Are any of the drugs safe?

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Aren't we fortunate to have d...heads like johnny colnago to offset the intelligent posters on this forum. I really wonder why I bother
That's a startling story Beroepsrenner. Hopefully you'll ignore Johnny Colnago and other tools like him and keep posting. Some of us here do appreciate your honesty.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
That's a startling story Beroepsrenner. Hopefully you'll ignore Johnny Colnago and other tools like him and keep posting. Some of us here do appreciate your honesty.
+1 .... Couldn't put it any better than that - well said Alpe.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
That's a startling story Beroepsrenner. Hopefully you'll ignore Johnny Colnago and other tools like him and keep posting. Some of us here do appreciate your honesty.
I'll second that. You bring something to this forum that no one else really does as a professional cyclist and someone with first hand experience of drugs in the professional peloton. Many of us are well read and as informed as we can be, but there's nothing like first hand experience. Forget jokers like Johnny Colnago because they are not representative of the vast majority of posters in the Clinical section.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Interesting take on safety!! Nothing is reall safe...even the air we breath is toxic...we just have mechanisms allowing us to live with it...but ultimately it is at least partly responsible for our passing.

Pharmaceuticals by their very nature are not safe and can have consequences. Some people take certain medications that ultimately have harmful side effects, but these effects are better than the alternative.

While racing in the Netherlands and Belgium in the 80s there seemed to be a lot of what I will call "speed" abuse. And I call it abuse, because to me, if you don't need it for a certified health reason you are abusing it. I never tried it...and never would. I am kinda scared of medications even when I am sick! But many riders did. I never, ever faulted them or held it against them. It was their choice. But an unsafe one to be sure.

I too really appreciate the knowledge Beroepsrenner brings to the table. I have learned and am learning a lot.

Lastly, what is the latest on HGH detection? I am hearing on here that it is still hard to detect...but I thought this had been corrected?
 
May 1, 2009
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Johnny Colnago said:
Awwww...
Here I got you a present.
I'm really confused at why you are attacking someone so personally? And so immaturely? Someone who has only participated in an intelligent and mature way, in an otherwise intelligent and mature conversation.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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boalio said:
I'm really confused at why you are attacking someone so personally? And so immaturely? Someone who has only participated in an intelligent and mature way, in an otherwise intelligent and mature conversation.
I agree Boalio...what is going on here?
 
Jun 13, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
You're going to soon find yourself not welcome around here, if you haven't crossed that line already.
Tough guy forums are that way
--------------->
Feel free to hulk and flex over there
 
Jun 13, 2009
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TRDean said:
I agree Boalio...what is going on here?
I didn't attack anybody, let alone personally. :rolleyes:
You guys are looking for drama where there is none.

edit:

Let's summarize for those who missed the last exciting episode.

Guy posts epic tale of drug use and abuse and how it all went wrong. Including webbed feet. Yikes!
I post one line joke and forget I even posted in thread.
Other guy with impaired humor calls me names.
15 other guys hulk out and/or try and play sheriff.

What have we learned children?
Internet is serious business!
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Johnny Colnago said:
I didn't attack anybody, let alone personally. :rolleyes:
You guys are looking for drama where there is none.

edit:

Let's summarize for those who missed the last exciting episode.

Guy posts epic tale of drug use and abuse and how it all went wrong. Including webbed feet. Yikes!
I post one line joke and forget I even posted in thread.
Other guy with impaired humor calls me names.
15 other guys hulk out and/or try and play sheriff.

What have we learned children?
Internet is serious business!]
Sorry, Johnny, but when these 15 other guys didn't get the joke either, it isn't that funny.
 
Jun 13, 2009
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elapid said:
Sorry, Johnny, but when these 15 other guys didn't get the joke either, it isn't that funny.
Anton La Vey (the guy in the picture) founded the church of satan and was known for questioning if whether or not god does, in fact, hate us.

My avante garde posting style is just too high brow for you plebians.
Please go back to feeling sorry for a guy who knowingly pumped himself full of drugs to the point where his kids belong in a carnival side show.
 
Johnny Colnago said:
Anton La Vey (the guy in the picture) founded the church of satan and was known for questioning if whether or not god does, in fact, hate us.

My avante garde posting style is just too high brow for you plebians.
Please go back to feeling sorry for a guy who knowingly pumped himself full of drugs to the point where his kids belong in a carnival side show.
Or maybe your style just isn't appreciated here.

Susan
 
Mar 10, 2009
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as others have said the problem is no one has done any long term tests on these drugs on healthy athletes to see if there are any long term effects. The answer is we don't know although there are a few ex pros with problems so hopefully that will be enough to put people off trying them out for themselves
 
Jun 29, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Good posts by Red Explosions, M Sport, Lean Mean & Green. That's really the details of the devil right there.

I was going to make a post attempting to point out that properly administered, there should be almost no long--term side effects to taking most HBOC's, or EPO especially something like Dynepo. But we don't actually know that, as there are no trials done to show how administering these drugs - drugs designed to help the sick and infirm - to healthy athletes, at the level they are possibly being administered.

"Safe" is also a somewhat relative term. Michele Ferrari made his infamous claim that EPO was no more harmful than orange juice. Meaning, you drink enough orange juice, and it can be harmful. But that's not exactly correct. It would be much, much easier to kill yourself on EPO than on orange juice for starters. But more importantly, despite Ferrari's logic, he's speculating. He's basing such a claim on a presumption from his medical knowledge, but not on any report or study, as there is none.

