André Greipel: "How to stop omerta" 101

[Ryo Hazuki]

You don't train as a professional athlete though These sprinters spend all day training on the bike yet still find time enough to lift enough weights to look like bodybuilders and still be able to recover well enough from both. Ridiculous.

do you even realize most track sprinters mostly train with weights. besides you don't need to train with weights a lot to become big. unless you really don't know how to train and you're an idiot, which I doubt is what pro's are

 

[Eshnar]

I don't think he was avoiding names. The purpose of his statement is to respond to the USADA report, not to name names. That are two different things.

Certainly no active rider is stupid enough to just name names on their websites without proof. However, he could very well go to the authorities and do so. That's the smarter way.

Besides, that's WAY better than most other resposes we have gotten so far: "shocked", "didn't see anything suspicious", "cycling has moved on", "it's better now", "people need to trust us", or some crap like that.

ofc it's better than "omg how bad were those times but now cycling if clean *.* "
I just wanted to point out that this doesn't deserve an appreciation thread.

 

[hrotha]

And still no one is surprised that he avoids any name.
You know there are still cheats? Excellent. Tell us who!
If you don't call them, that's exactly what the term omerta is all about

If he has no proof, the most he can do is tip off the relevant authorities.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

there are always cheats. maybe 1% of the current peloton and it happens secretly. so of course greipel wouldn't know.

 

[TheEnoculator]

You don't train as a professional athlete though These sprinters spend all day training on the bike yet still find time enough to lift enough weights to look like bodybuilders and still be able to recover well enough from both. Ridiculous.

Whoa! Track riding is ALL about power, way more so than TT'ers or sprinters. Road riders need to endure 200km a day for several days in a row. Track riders ride a lot less distance and much faster average speed, so they need as much muscles as they can gain. Not surprised they are bulky.

Just look at Chris Hoy.

 

[TheEnoculator]

ofc it's better than "omg how bad were those times but now cycling if clean *.* "
I just wanted to point out that this doesn't deserve an appreciation thread.

Sure it does. How many riders talk like he does out of hundreds of them? I can count them with one hand.

 

[Eshnar]

Sure it does. How many riders talk like he does out of hundreds of them? I can count them with one hand.

this is because the pro peloton is a bunch of ***** ******* ********

fill with your favourite insults.

 

[iZnoGouD]

peds make an huge difference on sprinters too, dont understimate that lol
the more energy you save the more power you have in the end

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

peds make an huge difference on sprinters too, dont understimate that lol
the more energy you save the more power you have in the end

no it doesn;t it's not as if these are track guys that have no long distance stamina. sprinters can pretty much always sprint when the ocasion rises.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yes. Being a Cav fan, I have never liked André Greipel, but this may change my mind. The peloton is proving to be a pathetic bunch of omertà-loving ostriches (heads in the sand). I really don't think Greipel went far enough, but it's a step in the right direction. Chapeau André. And it's very difficult for me to say that.

I'd be interested to know why you didn't like André before. I have always felt he got a rough deal out of the Cav thing. André deserved better than he got at HTC, but he was always going to have to go somewhere else, simply because Cavendish was that much better. The Milano-Sanremo rant was less a rant, more a wistful look at a race he felt he was in the form to compete at but didn't have the chance. Cav is a better sprinter than Greipel, no doubt about it, but Greipel was basically made into a figure of fun in the course of two or three quotes.

And still no one is surprised that he avoids any name.
You know there are still cheats? Excellent. Tell us who!
If you don't call them, that's exactly what the term omerta is all about

Although we might like to know, if André can't explicitly finger them, he's not exactly going to put it in an open letter. For all we know he's already talked to the authorities. Telling us (as in the general public) who's done what before the authorities can complete due investigations is opening himself up to be sued. All he can do is hint à la Cunego.

Sure, I'd like his comments to have gone further, but in view of the comments from the likes of Horrach and Dowsett, I'll take this any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

[TheEnoculator]

no it doesn;t it's not as if these are track guys that have no long distance stamina. sprinters can pretty much always sprint when the ocasion rises.

Mmmm, it depends. In Milan-San Remo, the most difficult element in the race for a sprinter is the distance. Sprinting after 300km on the bike ain't easy. That's why MSR is not always won by a sprinter, e.g. Cancellara, Clarke both have won them. And Nibali came close this year.

 

[D-Queued]

Not to belittle the importance of Andre's statement, but as a sprinting specialist, he is considerably less dependent on PEDs for success than a GT rider, a TT specialist, or even a bumpy classic specialist. The name of the game continues to be oxygen vector enhancement, and while that can help a sprinter in training, and also ensure he's fresher at the end of the race, it is not as vital as it is for racers who win on endurance. Tyler's book and many other sources make it pretty clear that without EPO or transfusions you simply can't be an elite rider in stage races, and AFAIK, all the riders who have confessed to date were either GC riders or domestiques for GC riders. I don't think this is a coincidence.

It might shock you, but a sprinter is actually also focussing on stageraces

And explosive power has a long history of peds.

