AP: CONI prez. Ettore Torri says legalize Doping !

[Chuffy]

Cycling should be a noble sport, instead it represents all that is wrong with sport - anything goes in the race for money, glory and power and screw those who are stupid enough to follow the rules.

That's been the case since the end of the 19th century.

Having said that, if you take out the doping then cycling is often more ethical than many other sports. Witness riders waiting when a rival has a crash or mechanical (the furore surrounding Chaingate only confirms this) or working together in adversity. Other sports, say football, don't have the same doping problem, but they are riven with corruption off the field (bungs, inflated fees for agents, match fixing) and petty cheating on it (diving, professional fouls). Doping aside (and it's a bit omission I admit) cycling doesn't have a problem with that kind of behaviour.

Despite it's desperate addiction to PEDs, cycling does have it's own sporting nobility.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Italy's anti-doping prosecutor is convinced that all cyclists are doping, a belief reinforced by four years of work as one of the world leaders in the battle against drugs in sports.

Torri said legalizing doping would be a possible solution if that didn't harm the health of cyclists, noting that anti-doping authorities prosecute only a small percentage of offenders.

"It's not fair when we single out one rider in a 100," he said. "If the other 99 have doped too but are not prosecuted, it's not fair."

AP: http://www.newser.com/article/d9ilmg5g0/ap-interview-coni-anti-doping-prosecutor-ettore-torri-convinced-all-cyclists-still-on-drugs.html


Finally, we are almost there if you ask me, don't you agree ?

I agree it's unfair to clean cyclists, but I totally diagree with legalizing doping. Like it or not, what's allowed at the pro level filters down to the youth. I don't want my kid or my kids kids doping at an early age because it's allowed at the pro level. I have a real concern for the health of our youth. Legalizing doping would just be an erosion of general principle of good sport, which is to race clean.

 

[Benotti69]

Legalising doping would lead to a freak show. THe boundaries would be pushed beyond the extremes. It's better to have a ban and them cheating by micro dosing then having people out there trying to come up with new drugs because it is 'legalised'.

Letting them take certain quantities of EPO, Clen and a myriad of other substances would mean they would take twice or triple the amount and try to hide the levels above the controls....

i believe Torri was being sarcastic.

 

[Willy_Voet]

How would one legalize doping? For pros only? U23s? Stagiares?

What if my 17 year old wants to make the leap up to U23 next year? Time to do a little juice to get on that big U23 development team?

----

Actually, I think it's a great idea. A donkey like me who has terrible #'s but can finish local races with the pros would benefit the most from a program. Bring it on! I wanna ride with Lance.

 

[AnythingButKestrel]

Another anti-doping commissioner who thinks doping should be legalized:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/should-we-allow-drugs-in-sports/

The doping bothers me, for sure. One can't even compete on a local level without going up against hard-core juicers. That said, the war on doping has been no more successful than the larger War on Drugs(TM) and only seems to be creating powerful cartels.

 

[MarkvW]

That's been the case since the end of the 19th century.

Having said that, if you take out the doping then cycling is often more ethical than many other sports. Witness riders waiting when a rival has a crash or mechanical (the furore surrounding Chaingate only confirms this) or working together in adversity. Other sports, say football, don't have the same doping problem, but they are riven with corruption off the field (bungs, inflated fees for agents, match fixing) and petty cheating on it (diving, professional fouls). Doping aside (and it's a bit omission I admit) cycling doesn't have a problem with that kind of behaviour.

Despite it's desperate addiction to PEDs, cycling does have it's own sporting nobility.

You call it nobility; I call it herd mentality. The peloton often behaves like a herd of cows. "Everybody does it" statements are a classic example. So are the over-praised expressions of "sportsmanship." Generally, acts of waiting are just demonstrations that the waiter belongs in the herd. They demonstrate conformity to the herd norm. These racers will physically damage themselves to retain their place in the herd. The racers--who suffer the cost and aftermath of doping--will never address the problem themselves, for that would put them outside the herd.

Either some outside entity looks out for the health of these herd animals, or they will hurt themselves. My hat is off to Mr. Torri.

