Ardennes Classics Discussion thread

[Ferminal]

oh I am not faulting evans, rather ac.
Tho evans screwed up on the zoncolan at the giro. Should have gone at this own pace.

AC a couple times at the tour last year could have benefited from better tactics imo. And F-W he screwed up majorly.

Yeh I know, it was more in response to the post you quoted

Evans blowing up on big climbs (he blew up worse on Mortirolo ) and not pacing himself is always going to stick with him, it's not necessarily a tactical choice, just something within him that he can't control.

 

[The Hitch]

Yes, those 10 seconds he got on Andy were such an epic fail.

It only made sure he had the yellow jersey on stage 15 and thus he was able to start last in the time trial. Who knows, might have won him the Tour

Dumb dumb Contador!

There's a reason why Contador left Astana and it's called Vino. You can't take on the Tour effectively with having to worry if some old dude wins a stage. Vino doing random attacks in the Tour instead of actually helping Contador on the other hand were tactically brilliant

He had more than 10 seconds at the top of the climb. It was then up to him if he wanted to get Vino a stage win, get the stage for himself or increase on his lead. He did neither, and AS felt very relieved to have survived what couild have been a very bad loss, with a minor scare.

And getting Vino a stage would have been absolutely worth it. By escaping in the break and only about 5 minutes behind on GC, Saxo bank had to work their assess of to keep the gap down.

On the other end Vino was puling the break on his own. Saxo were so exhaustred by this effort that other teams had to come to help them out. It totaly crushed Andys team for the rest of the Tour. Waiting for VIno, or even not attacking in Mende would have been a price worth paying.

 

[El Pistolero]

Saxo's team was destroyed that day no matter who won. Vino got a stage win, with Contador marking everything behind him. Just like he did for him in LBL. He basically put Vino in a seat at LBL a couple of times. Why whine? Like I said, getting on old fart a stage win is just not important for Contador and he will never care. All he wants is full support no matter what. That's not too much to ask for a triple Tour winner now is it. I can fully understand Contador is sick and tired of having these old farts in his team putting pressure on him.

 

[rxgqgxnyfz]

All he wants is full support no matter what. That's not too much to ask for a triple Tour winner now is it. I can fully understand Contador is sick and tired of having these old farts in his team putting pressure on him.

Whut.

Ok, i will re-read it again.

No, it isn't better on second reading.

Whut.

Vino putting pressure on Contador?

It seems our poster made himself to forget stage 3 (and many others instances of Vino doing the team thing and going up and down the peloton to provide Alberto some water, repeatedly) because the events of it contradict his little model of world he imagined in his mind about the feelings of the guy he never even met (despite bearing his nickname as an alias).

 

[The Hitch]

Saxo's team was destroyed that day no matter who won. Vino got a stage win, with Contador marking everything behind him. Just like he did for him in LBL. He basically put Vino in a seat at LBL a couple of times. Why whine? Like I said, getting on old fart a stage win is just not important for Contador and he will never care. All he wants is full support no matter what. That's not too much to ask for a triple Tour winner now is it. I can fully understand Contador is sick and tired of having these old farts in his team putting pressure on him.

Are the agist derrogatory remarks neccesary?

And Saxos team was destroyed because Vino went off the front and got himself in a break.
Saxos team was destroyed because VIno had kept himself high in the GC up untill then, making himself an important player.
Saxos team was destroyed because they spent the preceeding 70km using up their whole team to bring back Vino.

All Vino.

Lets not forget who paced Contador stone after stone, cobble after cobble, all the way on stage 3.

You cant deny Conti had hisself a superdomestique. The best domestique of the Tour.

As for the stage win the next day, yes that was all Contador Vino would have had no chance to stay away if COntador didnt quickly move up to the front.

Wake up. He won the stage by 13 seconds. You can make a bit more room for the few seconds Vino spent celebrating. Was Contadors quick move to the front worth 13 seconds? It could have been useful, but in the end it wasnt.

But your bizzare "old fart" remarks have strayed us from our path, which is that in Mende, and in FW Contador made tactical mistakes.

 

[The Hitch]

Heres a little el Pickle gem some of you might enjoy.

Here is Pisti saying that finishing 3rd means you could not have been tactically wrong

Yes, because getting third on your first serious try at a classic is tactically screwing things up

And here he is just yesterday talking about how stupid a rider who finished 3rd in another race was.

Praise Cancellara all you want, but I don't praise stupidness.

Ironically its the same mistake. Going to early, but whereas Contador could not have been stupid because he finished 3rd, Cancellara was stupid, because he finished, ummmm, 3rd

 

[nvpacchi]

Heres a little el Pickle gem some of you might enjoy.

