Andrew and Fränk: The Official Schleck Brothers thread.

[The Hitch]

Actually, there was just nothing impressive in that descend. Were you watching something else?

I was watching the gap go down down down down down.

Come on Pisti. While it wasnt Samus best descent bad would have been if he had lost time. Decent would have been if he had only gained a few seconds.

But mate, he got 50 seconds. Thats a pretty big margin.

Thankfully though, cycling fans seem to agree with me that Samu is a great descender, though atm Canc is perhaps a bit better.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=8723

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Arroyo was at 2'00" (official timing) from the trio when he linked up with Evans shortly after the top of the Mortirolo.

With 12km to go (part of the descent and climb is missing from yt) the group of Arroyo, Vino, Evans, Gadret and Sastre is at 45" (official timing).

This means Arroyo must have made an absolute minimum of 1'15" unless the group continued to make inroads on the leading trio on the first 4km of Aprica, which I don't recall (I recall Arroyo being about 40" back at the base and the others catching him quickly, and them holding fast for a while then dropping away).

The descent of the Mortirolo is also 17,0km as compared to the descent of the Col de la Madeleine being 18,5 (not a major difference admittedly, especially considering the Mortirolo descent was wet).

Basso is a bad descender, for sure, but is a Basso being guided by Nibali really that much worse than Andy (who isn't much good) and Alberto (who is mediocre) working together? The other thing, of course, is that Sánchez was only the 3rd story in that stage, after the break and the GC duo; plus of course a great Sánchez descent was expected in the circumstances. Nobody expected Arroyo to pull that out. Plenty knew he was a good descender, but not THAT good that he could make pretty useful descenders like Evans and Vinokourov look stupid.

Samuel Sánchez is an excellent descender, and there aren't too many in the péloton that can go with him if he really goes full bore. I think he started to on the descent of the Navacerrada in 2009, but unfortunately for him Valverde is one of the few that can go with him (Valverde is a superb descender, especially on technical routes), and after he couldn't distance Valverde he didn't try too hard; Valverde was happy with the GC as it was and the two more or less sat up. Arroyo has shown good descending prowess before (eg leading the winning break down from the Col de la Bonette in 2008), but mostly as a domestique (Caisse's team descending in the Dauphiné and Vuelta in 2009 was at times breathtaking, five, six, even seven men all in a line flowing throw each corner). With your career's defining moment at stake, a once-in-a-lifetime chance you will almost certainly never have again to write your name in the history books... that Mortirolo descent was truly epic.

 

[El Pistolero]

I was watching the gap go down down down down down.

Come on Pisti. While it wasnt Samus best descent bad would have been if he had lost time. Decent would have been if he had only gained a few seconds.

But mate, he got 50 seconds. Thats a pretty big margin.

Thankfully though, cycling fans seem to agree with me that Samu is a great descender, though atm Canc is perhaps a bit better.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=8723

You do know AC and AS were just toying with the competitors on that stage right? I mean, seriously, they made everyone look like total fools especially Samu. They were just watching at each other and didn't go full even on the climb. And still they dropped poor Samu. They were in their own league. Samu will never ever ever beat Andy Schleck unless something happens to Andy like a crash, mechanical, disease,...

There are a lot of better descenders in the peloton. Most good sprinters can probably descend better than Samu.

 

[luckyboy]

With your career's defining moment at stake, a once-in-a-lifetime chance you will almost certainly never have again to write your name in the history books... that Mortirolo descent was truly epic.

One of the worst moment in cycling I've seen was when they started climbing, only Evans would help and Arroyo lost all that time again

 

[theyoungest]

Samuel Sánchez is an excellent descender, and there aren't too many in the péloton that can go with him if he really goes full bore. I think he started to on the descent of the Navacerrada in 2009, but unfortunately for him Valverde is one of the few that can go with him (Valverde is a superb descender, especially on technical routes), and after he couldn't distance Valverde he didn't try too hard; Valverde was happy with the GC as it was and the two more or less sat up.

Are there any recent examples of Samu's great descending prowess? What I remember from his descending skills in the Vuelta 2009 is a crash, not much more.

