Amstel Gold Race 2025, one day classic, April 20 (men's)

[tobydawq]

I just felt the organisers wanted to be more of a 'hilly Classic', which was behind their desire to bring back the Cauberg finale, but if that's what they want then using the extended circuit that put those nothingburger climbs near the finish but having the Cauberg finale is actually worse than either the 2003-12 routes (which had the Cauberg finale, but the other climbs closer to the finish) or the 2017-24 routes (which didn't have the hilltop finish, meaning that those nothingburger climbs were the last climbs, incentivising earlier action but perhaps getting away from the identity the organisers were trying to push). For me, 2013 to 2016 were some of my least fondly-remembered editions and the 2012 Worlds circuit (and its extension with Geulhemmerweg) has been terrible for the women's race, so restoring that route had a very negative connotation to me.

As Netserk said, what has happened with the women's race is completely irrelevant to this discussion and besides, I don't have any clue about that. Your hatred of a piece of road seems a bit silly to me, I must say. Especially because all evidence points towards the fact that it does no bad for the race to be close to the finish in this day and age, yet you seem to still be living in a world where riders like Gerrans and Valverde are the prime protagonists of the Ardennes Classics.

 

[Red Rick]

As Netserk said, what has happened with the women's race is completely irrelevant to this discussion and besides, I don't have any clue about that. Your hatred of a piece of road seems a bit silly to me, I must say. Especially because all evidence points towards the fact that it does no bad for the race to be close to the finish in this day and age, yet you seem to still be living in a world where riders like Gerrans and Valverde are the prime protagonists of the Ardennes Classics.

Most Amstel riders of that era were guys that would nearly always come short in Fleche/Liege. Even Gilbert won the latter two only once. Then guys like Kwiatkowski, Matthews, and GvA etc were all guys that would normally wait for the final Cauberg too.

I don't think it's that strange to think a long sequence of poor Amstel editions was partially caused by the extra loop between the Eyserbosweg/Keutenberg section and then the extra loop with the Bemelerberg. It also gave us a very poor WC in a region where great races were possible.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

As Netserk said, what has happened with the women's race is completely irrelevant to this discussion and besides, I don't have any clue about that. Your hatred of a piece of road seems a bit silly to me, I must say. Especially because all evidence points towards the fact that it does no bad for the race to be close to the finish in this day and age, yet you seem to still be living in a world where riders like Gerrans and Valverde are the prime protagonists of the Ardennes Classics.

I don't think what has happened with the women's race is irrelevant to a discussion as to why I hate the 2012 Worlds circuit and its Geulhemmerweg extension and think it is a net negative to racing, because the women are still racing it and still demonstrating that that circuit makes racing predominantly a 2km shootout, with most of their editions playing out in similar fashion to the 2012 Worlds and the Amstel Gold route from 2013 to 2016 on that circuit.

We got a damn good race yesterday, and I'm glad of it. But I do not credit the amazing race-improving impact of Bemelerberg for that, and believe Netserk was being facetious and joking in crediting that part of the parcours, hence tagging me in the post.

 

[Netserk]

Bemelerberg delivered nothing.

The additional kilometre detour did have its use in the men's race at least.

So, how about that final ascent of Cauberg coming back? I'd say the race delivered a bit of a bloody nose to both of our theories.

Pogi's fate was sealed on Bemelerberg as he was unable to increase the gap again, but rather lost a few seconds and sat up afterwards. The mythical slopes were the most exciting climb in the whole race, far more exciting than the nothingburger of the final Cauberg (and I think the finish would have been even better without it).

I don't think Cauberg had a big impact, just as I expected.

 

[Netserk]

At least we had something really nice in the years where it mattered most.

No risk of a ruinous bunch sprint anymore, only a pre-programmed solo of 30-40 km.

(I have nothing against returning to a Cauberg finale, but only if they get rid of that awful circuit, which sucks in all its versions but especially lengthening the flat bit between Bemelerberg and Cauberg for no apparent reason, and I feel after seeing some sprinting it out going on, the organisers want to regain the race's identity as a hilly classic)

The 2003-2012 route descended down to a Cauberg sprint for a reason, I don't think it was a good route.

I also don't think 2025 is the same as 2013-2016 as the smaller roads do make a meaningful difference, and in this day and age it is still far superior to the 2003-2012 route.

Do you feel 2013-16 was an improvement on 2003-12?