Not saying that they are as chemically enhanced as say an Armstrong, but there is a long history of cycling sprinters on sauce.

Hi Merckx Index,

An unusual case where I find myself not agreeing with you.

Unless you buy into the stride length arguments of Usain Bolt, every conceivable PED advantage offers benefit to the shortest of exertions.

I like the strong statements, and agree but...

...Andre Greipel, Chris Hoy, Marty Nothstein*... Not normal.

Dave.

*Not looking to derail the thread, but this interview from CN is a bit dated:

CN: As much talk as we hear about doping in cycling, there's never been any association of doping with Marty Nothstein

In terms of PEDs, his time at Navigators indicated some bad navigation on PED use (i.e. back to the subject at hand):

Former Navigators rider Marty Nothstein, a three-time world champion and 2000 Olympic sprint gold medalist, was also named as one of the five parties O’Bee with whom corresponded with about PED use

If you know anything about sprinting, O'Neill, O'Bee and Nothstein all seem to rank as pretty decent sprinters.

 

[Sarcastic Wet Trout]

Steroids and the like help track sprinters, but they are less helpful to road sprinters, because all of that extra muscle makes it harder to get over those hills and finish the stage. This is why the best sprinters in the road peloton are considerably slower than the fastest track sprinters. They have to balance power with weight, something track sprinters are far less concer ... Blah, blah, blah.

I'm a trout.

Didn't Tyler mention Cipollini in his book laughing his way up the hills in the early season?

 

[rickshaw]

The Real Importance

Not WHAT he said, but the fact that he SAID it. He stood up and told everyone what he believes.

"There are clear rules and regulations, and if you don't obey them, you are a cheat and must be sanctioned as those rules require!"

Very righteous, very Germanic.

In stark contrast, most sheep in the cycling herd continually bleat the same nonsense.

" It is Shocking, BUT it was Soooo long ago!. Waaay in the past. It is not like that now."
" Let's just look to the future, forget the past!"
" Shocking! Shocking what Lance and his cheating friends did. One rotten apple spoiling the barrel."

The same re-hashed obfuscation from the past.

 

[taiwan]

no it doesn;t it's not as if these are track guys that have no long distance stamina. sprinters can pretty much always sprint when the ocasion rises.

Exactly what EPO will improve. Not to mention what roids will do for your strength.

BTW, contrast what Greipel said with what JVDB said ('I did not see anything, governor').

 

[Pentacycle]

no it doesn;t it's not as if these are track guys that have no long distance stamina. sprinters can pretty much always sprint when the ocasion rises.

Of course they can sprint, but it's still about being fresher than your opponent, when you're going for the win. The hills and speed during a race tire out the explosive muscles, deteriorating their speed.

Guys like Greipel/Cav have a serious engine and endurance, but sprinters like Kittel or Bos are lacking in GT's. The latter could profit from taking PED's for instance.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Exactly what EPO will improve. Not to mention what roids will do for your strength.

BTW, contrast what Greipel said with what JVDB said ('I did not see anything, governor').

my point is that these guys already have that. it doesn't matter if they have the stamina of a lance armstrong. they are sprinters and therefore will never win on ventoux. they just need to win sprints

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Of course they can sprint, but it's still about being fresher than your opponent, when you're going for the win. The hills and speed during a race tire out the explosive muscles, deteriorating their speed.

Guys like Greipel/Cav have a serious engine and endurance, but sprinters like Kittel or Bos are lacking in GT's. The latter could profit from taking PED's for instance.

they would need to take some serious mid 90s amount of epo to really improve that though. not gonne happen these days. we don't have minali's anymore that were already a laughing joke when they rode.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Mmmm, it depends. In Milan-San Remo, the most difficult element in the race for a sprinter is the distance. Sprinting after 300km on the bike ain't easy. That's why MSR is not always won by a sprinter, e.g. Cancellara, Clarke both have won them. And Nibali came close this year.

that's why you see sprinter suffer/not win last years in msr.

 

[D-Queued]

my point is that these guys already have that. it doesn't matter if they have the stamina of a lance armstrong. they are sprinters and therefore will never win on ventoux. they just need to win sprints

1. There *always* is an overlap in energy systems - except arguably for single, sudden burst.

2. There is a training benefit to increased RBC concentration from EPO, for example.

3. There is a huge racing advantage in a short crit or long stage race, to how fresh you are at the end of the race, including working your way through the pack, or staying on the wheel in a team lead-out scenario. It isn't just the ability to have sudden burst, or stay on the wheel, but also how much oxygen is available to your brain to stay alert and react quickly.

4. There is a huge advantage in a long race to actually surviving the HC and Cat 1 climbs they stick in between the start line and the finish line and in between all of those Green Jersey intermediate sprints

Dave.

 

[Love the Scenery]

OK you people you're totally missing the point. While claiming not to belittle Greipel's statement, Merckx Index did indeed belittle Greipel's statement. Merckx Index's implication is that Greipel didn't require balls and his statement has low value because he's a sprinter. To this I reply that if you love a clean sport, criticizing those who come out strongly against doping is the wrong strategy, especially if the criticism is inane, as in the case of "oh he's only a sprinter."