In Paris-Nice a few weeks ago he was out-descended by his own neo-pro teammate on that final stage.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

He attacked in the closing kilometres of the Klasika Primavera after Antón attacked, right at the top of the final climb. He made time up on the descent and held off the bunch, cruising in to the finish. Not an amazing example (the chasing bunch included such noted descenders as Fränk Schleck), but an example nonetheless.

 

[The Hitch]

they made everyone look like total fools especially Samu..

Yes, especially the guy who was the next best climber. They didnt make Menchov look like a fool, or Sastre or Basso or Armstrong or Evans who lost 10 minutes.

No, it was especially Samu they made look like a fool . Priceless.

They were just watching at each other and didn't go full even on the climb. And still they dropped poor Samu.

Of course they did. I never said Schleck couldnt drop Samu at will. I just said its possible that Samu can limit his losses.

limit his losses because in a possible descent and in the tt Samu can take a bit of time from Schleck.

Regardless of whether you think his descending is tragic or not, the hard fact is that he did take a bunch of time out of Schleck and he could do it again.

He probably wont be able to limit his losses enough and Andrew is obviously the big favoruite, but no one ever said Samu was going to match Schleck in the mountains. Like Menchov, if he contends its due to an all round game

 

[El Pistolero]

Yes, especially the guy who was the next best climber. They didnt make Menchov look like a fool, or Sastre or Basso or Armstrong or Evans who lost 10 minutes.

No, it was especially Samu they made look like a fool . Priceless.



Of course they did. I never said Schleck couldnt drop Samu at will. I just said its possible that Samu can limit his losses.

limit his losses because in a possible descent and in the tt Samu can take a bit of time from Schleck.

Regardless of whether you think his descending is tragic or not, the hard fact is that he did take a bunch of time out of Schleck and he could do it again.

He probably wont be able to limit his losses enough and Andrew is obviously the big favoruite, but no one ever said Samu was going to match Schleck in the mountains. Like Menchov, if he contends its due to an all round game

Take Contador out of the picture in that stage and Samu would have even lost more time. And vice versa.

And yes especially Samu. I just found it incredibly funny that he kept coming back on the climb with so much difficulty when they were soft peddling up the climb and playing poker with each other. And everytime they actually started to ride their bike decently it was buh bye Samu. Incredibly funny stage. It's those moments that tell you that Samu will never win the Tour.

I never said his descending is horrible. He's just overrated in it. In 2006 he did some good descends in the Vuelta yes. But now? Haven't seen him do a good descend since a while.

Same goes for Nibali.

 

[The Hitch]

It's those moments that tell you that Samu will never win the Tour.

Not really. Samus whole career tells us he wont win the Tour. The fact that he admits hes aiming for 3rd place and cries that he wants Contador there helps as well.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Quit the trolling. It wasn't like Armstrong on Monte Petrano.

Samu won't win the Tour. He may, if he targets it, win a Vuelta (especially with Valverde out of the picture, since he was better than everybody not named Valverde in '09; depends on the Contador situation though). He's every bit as much of a podium contender as Evans, Menchov or Basso.

They all need certain things to fall into place too. Let's not forget that in the last 2 years Sánchez has been beating Evans in the TTs that count too. So where's Evans going to gain his time on Sánchez? He hasn't outclimbed him recently. He hasn't out-TTed him recently. The descents?

Basso and Menchov have the benefit of having won before. But Basso's TT and descending skills will be a problem in a head-to-head with Samu, while Menchov should be able to either outclimb or out-TT the Asturian he is always liable to crashes, and his descending is shoddy (he was spat out the back of the leaders' group on the descent of the Col de la Bonette-Restefond in '08, dropping back to join the likes of Kirchen, while Valverde left the Kirchen group and caught up to the leaders). And who was it who got on the front and put the pressure on that caused Menchov to be dropped? Samuel Sánchez.

Though that wasn't a particularly good descent of his, the other heads of state - including the Schlecks and Sastre - managed to pull him back once they worked together.

 

[El Pistolero]

Not really. Samus whole career tells us he wont win the Tour. The fact that he admits hes aiming for 3rd place and cries that he wants Contador there helps as well.

And the Giro

Nah, he might be able to win that.

If he's so in love with Contador he might as well go to his team lol. Contador can always use more climbers.

 

[Squire]

Same goes for Nibali.

In this context, I'd say Giro 2010 is fairly recent.

