and evidence: with due respect, you still don't seem to have a solid grasp of how those two concepts differ from one another, even though it's been explained to you a couple of times before.

Lol! He faultered why? He wasn't a strong enough rider to sustain the rigors of being the lead rider in the Tour. You must've conveniently missed those yours he rode in as a member of 7. Eleven where he struggled.

Didn't he break his wrist during the 86 Tour iirc?

Had Phinney been doping, don't you think he would've probably faired better, since doping enhances a riders strengths and abilities?

Lets not let common sense get in the way of your blatant agenda though.

I'd be glad to post links, just as soon as you start posting your proof about Hampsten and LeMond supposedly doping, how about it?


As for your response on the lack of YOU posting proof: Who has explained it to me a few times before and what am I not understanding, explain please?

It's just a simple concept I figure even YOU could understand: Poster keeps claiming so and do did such and such. When asked repeatedly by SEVERAL other posters to provide any sort of credible/verifiable proof/evidence/link to back up their claims, they scurry and tuck their tails between their legs and ignore/avoid the questions, in hopes these folks will forget.

That's usually how it goes

You were basically outed as having a personal agenda against LeMond and will STOP AT NOTHING to try to get some sort on him, even going so far as to posting a poll, claiming/calling him the "dirtiest CHEATER ever", remember? We do.

I'll make you a deal Sniper, I'll stop asking you to provide proof of: LeMond/Hampsten(and now Phinney) doping, if you start producing info stating they have.....can you you do that?

Your claim above is false. As in making stuff up.

asking for proof for doping in the clinic really is somewhat of a dream state or reality.

From what I have read it is snipers opinion and he points to coincidences. For you it seems to much to take and you hold a different opinion. That seems fair to me from both sides.

What did I make up? He didn't make up that poll?

I believe that poll was created by someone other than sniper.

 

[sniper]

Horst Roder, the vice president of the German Gymnastics and Sports Association, made it a point to assert in a legal testimony that the administration of doping substances in the GDR began ‘much later’ than was the case in the USA and the Federal Republic of Germany.
Moreover, a 1974 official GDR document that elucidated the foundational underpinnings of the East German doping system cited the ‘practical application of drugs to enhance performance ... in the USA, the FRG, France, Britain, Italy, Sweden, Finland and the European
socialist countries’.

(source: Thomas M. Hunt, Paul Dimeo, Florian Hemme & Anne Mueller (2014)
The Health Risks of Doping during the Cold War: A Comparative Analysis of the Two Sides
of the Iron Curtain, The International Journal of the History of Sport, 31:17, 2230-2244)

 

[sniper]

I figured future postings on Dardik, Ariel, and the whole OTC bunch (Miller, Costill, Hagerman, Burke, etc.) might fit better here, as they're not necessarily 'cycling' or 'Lemond' related.

So, introducing John "Jack" Kelly, an accomplished rower, a four-time Olympian, winner of several medals at international events including bronze Olympic medal winner in 1956. After his athletic carreer he became a successful business man and sports governor.
In 1985, Kelly was elected president of USOC.
He also died in that year from a heart attack, while running.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Kelly_Jr.

Now then briefly back to our good friend and (co)founder of the OTC in 1977, Dr. Irving Dardik. (viewtopic.php?p=2018631#p2018631)

Irving Dardik, MD, a renowned vascular surgeon, (...) was serendipitously serving as Chairman of the USOC Sports Medicine Commission, since, as I understand, he was a friend and physician to Mr. Jack Kelly, President of the USOC, who in a cruel twist of fate, dropped dead while running and motivated Dardik to devoting his life to finding the cause.