Here is Pisti saying that finishing 3rd means you could not have been tactically wrong



And here he is just yesterday talking about how stupid a rider who finished 3rd in another race was.




Ironically its the same mistake. Going to early, but whereas Contador could not have been stupid because he finished 3rd, Cancellara was stupid, because he finished, ummmm, 3rd

El Pistolero's comeback will be somewhere along the lines of RvV and FW are 2 different races and cannot be compared...

But I guess that makes Gilbert stupid too for finishing 3 in RvV 2x in a row....I mean twice??? shouldn't he have learned the first time

 

[El Pistolero]

Heres a little el Pickle gem some of you might enjoy.

Here is Pisti saying that finishing 3rd means you could not have been tactically wrong



And here he is just yesterday talking about how stupid a rider who finished 3rd in another race was.




Ironically its the same mistake. Going to early, but whereas Contador could not have been stupid because he finished 3rd, Cancellara was stupid, because he finished, ummmm, 3rd

That was refering to Nick Nuyens --> It would have been stupid to follow Cancellara because he can't. Next time, take the whole quote will ya. I wouldn't be prasing Nick if he tried to follow Cancellara. Now I do, because he rode a tactically great race.

Both in 2009 and 2010 Gilbert clearly wasn't the strongest, so he couldn't win no matter what tactics he would use that day. In 2011 Flanders, Cancellara was clearly the strongest and got third. If he would've attacked on the Muur, Cancellara would have won. End of story.

 

[The Hitch]

That was refering to Nick Nuyens --> It would have been stupid to follow Cancellara because he can't. Next time, take the whole quote will ya. I wouldn't be prasing Nick if he tried to follow Cancellara. Now I do, because he rode a tactically great race.

Here is the full quote. Its from this thread and i see nothing about Nuyens.

Yes, because getting third on your first serious try at a classic is tactically screwing things up

wow lol. Call Contador tactically stupid all you want, but please don't praise Cuddles of being tactically astute as he isn't. Winning F-W is nice and all, but what he did at the Tour de France of 2008 was just epic fail.

 

[El Pistolero]

Here is the full quote. Its from this thread and i see nothing about Nuyens.

I was talking about the other quote of Cancellara, bolded the wrong sentence. Not that hard to figure out I wasn't talking about Cuddles and the Tour, but w/e.

Yes, Cuddles made a big big mistake at Alpe Dhuez that day. He was arguably the strongest that Tour and he lost because for some reason he was looking at the Schlecks.

How that is comparable to attacking a little bit too early in your first serious try in a one day classic I do not know. But clearly Contador is an idiot while Cuddles is a genius. I get it. Never mind it took him countless of times to finally get it right.

Ps: Navarro was the best domestique in the Tour. Not Vino. Vino wants other people to work for him, he doesn't make a secret about it and it's his full right to do so, but I can fully understand why Contador wanted to bail out and look for another team. I can still remember the posts here and in the media when Contador made Vino lose at Mende. "Hahaha, Contador has lost the Tour and Vino will not help him blablabla". You don't want stuff like that on your back when you're riding to win the Tour. So yeah, Vino was probably the main reason Contador left Astana.

 

[The Hitch]

I was talking about the other quote of Cancellara, bolded the wrong sentence. Not that hard to figure out I wasn't talking about Cuddles and the Tour, but w/e.

I wont leave it that easy mate

Here is the original quote

That win wasn't stolen.

Like I said, Nuyens rode 2 hours around with a mechanical. Fabian was an idiot. A solo attack 50km from the finish is next to impossible in Flanders- Cancellara KNOWS THIS. You know, he did the exact same thing in 2007 and died on the Muur.

Why would Nuyens have to follow Cancellara in his suicide attack on the Leberg when he knows he can't? When he knows it's a stupid thing to do?

Praise Cancellara all you want, but I don't praise stupidness. And it would have been stupid from Nuyens to react to Cancellara's attack.

"Praise Cancellara all you wont but I dont praise stupidness" Cancellara is clearly the subject in this sentence. And "I dont praise stupidness" wouldnt make sence if you were talking about Nuyens.


So slight of hand has, failed.

Nice try though

 

[El Pistolero]

I wont leave it that easy mate

Here is the original quote





"Praise Cancellara all you wont but I dont praise stupidness" Cancellara is clearly the subject in this sentence. And "I dont praise stupidness" wouldnt make sence if you were talking about Nuyens.


So slight of hand has, failed.

Nice try though

No, that whole post was made because people called Nuyens not a deserving winner. Why would Nuyens have to try and make the race à la Cancellara when he knows he can't? That would be stupid.