 

[El Pistolero]

In this context, I'd say Giro 2010 is fairly recent.

No, I just think he's overrated. He's a good descender, but nothing special again. + he crashes a lot on descends, at least when I'm watching lol.

From Samu we have actually seen very good descending in the past, but recently not anymore.

They're both overrated, but in a different way. If you get my grip.

It's descenders like Thor that should get more credit. And I've seen some amazing descending from Cuddles as well.

 

[theyoungest]

No, I just think he's overrated. He's a good descender, but nothing special again. + he crashes a lot on descends, at least when I'm watching lol.

From Samu we have actually seen very good descending in the past, but recently not anymore.

They're both overrated, but in a different way. If you get my grip.

It's descenders like Thor that should get more credit. And I've seen some amazing descending from Cuddles as well.

And, of course, what you're actually trying to say is that Gilbert is the most amazing descender of all.

Nibali always crashes on descents... you mean the Giro di Lombardia? Can't think of many other examples.

 

[El Pistolero]

And, of course, what you're actually trying to say is that Gilbert is the most amazing descender of all.

Nibali always crashes on descents... you mean the Giro di Lombardia? Can't think of many other examples.

He also crashed in the Giro in a descend. And no, I didn't mention Gilbert. He's good of course, but no Il Falco.

Thor really beats them all in a descend. Cancellara as well of course, but you just don't see those two descend a lot.

But let's not change the topic shall we, or shall we talk about Gesink's crappy descending?

 

[theyoungest]

He also crashed in the Giro in a descend. And no, I didn't mention Gilbert. He's good of course, but no Il Falco.

Thor really beats them all in a descend. Cancellara as well of course, but you just don't see those two descend a lot.

Nibali crashed in a Giro descent? Ah wait, on the Strade Bianche stage... not sure he could do anything about that.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

No, I just think he's overrated. He's a good descender, but nothing special again. + he crashes a lot on descends, at least when I'm watching lol.

From Samu we have actually seen very good descending in the past, but recently not anymore.

They're both overrated, but in a different way. If you get my grip.

It's descenders like Thor that should get more credit. And I've seen some amazing descending from Cuddles as well.

Thor is an amazing descender. The best in the world, so say the péloton. Evans is a very good descender, but I'd say Valverde's better amongst GC men. And Arroyo made Evans look positively silly on the Mortirolo.

Cancellara descending back into the pack while wearing the yellow jersey in 2009 was poetry in motion though.

Nobody's mentioned Luís León yet either...

 

[El Pistolero]

Thor is an amazing descender. The best in the world, so say the péloton. Evans is a very good descender, but I'd say Valverde's better amongst GC men. And Arroyo made Evans look positively silly on the Mortirolo.

Cancellara descending back into the pack while wearing the yellow jersey in 2009 was poetry in motion though.

Nobody's mentioned Luís León yet either...

Yeah, Arroyo could have pulled a Savoldelli in the Giro if it wasn't for Basso.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yeah, Arroyo could have pulled a Savoldelli in the Giro if it wasn't for Basso.

Or if they'd finished in Edolo like 1997 and didn't have to climb Aprica again. But just like Sestrières in 2005 was the killer after the Colle delle Finestre, the easy climb of Aprica tore things apart from the sheer pain of having to go uphill again.

Just this time it wasn't the leading trio that shattered, it was the chasers led by the maglia rosa who'd been descending like a king.

Arroyo needed to find himself a Mauricio Ardila or a Wim Van Huffel. Evans did a bit but nobody else.

 

[pedaling squares]

I'm not going to move any posts, but seeing as we're in an "Official Schleck thread" let's please discuss a Schleck or two. The 'best descender' thread can be revived if we want to debate who drops best among GT contenders not named Schleck. This may, however, be an appropriate place to discuss the worst descender...

 

[El Pistolero]

I'm not going to move any posts, but seeing as we're in an "Official Schleck thread" let's please discuss a Schleck or two. The 'best descender' thread can be revived if we want to debate who drops best among GT contenders not named Schleck. This may, however, be an appropriate place to discuss the worst descender...

Who will win? Schleck or Gesink?

 

[The Hitch]

Who will win? Schleck or Gesink?