Because I feel it was a completely pointless addition to the course that only removed hope of anything else happening, and wish Valkenburg never won the bid for the Worlds in 2012 because we've been paying for it ever since.

No, it was worse, and worse in a different way.

But cycling is in a different place now, and the route now is not the 2013 route. I don't fear a passive race at all, if anything I welcome a more passive race than the counterfactual!

I don't see which theory of mine was dealt a bloody nose.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Pogi's fate was sealed on Bemelerberg as he was unable to increase the gap again, but rather lost a few seconds and sat up afterwards. The mythical slopes were the most exciting climb in the whole race, far more exciting than the nothingburger of the final Cauberg (and I think the finish would have been even better without it).

I don't think Cauberg had a big impact, just as I expected.

Usually when we say "mythical slopes" it's not to mean that the existence of slopes themselves are a myth, though

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't see which theory of mine was dealt a bloody nose.

In fairness, looks like it was the post you were quoting slating the route change rather than your own words where the whole 'returning to the Cauberg will spoil things' interpretation came from, which I'd conflated as yours due to the subsequent "Bemelerberg as the last climb is the best thing for the race" parts, which I read as treating the reinstatement of the Cauberg as a negative.

I still don't agree that the Bemelerberg had any significance in the outcome yesterday, mind.

 

[Netserk]

"Bemelerberg as the last climb is the best thing for the race" parts, which I read as treating the reinstatement of the Cauberg as a negative.

Well, I do agree that Cauberg is bad. It takes some of the shine from the glorious Bemelerberg. I just don't think the impact of Cauberg is all that big the first couple of years with how the peloton is now.

 

[proffate]

And here I am thinking he started his sprint too early. When you're on the front all you have to do is lose less than one bike length, and the shorter the sprint the easier that is to do. Remco started a few seconds before he had to and also took an angle that lengthened the distance to the line. Ideally you would not get out of the saddle until the moment the riders behind are attempting to come around.

I take this back partly as Skjellmosh pointed out that the wind was coming from the left so Remco actually did have a reason to move right. Although I'm not sure why he didn't start on the right side to begin with if that was the case.

 

[Unchained]

I feel that at sign in you should have to agree to down at least one beer win or lose!!

 

[memyselfandI]

Although I'm not sure why he didn't start on the right side to begin with if that was the case.

Perfect sprint to sweep from two man draft to the left and win.

 

[gavia88]

Netserk was pushing that adding a further climb of Cauberg would be a negative relative to recent years because the race had been better for having Bemelerberg as the finale, I was pushing that Bemelerberg is a nothingburger and extending the run-in before final Cauberg would be a negative impact because if Cauberg was the final climb, extending the gap between penultimate and final Cauberg would neuter racing earlier than Cauberg.

Turns out Netserk was right that the impact of reintroducing Cauberg wouldn't be as great as I feared, but claiming that Bemelerberg delivered is also very much wrong because it, as anticipated, delivered nothing. However, the detour on the final lap between it and the final Cauberg that I was so critical of was, in fact, crucial to the denouement of the race.

The other thing was the thinking that their reasoning behind reintroducing the Cauberg finale was that they were trying to push the race as being more of a hilly Classic - but while Pogačar built his lead on the sequence of the good climbs in the race, it was the flat part where he was brought back. I also bear a grudge against that crappy 2012 circuit because of its detrimental effect on the women's race for several years and the fact that the involvement of the actual good climbs AGR has to offer are usually a token ride through 100km from the finish for the ladies.

they should use the Groeve 't Rooth instead of the Bemelerberg in the final lap. It's steeper and smaller than the Bemelerberg, so it offers a better opportunity for an atack that sticks. But without being that hard that people can wait for it. Just slightly better atacking option than Bemelerberg.

https://climbfinder.com/nl/beklimmingen/groeve-t-rooth

 

[staubsauger]

@Libertine Seguros @Netserk @Red Rick

As long as they don't get back into Belgium and re-introduce Hallembaye I'm fine!
Although Armstrong versus Boogerd was a memorable fight!

@Didinho @Logic-is-your-friend
Contrary to the beer actually. Because what Martens brews for Aldi over boarder in Bocholt / Kauille at least in its premium variant certainly tastes better than the waterish Amstel beer!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

@Didinho @Logic-is-your-friend
Contrary to the beer actually. Because what Martens brews for Aldi over boarder in Bocholt / Kauille at least in its premium variant certainly tastes better than the waterish Amstel beer!