What you did was just pick one sentence and rip it out of context. But yeah, what Cancellara did at Flanders was a tactical mistake. He has the experience in these races, he even has the experience how it feels to try a 50km solo in Flanders(2007), so he should've known better. Classics are all about experience and Contador has far less of that than Cancellara.

What Contador did at FW on his first serious try(and certainly the first time he was in the leading group on the Mur) was pretty good. 3rd place in your first serious try at a classic doesn't come across as stupid to me. If he'll do it 8 more times like last year at the Mur(like Cuddles) then yeah, he's stupid.

 

[The Hitch]

No, that whole post was made because people called Nuyens not a deserving winner. Why would Nuyens have to try and make the race à la Cancellara when he knows he can't? That would be stupid.

What you did was just pick one sentence and rip it out of context.

I dont want to waste this entire thread on discussing what you did or did not mean by that sentence, but in English that sentence can only be interpreted as a critiscism of Cancellara.

It is a new sentence. It is a new paragraph. Cancellara is clearly defined as the Object, the accusative at the start with "Praise Cancellara all you want". The use of but which follows shows that you are continuing to talk about the same thing (Cancellara) and the finaly - "I do not praise stupidness" ties in perfectly with the rest of the sentence, with Cancellara continuing to be the only actor in the sentence.


Also noitce how the words " I dont praise stupidity" have a completely different meaning to what you are now claiming you meant - "Nuyens wold have been stupid not to follow Cancellara".

Completely different meaning.

Like i said, that sentence is very clear, so you wont be able to get away with claiming you meant something else.

 

[El Pistolero]

I dont want to waste this entire thread on discussing what you did or did not mean by that sentence, but in English that sentence can only be interpreted as a critiscism of Cancellara.

It is a new sentence. It is a new paragraph. Cancellara is clearly defined as the Object, the accusative at the start with "Praise Cancellara all you want". The use of but which follows shows that you are continuing to talk about the same thing (Cancellara) and the finaly - "I do not praise stupidness" ties in perfectly with the rest of the sentence, with Cancellara continuing to be the only actor in the sentence.


Also noitce how the words " I dont praise stupidity" have a completely different meaning to what you are now claiming you meant - "Nuyens wold have been stupid not to follow Cancellara".

Completely different meaning.

Like i said, that sentence is very clear, so you wont be able to get away with claiming you meant something else.

And how does Cancellara's Ronde this year compare to Contador's FW last year? Just asking. Did Contador attack on the 50km to go mark at FW or something? Going solo at the Leberg in Vlaanderen is about the same as attacking at the bottom of the Mur in FW. Both things are pretty stupid if you want to go for the victory yeah.

Just want to know what's so stupid about attacking 100m too early in a classic on your first decent attempt after having won 3 stage races already

Also want to know what makes Cuddles so tactically masterminded even though he made the same mistake Contador made countless of times at the very same race.

 

[The Hitch]

Pisti. Lets clear this up. Yes 3rd on FW is impressive but it doesnt mean he didnt make a mistake.

Heres an example. In the 06 winter olympics Lindsey Jacobellis was leading going into the final straight. It was her first olympics. As she went into the final straight she tried a show off trick, failed, fell and ended up getting beaten for the gold medal.

Now everyone else said that doing the trick at that stage, was a mistake. But according to you, she came 2nd on her first try, which is impressive and hence means a mistake could not have been made.

And how does Cancellara's Ronde this year compare to Contador's FW last year? Just asking. Did Contador attack on the 50km to go mark at FW or something?

Just want to know what's so stupid about attacking 100m too early in a classic on your first decent attempt after having won 3 stage races already

Theyre different but the mistake is similar- going to early and your opinions are inconsistant because you use the "he finished 3rd, that is impressive" for Contador but not for Cancellara.

 

[rxgqgxnyfz]

So yeah, Vino was probably the main reason Contador left Astana.

Ah, gotta love those batches of drivel from imagination land that doesn't correlate with anything real (like how Contador started talks with Riis before Tour).

 

[El Pistolero]

Pisti. Lets clear this up. Yes 3rd on FW is impressive but it doesnt mean he didnt make a mistake.

Heres an example. In the 06 winter olympics Lindsey Jacobellis was leading going into the final straight. It was her first olympics. As she went into the final straight she tried a show off trick, failed, fell and ended up getting beaten for the gold medal.

Now everyone else said that doing the trick at that stage, was a mistake. But according to you, she came 2nd on her first try, which is impressive and hence means a mistake could not have been made.




Theyre different but the mistake is similar- going to early and your opinions are inconsistant because you use the "he finished 3rd, that is impressive" for Contador but not for Cancellara.