 

[VeloFidelis]

You call it nobility; I call it herd mentality. The peloton often behaves like a herd of cows. "Everybody does it" statements are a classic example. So are the over-praised expressions of "sportsmanship." Generally, acts of waiting are just demonstrations that the waiter belongs in the herd. They demonstrate conformity to the herd norm. These racers will physically damage themselves to retain their place in the herd. The racers--who suffer the cost and aftermath of doping--will never address the problem themselves, for that would put them outside the herd.

Either some outside entity looks out for the health of these herd animals, or they will hurt themselves. My hat is off to Mr. Torri.

If you have bona fide information that PED use is shortening careers or the life span of professional cyclists, then I would love to see it. It's been quite a while since a pro has died in his sleep, but not so long ago that is was fairly common. The Blood Passport is designed to monitor the health of the riders, not really as a means to detect and enforce doping regulations. If the riders are using it to monitor and maintain healthy levels of predetermined blood values then the program is a success. Maybe not politically, but in reality.

There are two camps among knowledgeable cycling fans; those who believe that doping is a scourge that can be eliminated through legislation, regulation, and enforcement,... good luck with that. The other believes that there is a component of human nature in the competitive athlete that will always strive to find any advantage, and will not be deterred if he thinks his competitor possesses it.

Other sports have doping problems on a similar level to professional cycling, without the public image problem. Their fans are happy and the sports are thriving. They don't endorse PED use among their athletes, they just don't regulate or enforce to the same level as cycling. Which sport is the winner in that equation?

We can stand on the moral high ground of regulation and enforcement and watch the credibility, the business, and the sport of cycling spiral down the toilet as we uphold an uncompromising position. Or we can adopt a more realistic perspective that keeping the athletes blood values inside healthy and more easily monitored and enforceable margins is a more attainable goal; One which does not criminalize athletes, ruin careers, and drive both sponsors and fans away from the sport.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If you have bona fide information that PED use is shortening careers or the life span of professional cyclists, then I would love to see it. It's been quite a while since a pro has died in his sleep, but not so long ago that is was fairly common. The Blood Passport is designed to monitor the health of the riders, not really as a means to detect and enforce doping regulations. If the riders are using it to maintain healthy levels of predetermined blood values then the program is a success. Maybe not politically, but in reality.

There are two camps among knowledgeable cycling fans; those who believe that doping is a scourge that can be eliminated through legislation, regulation, and enforcement,... good luck with that. The other believes that there is a component of human nature in the competitive athlete that will always strive to find any advantage, and will not be deterred if he thinks his competitor possesses it.

Other sports have doping problems on a similar level to professional cycling, without the public image problem. Their fans are happy and the sports are thriving. They don't endorse PED use among their athletes, they just don't regulate or enforce to the same level as cycling. Which sport is the winner in that equation?

We can stand on the moral high ground of regulation and enforcement and watch the credibility, the business, and the sport of cycling spiral down the toilet as we uphold an uncompromising position. Or we can adopt a more realistic perspective that keeping the athletes blood values inside healthy and more easily monitored and enforceable margins is a more attainable goal; One which does not criminalize athletes, ruin careers, and drive both sponsors and fans away from the sport.

To the highlighted - I can only see two ways that can be incorporated.
Either legalize PED's which would make the sport nothing more than a chemistry test - I can't see to many sponsors signing up for that.

The other is the UCI try to hide the abuse and keep everything 'in-house' -which is in effect what the UCI has tried to do with the Biological Passport.
But cycling's biggest problem is that it is now subject to investigation from outside agencies - so when there is another Police bust it exposes the fraud in administration as well as the PED abuse.

 

[indurain666]

If so many riders are clean then they need to stand up and be counted like Pinotti has. They need to shout about the unfairness. Instead we have guys like David Millar protesting Contador's innocence saying he didn't dope because he's a "gentleman". It's times like this I wish Wiggins was still allowed on Twitter.

Marco Pinotti and Cristophe Bassons clean??? LMAO, what a bunch of hypocrites.

 

[indurain666]

To the highlighted - I can only see two ways that can be incorporated.
Either legalize PED's which would make the sport nothing more than a chemistry test - I can't see to many sponsors signing up for that.