Is it the same brewery always? A warehouse in Belgium, Colruyt, also has their own brand of lager, called Cara, but that beer changes every so many years based on which brewery gets the contract. Often these are smaller breweries that have to sell their beers at a higher price because they don't have the brand recognition of the big players, but when they get the contract to produce Cara, their volumes go up and Colruyt sells it as a cheap bear, but nobody knows which brewery is actually producing it. Depending on which brewery holds the contract at the time, you could be buying premium lager at discount prices.

 

[Sciatic]

Is it the same brewery always? A warehouse in Belgium, Colruyt, also has their own brand of lager, called Cara, but that beer changes every so many years based on which brewery gets the contract. Often these are smaller breweries that have to sell their beers at a higher price because they don't have the brand recognition of the big players, but when they get the contract to produce Cara, their volumes go up and Colruyt sells it as a cheap bear, but nobody knows which brewery is actually producing it. Depending on which brewery holds the contract at the time, you could be buying premium lager at discount prices.

Obviously you’ll need to do more in-person research!

 

[Netserk]

@Libertine Seguros @Netserk @Red Rick

As long as they don't get back into Belgium and re-introduce Hallembaye I'm fine!
Although Armstrong versus Boogerd was a memorable fight!

I'd love a return to Maastrict as the finish of the race, but without any of the climbs on the west side of Maas, not even Sint-Pietersberg. Just my beloved Bemelerberg as one of the last climbs.

 

[Berflamand]

Is it the same brewery always? A warehouse in Belgium, Colruyt, also has their own brand of lager, called Cara, but that beer changes every so many years based on which brewery gets the contract. Often these are smaller breweries that have to sell their beers at a higher price because they don't have the brand recognition of the big players, but when they get the contract to produce Cara, their volumes go up and Colruyt sells it as a cheap bear, but nobody knows which brewery is actually producing it. Depending on which brewery holds the contract at the time, you could be buying premium lager at discount prices.

Wait what? I never knew this about Cara Pils.

I drank so much Cara in my student days because it was the cheapest beer to get drunk before going to the clubs. I never realised I could be drinking a premium pils, although back then I probably would have never noticed it because I always drank it the only way Cara can be drunk, which is at room temperature.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Wait what? I never knew this about Cara Pils.

I drank so much Cara in my student days because it was the cheapest beer to get drunk before going to the clubs. I never realised I could be drinking a premium pils, although back then I probably would have never noticed it because I always drank it the only way Cara can be drunk, which is at room temperature.

Yes, Colruyt signs x-year deals with breweries, they don't have their own brewery. Currently it appears it is actually Martens Pils. But depending on when you went to college, you could also have been drinking Primus or Maes. I know Martens is highly regarded generally.

 

[RedheadDane]

@Didinho @Logic-is-your-friend
Contrary to the beer actually. Because what Martens brews for Aldi over boarder in Bocholt / Kauille at least in its premium variant certainly tastes better than the waterish Amstel beer!

Is it the same brewery always? A warehouse in Belgium, Colruyt, also has their own brand of lager, called Cara, but that beer changes every so many years based on which brewery gets the contract. Often these are smaller breweries that have to sell their beers at a higher price because they don't have the brand recognition of the big players, but when they get the contract to produce Cara, their volumes go up and Colruyt sells it as a cheap bear, but nobody knows which brewery is actually producing it. Depending on which brewery holds the contract at the time, you could be buying premium lager at discount prices.

Obviously you’ll need to do more in-person research!

Wait what? I never knew this about Cara Pils.

I drank so much Cara in my student days because it was the cheapest beer to get drunk before going to the clubs. I never realised I could be drinking a premium pils, although back then I probably would have never noticed it because I always drank it the only way Cara can be drunk, which is at room temperature.

Yes, Colruyt signs x-year deals with breweries, they don't have their own brewery. Currently it appears it is actually Martens Pils. But depending on when you went to college, you could also have been drinking Primus or Maes. I know Martens is highly regarded generally.

This conversation has... definitely taken a turn.

 

[Sciatic]

This conversation has... definitely taken a turn.

True, but since it's the AMSTEL thread it can't be considered off-topic

 

[Berflamand]

Yes, Colruyt signs x-year deals with breweries, they don't have their own brewery. Currently it appears it is actually Martens Pils. But depending on when you went to college, you could also have been drinking Primus or Maes. I know Martens is highly regarded generally.

2008-2013

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

2008-2013

Supposedly Cristal.