A

Raúl Acosta
Julio César Aguirre
Oscar Álvarez
Carlos Alzate
Santiago Amador
Mauricio Ardila

B

Giovanny Báez
Elkin Barrera
Jair Bernal
José Daniel Bernal
Julio Ernesto Bernal
Santiago Botero
Hernán Buenahora
Roberto "Pajarito" Buitrago

C

Carlos Humberto Cabrera
Hernán Medina Calderón
María Luisa Calle
Rodolfo Camacho
Ángel Camargo
Fernando Camargo
Alex Caño
Félix Cárdenas
Henry Cárdenas
Luis Cárdenas
Leonardo Cardona
Iván Casas
Jaime Castañeda
Héctor Castaño
José Castelblanco
Arles Castro
Wilson Cepeda
Francisco Colorado
Carlos Alberto Contreras
Alejandro Cortés

D

Yeison Delgado
Fabio Duarte
Leonardo Duque

E

Luis Espinosa

F

José Martín Farfán
Alfonso Flórez Ortiz
Edgar Fonseca
Graciano Fonseca
Juan Pablo Forero

G

Jhon García
Ramón Fernando García
Camilo Gómez
G cont.
Rubén Darío Gómez
Alexander González
Chepe González
Fredy González
Luis Alberto González
Víctor Hugo González
Vladimir González
Eduardo Guerrero
Herbert Gutiérrez

H

Humberto Hernández
Jairo Hernández
Elder Herrera
Luis Herrera
Víctor Herrera
Ramón Hoyos

I

José Ibáñez

J

Carlos Jaramillo
Fabio Jaramillo

L

Gregorio Ladino
Luis Felipe Laverde
Luis Alfredo López (cyclist)
Álvaro Lozano

M

Ruber Marín
Jorge Humberto Martínez
Álvaro Mejía
Ubaldo Mesa
Urbelino Mesa
Freddy Moncada
Gerardo Moncada
Freddy Montaña
Raúl Montaña
Rafael Montiel
Néstor Mora
Federico Muñoz
Hernán Darío Muñoz

N

Leonardo Narváez
Mauricio Neiza
Libardo Niño
Miguel Ángel Niño
Rafael Antonio Niño
Víctor Niño

O

Israel Ochoa
Edwin Orozco
Mauricio Ortega
Germán Ospina
Jorge Otálvaro

P

Héctor Palacio
Fabio Parra
Iván Parra
John Parra
Hernán Patiño
Walter Pedraza
Flober Peña
Víctor Hugo Peña
Marlon Pérez Arango
Jairo Pérez

R

Alejandro Ramírez
Dubán Ramírez
Juan Diego Ramírez
Martín Ramírez
Julio César Rangel
Efraím Rico
Daniel Rincón
Oliverio Rincón
José Robles
Martín Emilio Rodríguez
Nelson Rodríguez Serna
Alexis Rojas
Weimar Roldán
Celio Roncancio
Edgar Humberto Ruiz

S

Raúl Saavedra
Jairo Salas
César Salazar
Miguel Ángel Sanabria
Pedro Julio Sánchez
Ismael Sarmiento
José Serpa
Álvaro Sierra
Carlos Silva
Mauricio Soler
Javier Suárez

T

Efraín Forero Triviño

U

Rigoberto Urán

V

Jefferson Vargas
Nélson Vargas
Óscar Vargas

Z

Argiro Zapata
Javier Zapata
Javier de Jesús Zapata


Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Colombian_cyclists

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I don't think Gesink is a bad descender... recently he even briefly dropped Visconti in a descent...
it's more that, when he is exhausted (f.ex in PN 2008) he can't descend (eg. lack of power = lack of concentration needed for descent)

 

[Christian]

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Colombian_cyclists

Ouch, some people are gonna be mad.

Andy's motto before heading into a descent is "gimme a dime so I can call my mother" and Fränk's is "no matter what, you always get down somehow".

Peronally I have to say I really dislike descents and I'm glad I don't have to ride them full speed!

 

[El Pistolero]

Ouch, some people are gonna be mad.

Andy's motto before heading into a descent is "gimme a dime so I can call my mother" and Fränk's is "no matter what, you always get down somehow".

Peronally I have to say I really dislike descents and I'm glad I don't have to ride them full speed!

Couldn't be closer to the truth Frankie boy.