The other is the UCI try to hide the abuse and keep everything 'in-house' -which is in effect what the UCI has tried to do with the Biological Passport.
But cycling's biggest problem is that it is now subject to investigation from outside agencies - so when there is another Police bust it exposes the fraud in administration as well as the PED abuse.

Exactly, good point. Back in the late 90s, UCI knew EPO usage was ridiculously widespread among pro cyclists, so they put the 50% rule, which was their way of standardizing the usage. Unfortunately, **** hit the fan big time with the Festina affair as it got out of UCI regulation boundaries with Voet basically smuggling drugs and becoming a criminal investigation. IMO, if Festina would not have happened, cycling would have quite different in the 00s.

 

[thehog]

Exactly, good point. Back in the late 90s, UCI knew EPO usage was ridiculously widespread among pro cyclists, so they put the 50% rule, which was their way of standardizing the usage. Unfortunately, **** hit the fan big time with the Festina affair as it got out of UCI regulation boundaries with Voet basically smuggling drugs and becoming a criminal investigation. IMO, if Festina would not have happened, cycling would have quite different in the 00s.

Problem being 9 times out of 10 it's something other than a positive test that reveals the doping. The UCI by covering most of this up keep getting egg on their faces because they have to explain a situation whereby the dope tests are meant to track and pick up.

As you say and I've said in the past the bio-passport is not a anti-doping tool it's a dope control program. It's a way that the UCI can track the dope use so it doesn't get out of hand like with OP.

 

[rolfrae]

Marco Pinotti and Cristophe Bassons clean??? LMAO, what a bunch of hypocrites.

When did I mentioned Bassons? I didn't but will now. Bassons was clean and that's why his career was so short. How does that make him a hypocrite?

 

[VeloFidelis]

To the highlighted - I can only see two ways that can be incorporated.
Either legalize PED's which would make the sport nothing more than a chemistry test - I can't see to many sponsors signing up for that.

The other is the UCI try to hide the abuse and keep everything 'in-house' -which is in effect what the UCI has tried to do with the Biological Passport.
But cycling's biggest problem is that it is now subject to investigation from outside agencies - so when there is another Police bust it exposes the fraud in administration as well as the PED abuse.

To the highlighted: The National Football League

I see a third option. Don't test for PED's. Only monitor blood values. Who cares what your using? Use too much and you are out of your next race. If the authorities want to criminalize their behavior, the UCI does not have to provide the evidence.

I know this sounds extreme but consider. When the average NFL fan hears that his favorite player is positive for steroids and is out for several games, he shrugs and moves on. He does not hold a grudge, and the player's career is not destroyed (not the first time at least). the fan has no expectation reinforced by Pro Football that this is the worst possible offense.

His expectation is that they all do it... and yes they probably do. But where have I heard that before?...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

To the highlighted: The National Football League

I see a third option. Don't test for PED's. Only monitor blood values. Who cares what your using? Use too much and you are out of your next race. If the authorities want to criminalize their behavior, the UCI does not have to provide the evidence.

I know this sounds extreme but consider. When the average NFL fan hears that his favorite player is positive for steroids and is out for several games, he shrugs and moves on. He does not hold a grudge, and the player's career is not destroyed (not the first time at least). the fan has no expectation reinforced by Pro Football that this is the worst possible offense.

His expectation is that they all do it... and yes they probably do. But where have I heard that before?...

NFL is a rich self regulated sport - so it can hide PED use unlike the UCI. As you point out the 'bans' are short, which is why the average fan shrugs it off. But even still there is growing disquiet about the PED use in that sport.

As regards sponsors, NFL is followed as a team sport - so their fanbase is different. They follow and stick with teams - for better or worse, and it is that loyalty that entices sponsors.

Cycling is followed differently - most have favourite riders not teams.
Also the UCI relies on a large part of its budget from the IOC - which is dependant on being part of the WADA code.

Your third option is basically what there is now - just moving the goalposts. You are still relying on tests to impliment a standard, if the test is done by the UCI it will fail because of manipulation, favouritism and corruption - just like now.