Actually Greipel has become one of the top riders in the peloton (and it truly, truly kills me to say that--really). Winningest rider this season. 3 Tour stage wins. He's an important rider and his action carries weight (no pun intended).

Forget about whether or not sprinters benefit from doping. Obviously sprinters benefit from doping. Remember Zabel getting over the mountains while the rest of the sprinters were in the grupetto? If you are a doped sprinter, you can harvest bonus points when no other sprinter can (think it's a coincidence Zabel won all those green jerseys while winning relatively few stages?). You can make it into the third week of the tour fresh as a spring breeze. You don't have to worry about the cutoff time. You're going to win stages in the third week of the GTs. But the issue is really unimportant.

What is important is that Greipel wasn't answering a journo's question. He posted this to his website of his own free will (thanks Susan for the link). He decided it was important to speak and he did. How do you think the patrons of the peloton are going to like that? How do you think Contador and the Schlecks and Bjarne and Mr. Wiggins are going to like his outspokenness? Wiggo's opinion is that Armstrong is a personal hero and the whole thing is shocking. How will Wiggo, the self-appointed boss of the peloton, take to Greipel criticizing the Great Hero? Do you think there are no consequences for a sprinter? When the GC teams don't contribute to a chase, it's all on the sprinter's teams. If the GC patrons have it in for Andre, it will have very real consequences for his team on the road, and it will affect his palmarès.

No, criticizing Andre because he's "just a sprinter" is bovine defecation. You can look at my tiny post history and see that a great deal of my posts are dedicated to slamming Andre and defending Cav in their long-running conflict. Well, that's over. I still think Cav let him win that stage in the Giro but that's water under the bridge. Thank you for speaking out, Andre. Thank you for not caring if the GC contenders hurt your chances for stage victories. Thank you for standing up to the dopers in the peloton. I have long criticized you, but that's over. You have my respect from this day forward.

 

[Love the Scenery]

Let me rephrase that in more condensed format:

Whether or not doping helps sprinters is irrelevant.

Whether or not making the GC contenders mad hurts a sprinter's career is relevant.

Angering the GC contenders can make life very difficult for ANY rider. It DEFINITELY affects a sprinter's chances for stage victories. Andre is taking a very real risk by speaking out. He deserves our applause and our support. Period.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Yep. Gripel has put himself amongst a select few with those words. Hope it doesn't come back to bite him.

Certainly there aren't many who have figured out the worn out story of "everything is alright now" only makes them look like they have something to hide.

So he gets points in the IQ as well as the integrity department IMO.

 

[Merckx index]

For those challenging my point, let me try to make it really simple:

Do you believe Greipel is clean? Yes or no. My post was directed to those who assume he's clean, and that seems to be most of the posters here, who have made this an appreciation thread. If you think he's not clean, then you should be strongly criticizing his statement for hypocrisy. Maybe a few here are doing that, but most are not. (DQ, I think you are saying he is not, in which case you're being consistent in a way the other posters are not. I still think sprinters (road, not track) get less of an advantage from PEDs, but the following argument does not apply to you or anyone who thinks Greipel is juiced).

If Greipel is clean, the next question is, are the sprinters he's competing against clean? Or are at least some of them doping?

If you think at least some of the sprinters are doping, how is a clean Greipel able to beat them? The only answer I see is because the dope they are on does not give them as large an advantage as doping does to GC guys. If it did, a clean sprinter would have no chance, just as we now seem to agree that a clean GC rider has no chance of winning a GT. Granted, that may have changed a little in the past few years, but the evidence is pretty compelling that blood doping to a level the passport can't detect is going to give riders a major advantage.

OTOH, if you think all the sprinters are clean, why? If PEDs can give sprinters as much an advantage as for GC guys, do you really think no one would be taking advantage of that? If Joe Average on PEDs can beat clean Cav, don't you think some rider would be trying that?

Again, let me emphasize I'm not claiming PEDs can't help sprinters at all. I'm simply saying that they don't help them as much as they help guys win GCs. And if Greipel is really clean, I don't see how he could have the success he's had if he was racing doped riders. And this leads me to say that it's easier for him to race clean than it was for Tyler, say, or for Danielson, VDV, and all the others. Not saying it's real easy, a piece of cake, just that the choice a sprinter has to make when confronted with PEDs is not as serious as that for a GC rider. I don't think it's do them or go home. It's more like do them or maybe you won't get quite as good results as you would without them.

Scenery, you make a valid point about Greipel being admirable in potentially subjecting himself to flak from other riders in the peloton. I have no quarrel with that argument. If he really is clean, he deserves some credit for speaking up. But that is a different issue from the one I'm concerned with, how much a sacrifice in potential a sprinter has to make to race clean.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Don't think many people are struggling with the point you make Merckx. It mearly reinforces the possibility that Greipel might be clean.

The relevant point IMO is the one scenery is making. Greipel is challenging Omertà to some extent.