So the answer is that even the most "harmless" of doping program, such as a properly monitored athlete microdosing Dynepo, is still taking a risk. The short term that Red, M Sport and Lean, Mean point out in the way of clotting, and in the long term which is an unknown. The drug thus cannot be considered completely "safe".
Good post Alpe.

Ferrari is using smoke and mirrors here to justify the use of EPO by athletes. His orange juice claims are just nonsense. I seriously doubt you could harm yourself by taking loads of orange juice (almost makes me crack up thinking about it), unless you took a continuous infusion IV lol. Let's say someone is dumb enough to want to harm themselves by drinking a tank full of orange juice. Assuming they have normal kidney function, a normal vomiting reflex and are not under the influence of any drugs that interfere with normal physiological responses, they are a) gonna start vomiting after a while; nothing you can do about this as vomiting is an involuntary process, and b) pee out the excess; after all orange juice is little more than water with a bit of citric acid and vitamin C thrown in. That's assuming Ferrari means short term harm. Long term harm is even more unlikely. Even if you drank nothing but orange juice, the only things that are really gonna suffer are your teeth lol.
 
Jul 8, 2009
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red_explosions said:
Good post Alpe.

Ferrari is using smoke and mirrors here to justify the use of EPO by athletes. His orange juice claims are just nonsense. I seriously doubt you could harm yourself by taking loads of orange juice (almost makes me crack up thinking about it), unless you took a continuous infusion IV lol. Let's say someone is dumb enough to want to harm themselves by drinking a tank full of orange juice. Assuming they have normal kidney function, a normal vomiting reflex and are not under the influence of any drugs that interfere with normal physiological responses, they are a) gonna start vomiting after a while; nothing you can do about this as vomiting is an involuntary process, and b) pee out the excess; after all orange juice is little more than water with a bit of citric acid and vitamin C thrown in. That's assuming Ferrari means short term harm. Long term harm is even more unlikely. Even if you drank nothing but orange juice, the only things that are really gonna suffer are your teeth lol.
His point was not that Orange Juice was harmfull/dangerous, but that EPO was just as safe as drinking orange juice, if you know what you are doing....
 
Jun 22, 2009
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DarkWing said:
His point was not that Orange Juice was harmfull/dangerous, but that EPO was just as safe as drinking orange juice, if you know what you are doing....
Correct, he's saying in the hands of a professional like himself EPO is no more dangerous than OJ.

To a large degree it is in agreement with what we've been saying. An answer to the question of safety is "it depends". What I know of Ferrari is that he is very logical but at the same time a little unethical.
 
Jun 29, 2009
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lean said:
Correct, he's saying in the hands of a professional like himself EPO is no more dangerous than OJ.

To a large degree it is in agreement with what we've been saying. An answer to the question of safety is "it depends". What I know of Ferrari is that he is very logical but at the same time a little unethical.
I still say Ferrari is using smoke and mirrors. Whichever way you look at it there ain't no way EPO is as safe as orange juice. EPO is a blood thickener, and we've all talked about that. Orange juice is, well, orange juice.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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red_explosions said:
I still say Ferrari is using smoke and mirrors. Whichever way you look at it there ain't no way EPO is as safe as orange juice. EPO is a blood thickener, and we've all talked about that. Orange juice is, well, orange juice.

Agreed. No matter how brilliant Ferrari is, it does not change the fact that EPO is a powerful drug meant to correct a deficiency in an unhealthy individual and to claim to know its effects on a trained athlete/healthy individual based on relatively few cases is dicey at best. Hence the multiple unexplained "deaths" in young promising athletes during the early stages of EPO's immergence.
 
Jun 29, 2009
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runninboy said:
Agreed. No matter how brilliant Ferrari is, it does not change the fact that EPO is a powerful drug meant to correct a deficiency in an unhealthy individual and to claim to know its effects on a trained athlete/healthy individual based on relatively few cases is dicey at best. Hence the multiple unexplained "deaths" in young promising athletes during the early stages of EPO's immergence.
+1

IMO Ferrari knows full well EPO therapy can never be called 'safe' as such. His orange juice statements are just designed to muddy the waters.

It's like saying having a GA is as safe as drinking OJ as long as it's done by a trained anaesthetist. The fact is it's as safe as it's gonna be, but there is still a real risk you won't wake up from the GA. That's why, in the UK at least, you have to sign a disclaimer before undergoing major surgery. It's the same principle with EPO therapy. I have no doubt Ferrari is a very skilled doctor. Boosting is as safe as it's gonna be with him. But there is still a real risk that your heart is gonna pack up with artificial jacking. For him to compare that with drinking orange juice is disingenuous and an outright lie.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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red_explosions said:
+1

IMO Ferrari knows full well EPO therapy can never be called 'safe' as such. His orange juice statements are just designed to muddy the waters.
agree, his quotation was misinterpreted earlier in the thread, i was just clarifying.

you can think of drug abuse as a spectrum. on one side is 100% responsibility. it is little or no alcohol consumption, no recreational drug use, and only taking medications when necessary while following doctors orders explicitly. on the other side is full on abuse, addiction, and dependency. the average person functions somewhere around the midpoint. a little caffeine dependency in the morning, occassionally having too much to drink at a cocktail party, etc

using a powerful PED like EPO while unsupervised moves you a few big steps away from the midpoint toward the wrong end of the spectrum. if you were to use it while under medical supervision you move one step back toward the healthy end of the spectrum but still well short of the midpoint.

orange juice isn't on the spectrum at all. (there is a level of toxicity with everything including OJ but it isn't even a drug)
 

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