 

[rhubroma]

You call it nobility; I call it herd mentality. The peloton often behaves like a herd of cows. "Everybody does it" statements are a classic example. So are the over-praised expressions of "sportsmanship." Generally, acts of waiting are just demonstrations that the waiter belongs in the herd. They demonstrate conformity to the herd norm. These racers will physically damage themselves to retain their place in the herd. The racers--who suffer the cost and aftermath of doping--will never address the problem themselves, for that would put them outside the herd.

Either some outside entity looks out for the health of these herd animals, or they will hurt themselves. My hat is off to Mr. Torri.

In a word omerta. In an example Armstrong-Simeoni. I'll never forget his fellow countryman going up to Simeoni after that race and basically telling him that he's scum, that he "spits on the plate he eats from!" The majority of pro cyclists are anything but noble beings.

 

[Benotti69]

Problem being 9 times out of 10 it's something other than a positive test that reveals the doping. The UCI by covering most of this up keep getting egg on their faces because they have to explain a situation whereby the dope tests are meant to track and pick up.

As you say and I've said in the past the bio-passport is not a anti-doping tool it's a dope control program. It's a way that the UCI can track the dope use so it doesn't get out of hand like with OP.

and it is a way the UCI can threaten riders and teams to do its bidding....not really what the sport needs apart from the other crap of doping....a mafia style federation

 

[Benotti69]

Marco Pinotti and Cristophe Bassons clean??? LMAO, what a bunch of hypocrites.

Got evidence to prove they doped?

I suppose Basson's would rather be dealing than working for the ministry of youth and sport at Bordeaux, in charge of drug tests or maybe he is dealing to the youth of Bordeaux so expect a few French TdF winners to arrive soon!

 

[fatandfast]

If you have bona fide information that PED use is shortening careers or the life span of professional cyclists, then I would love to see it. It's been quite a while since a pro has died in his sleep, but not so long ago that is was fairly common. The Blood Passport is designed to monitor the health of the riders, not really as a means to detect and enforce doping regulations. If the riders are using it to monitor and maintain healthy levels of predetermined blood values then the program is a success. Maybe not politically, but in reality.

There are two camps among knowledgeable cycling fans; those who believe that doping is a scourge that can be eliminated through legislation, regulation, and enforcement,... good luck with that. The other believes that there is a component of human nature in the competitive athlete that will always strive to find any advantage, and will not be deterred if he thinks his competitor possesses it.

Other sports have doping problems on a similar level to professional cycling, without the public image problem. Their fans are happy and the sports are thriving. They don't endorse PED use among their athletes, they just don't regulate or enforce to the same level as cycling. Which sport is the winner in that equation?

We can stand on the moral high ground of regulation and enforcement and watch the credibility, the business, and the sport of cycling spiral down the toilet as we uphold an uncompromising position. Or we can adopt a more realistic perspective that keeping the athletes blood values inside healthy and more easily monitored and enforceable margins is a more attainable goal; One which does not criminalize athletes, ruin careers, and drive both sponsors and fans away from the sport.

NFL,NBA and NHL all have extensive information on PED use and the big impact it has on lifespan as well as the quality of life for athletes post and present. They don't air their dirty laundry only when forced to in court when players,loved ones and agents sue organizations using workmen comp laws. Cycling is so disorganized and fragmented that there is nobody to sue. Most of the companies that are formed as bike teams go under after a couple of years and start over as the same thing under a different name.The players unions of other sports know the parameters of every drug to be tested for to the nano or picogram. Contador as an example should have had a threshold amount not any minute amount. The union is so weak and disorganized that the sanctions against riders are handed out by federations as far away as China. The athlete competes,is paid,resides in Europe or the US and is punished in China..? The riders need to start a union and set rules that are agreed to and enforced not some sliding scale picogram bs. If the NFL pulled this kind of sh-t and started a sliding scale for pot and coke use down to the picogram you would see wide scale forfeits throughout the league.

 

[DAOTEC]

Hidiho there we go "Rawhide"

Italy's cycling czar Fanini says Nobel price for Torri

Head 'em up, move 'em out, Move 'em on, head 'em out Rawhide!