So did Contador do a wheellie at the Mur now? (I have no clue what sport you're talking about, but doing tricks to show off and then losing is pretty stupid yeah)

Never said Contador didn't make a mistake. It just doesn't make him a tactical idiot as some make him out to be here. If you can win 3 Tours while being a tactical idiot then all that proves is that tactic is non existent in cycling(which it isn't by the way)
There's a difference with making a mistake and being flat out stupid(like the girl in your example)

Contador made a small mistake at a prestigious race while being one of the strongest on his first serious try.
Cancellara made a big mistake at a very prestigious race while clearly being the strongest on his god knows how many tries(and already having made the same mistake before in the race).

So yeah, I still think that quote you picked proves nothing in this discussion. Nor does it add anything to it. It just is not comparable.

 

[El Pistolero]

Ah, gotta love those batches of drivel from imagination land that doesn't correlate with anything real (like how Contador started talks with Riis before Tour).

He already wanted to leave since 2009 mind you.

 

[rxgqgxnyfz]

He already wanted to leave since 2009 mind you.

Exactly my point.

 

[El Pistolero]

Exactly my point.

And don't get me wrong, I know Vino helped him at stage 3 and the stage at Mende. But I think you know how everyone reacted after that stage @Mende. Everyone was saying Contador was f*cked now and that he should look out for Vino. Imagine if you were Contador, would you like to have such pressure on you by A)The media and B) Your own team(Vino) while trying to win the Tour. Hence the reason why he left Astana is called Vino. Astana is made for Vino, not for Contador. That's no secret, that's not an insult, it's the truth.

 

[rxgqgxnyfz]

Everyone was saying Contador was f*cked now and that he should look out for Vino.

Idiots who had no idea how things between Vino and Contador were or idiots who wanted them to fail on the face for daring to win against all odds are not everyone.

And people who said that we shoud look out for Vino attacking GC were twice the idiots because he already lost quite a lot of time (because of doing all that supporting, mind you) and gained a mere 13 seconds.

And Alberto would be even a bigger idiot if he cared about idiots' press. Here's a hint: he doesn't (not only because he's above but also because his english is simply not good enough to read hate-press from Lance-oriented media). Which he consistently been demonstrating all those years long.

Yeah, and apparently Alberto dislike towards "the old fart" Vino is so strong he declined his offer to make the last presentation at Astana in September of 2010 while already technically being Saxobank rider.

...

Except that he didn't declined and was there. And tolerated my mumbling while i was asking him a question and shaked my sweating hand (i still feel bad about it).

So yeah, no. You simply making things up.

 

[El Pistolero]

You do know Contador's opinion about Astana right? It's not a pretty opinion.
Also never said anything about them disliking each other. I'm pretty sure Gilbert and Cuddles don't hate each other yet Cuddles left to another team.

2 champions in one team usually doesn't work very well.

 

[rxgqgxnyfz]

You do know Contador's opinion about Astana right? It's not a pretty opinion.

The opinion he (or, rather his agent/brother) started to express AFTER he moved to Saxobank.

So yeah, you keep making no sense.

And - anyway - why people who came to this thread wanting to read about Ardennes have to observe you madly wriggling around trying to save at least something of the fantasies you keep presenting as facts?

 

[El Pistolero]

The opinion he (or, rather his agent/brother) started to express AFTER he moved to Saxobank.

So yeah, you keep making no sense.

And - anyway - why people who came to this thread wanting to read about Ardennes have to observe you madly wriggling around trying to save at least something of the fantasies you keep presenting of facts?

Yeah, because he didn't have to worry about Astana anymore

And I'm pretty sure it's Conti's own opinion, in the interview he did with Sporza(and not his brother as you make it out to be)

 

[Ryaguas]

Erm...no it isn't. AC is not superior to Evans on those finishes

LOL? The only one who can match Alberto in anything over 20% is Purito or Fuji and if He's on form! Cadel won that FW going with a powerful tempo ride! the same He used in TA 2011... also Cadel knows really well Huy, how many times has He ridden it? 6 or 7 times?

about the thing "Is Contador a tactical genius?"
OFC not... He commited several an important errors last year...
1. Follow every attack in CyL burning himself in the process...
2. Attack too early in FW... was just an amazing display of power but He was short by 50 or 60m... OFC He didn't know very well Huy...
3. He wasn't in the front when they hit the cobbles... Frank crashed and He was behind the cut... thanks god Vino was there with him and hammered 1min? agaisnt the c0cky c0ck...
4. Mende... pretty much discussed... OFC the 10segs were very important but that could have been bigger... what I like about that finish was the "No Gift" policy... but a shame that He didn't use it in Le Tourmalet!
5. No sign for Team Movistar

Yeah... Alberto is not a genius but His talent is incalculable