Mercoledì 6 Ottobre | 19:21

Ivano Fanini: «Torri ha ragione, è da premio Nobel»

Source: http://www.tuttobiciweb.it/index.php?page=news&cod=33308&tp=n

Good comments by the way from the Italian readers, they know !

 

[VeloFidelis]

NFL is a rich self regulated sport - so it can hide PED use unlike the UCI. As you point out the 'bans' are short, which is why the average fan shrugs it off. But even still there is growing disquiet about the PED use in that sport.

As regards sponsors, NFL is followed as a team sport - so their fanbase is different. They follow and stick with teams - for better or worse, and it is that loyalty that entices sponsors.

Cycling is followed differently - most have favourite riders not teams.
Also the UCI relies on a large part of its budget from the IOC - which is dependant on being part of the WADA code.

Your third option is basically what there is now - just moving the goalposts. You are still relying on tests to impliment a standard, if the test is done by the UCI it will fail because of manipulation, favouritism and corruption - just like now.

There should be bloody outrage about the use of PED's in football. The average life span(age at which they die) of the former player is 56 (52 for Lineman). But there is not... not really. The precepts of the game are flawed beyond belief, but still we watch it... I watch it, despite having sacrificed the better part of a knee to it in the early 70's. I am a fan, but I don't follow a team

I disagree with you on your characterization of NFL vs. cycling fans. I think that most fans in any sport know enough to keep them involved and only a small percentage pay enough attention to know the seedier details. If the NFL and sporting press vilified drug use as vociferously as the cycling press, there would be a stronger reaction to the status quo. But it is not in there best interests to do so, and they don't. We can agree on the net affect. Is it in our best interests to rail so emphatically against it is cycling?

Are we as fans helping to facilitate the demise of cycling by being so fervent in a desire to see PED's eradicated from our sport? Because the never will be. And every notable doping positive increases the percentage of fans and potential sponsors who hold cycling in a negative light.

If the blood values dictated by the biological passport are designed to keep a rider from doing irreparable damage to himself why isn't that enough? There are plenty of ways to get hurt, even killed in cycling. No imposed restrictions keep them from crashing on a high speed descent. "Preparation" on the part of the Pro has always been part of the Sport. If it can be contained inside safe parameters and become a less an issue, wouldn't that be better for the sport?

I am not an advocate of doping, just a student of human nature. I support legalizing marijuana and prostitution for the same reasons. Not because I partake, but simply because criminalizing them is as ineffective as policing PED's among athletes. It would seem that Mr. Torri has reached a similar conclusion, and he is much closer to roots of the problem than we will ever be.

 

[Anonymous]

right....

Armstrong is a great rider and if he doped he is still a great rider. Same goes for Ulrich, Kloeden, Vino, F. Schleck, Contador, Valverde, etc. Even Frank Vanderbrouke and Museaw.
If you do not know what champions these guys are well, oh well.

and Stalin, Mao, Hilter and Franco (among others) were great leaders. It is only their dead enemies who might disagree.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

There should be bloody outrage about the use of PED's in football. The average life span(age at which they die) of the former player is 56 (52 for Lineman). But there is not... not really. The precepts of the game are flawed beyond belief, but still we watch it... I watch it, despite having sacrificed the better part of a knee to it in the early 70's. I am a fan, but I don't follow a team

I disagree with you on your characterization of NFL vs. cycling fans. I think that most fans in any sport know enough to keep them involved and only a small percentage pay enough attention to know the seedier details. If the NFL and sporting press vilified drug use as vociferously as the cycling press, there would be a stronger reaction to the status quo. But it is not in there best interests to do so, and they don't. We can agree on the net affect. Is it in our best interests to rail so emphatically against it is cycling?

Are we as fans helping to facilitate the demise of cycling by being so fervent in a desire to see PED's eradicated from our sport? Because the never will be. And every notable doping positive increases the percentage of fans and potential sponsors who hold cycling in a negative light.

If the blood values dictated by the biological passport are designed to keep a rider from doing irreparable damage to himself why isn't that enough? There are plenty of ways to get hurt, even killed in cycling. No imposed restrictions keep them from crashing on a high speed descent. "Preparation" on the part of the Pro has always been part of the Sport. If it can be contained inside safe parameters and become a less an issue, wouldn't that be better for the sport?

I am not an advocate of doping, just a student of human nature. I support legalizing marijuana and prostitution for the same reasons. Not because I partake, but simply because criminalizing them is as ineffective as policing PED's among athletes. It would seem that Mr. Torri has reached a similar conclusion, and he is much closer to roots of the problem than we will ever be.

To come to your conclusions you are omitting some key points.

Firstly - not everyone is doping or wants to dope - so by (in effect) legalizing doping you are forcing those who do not want to partake to either do so or leave the sport.
The riders that want to dope have already found ways to manipulate the Bio Passport - and would continue to do so.

Again you mention 'eradicate' PED's - I have not said that, nor do i believe it is attainable. But again you are omitting the fact that outside agencies are now involved in targeting cycling and all the biggest scandals have come from that.
I really don't understand your position on the fans (negative) input - the genie is out of the bottle and 10 years of doing nothing has only facilitated the charade.

I agree with your view on marijuana and prostitution, but neither has anything remotely in common with PED's in sports. If someone wants to smoke a joint it has no bearing on me, but if an athlete is competing against an athlete on PED's it has a direct effect on them.


Fair enough on my view of NFL - I do not watch or follow it in any way. But as I mentioned on another thread, contact sports that require strength like NFL or Rugby have a higher abuse of PED's than cycling.

 

[icefire]

Does anyone know if there's been any reaction to this statement from individuals or teams?

"I'm not the only one saying it. Lately, all of the cyclists I've interrogated have said that everyone dopes," the 78-year-old Ettore Torri told The Associated Press on Tuesday in his first interview in two years.

 

[hrotha]

Does anyone know if there's been any reaction to this statement from individuals or teams?

Several riders have tweeted that they're offended, that Torri only talks to dopers and that he has no idea. Martens, Pinotti, Nibali, Guarnieri and probably others.

 

[VeloFidelis]

To come to your conclusions you are omitting some key points.

Firstly - not everyone is doping or wants to dope - so by (in effect) legalizing doping you are forcing those who do not want to partake to either do so or leave the sport.
The riders that want to dope have already found ways to manipulate the Bio Passport - and would continue to do so.

Again you mention 'eradicate' PED's - I have not said that, nor do i believe it is attainable. But again you are omitting the fact that outside agencies are now involved in targeting cycling and all the biggest scandals have come from that.
I really don't understand your position on the fans (negative) input - the genie is out of the bottle and 10 years of doing nothing has only facilitated the charade.

I agree with your view on marijuana and prostitution, but neither has anything remotely in common with PED's in sports. If someone wants to smoke a joint it has no bearing on me, but if an athlete is competing against an athlete on PED's it has a direct effect on them.


Fair enough on my view of NFL - I do not watch or follow it in any way. But as I mentioned on another thread, contact sports that require strength like NFL or Rugby have a higher abuse of PED's than cycling.

You cannot manipulate the Biological Passport. You can only manipulate your own blood values so as to conform to, or not stand out as suspicious. If the Bio Passport is changing behavior among racers then it is already more effective than any previous legislation has been. If they are using it as their guideline to stay under the radar, I would call that a success. This is what it was designed to do.

The position on the fan input is that too many are trying to put the genie back in the bottle. I say let him stay out. If attitudes at the highest level of the sport changed (as with Mr. Torri) and the demonization of "preparation" diminished the sport would likely benefit in the public arena. The irony is that fans have been applauding doped results for decades, and now the want accountability from individuals who have inherited a corrupt system.

As to marijuana and prostitution; of course they have nothing to do with PED's but they have everything to do with human nature. No amount of legislation will dissuade people from partaking in either one. and neither will it dissuade cyclist from PED use.

So I say decriminalize Pot and tax it. Lord knows we can use another revenue stream. Legalize prostitution and apply acceptable public health standards to keep people safe. And decriminalize PED's and hold athletes to a standard enforced through the Bio Passport, and let them control there own destiny. It seems a better alternative to forcing talented riders out of the sport in disgrace.