Are any of the drugs safe?

iceaxe

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Jul 10, 2009
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I don't see Lance taking unsafe drugs after surviving cancer. If any of these drugs are safe, I'd probably take them myself. People in our army certainly should take them.
 
Jul 25, 2009
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iceaxe said:
I don't see Lance taking unsafe drugs after surviving cancer. If any of these drugs are safe, I'd probably take them myself. People in our army certainly should take them.
Problem is a product (and drugs) cannot be deemed "safe" just like that.
It often takes years to gauge some of the unforeseen effects.

Another problem is that those products may be diverted from their intended purposes, with totally inappropriate posology.

I suppose mixing certain products may also produce unexpected results.

There were many military studies conducted on drugs in the past decades, and yet no official "PED" came out of this. Tells a lot: it's either too expensive, not safe or consistent enough.
 
Tell us why you think it's not safe?

EPO, Steroids, HGH, blood doping, amphetamines, all of them are safe if administered in a controlled manner with medical supervision.

The United States military DOES have people on drugs. Fighter pilots are well known to use amphetamines. Reported here by the BBC, and you can see some of them openly discussing it in the documentary film, Bigger Stronger Faster.

The US government has a history of running medical experiments on their soldiers. I'm not talking evil underground conspiracy crap here, but it has happened.
 
Jul 25, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Tell us why you think it's not safe?
EPO, Steroids, HGH, blood doping, amphetamines, all of them are safe if administered in a controlled manner with medical supervision.
But is it the case in doping? Do the intended goal sometimes push you beyond the "controlled manner"? Is the "medical supervision" always proper? I guess I can't really shake the idea there may be some health hazard intended when products are diverted from their intended medical use, even when it is monitored by doctors (with dubious ethics).

Honest questions, I have no expertise in this field.
I didn't tought of amphets for pilots, which I might have known beforehand. Was thinking of the foot soldiers to be honest.
 
Jul 6, 2009
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epo is rather dangerous the medical community is even cautious with it for people with the ailment it was created for the rest are a bit less so within reason.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Tell us why you think it's not safe?
Ahh, because of the reported negative effects of various of these products on people who've been taking them to increase sports performance ... :)

Your point about drugs being safe if taken under proper supervision is very valid. However, your argument focuses only on the administration of the drugs - ie., it is (or at least appears to be) disconnected from the outcome. For some drugs and in some "patients", achieving the intended effects requires going beyond the safe threshold. Add in dependency effects and the potential for unsafe use is significant.

Also - and I'm not in the medical profession, so stand to be corrected by anyone who is - clinical trials aren't conducted to determine the effects of these drugs on athletes who are seeking shortcuts to improved performance. So even if a product is deemed safe for Joe Average, the extreme situations that athletes put their bodies through make for difficult assessments of impacts. Not sure how anyone would ever get around this one ... could you imagine the article in some well respected sports med journal "An investigation into the safe application of steriods, HGH and EPO in highly trained cyclists with a view to enabling them to increase athletic performance and score a top ten performance in major stage races" ... ;)
 
Jul 22, 2009
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there could be benefits with no physiologically bad consequences too; just because it is immoral to derive an artificial gain against an honest competitor, it is not necessarily making a deal with a devil one does not know-the possibility remains even that it could be beneficial or simply negligible. We develop and use drugs to help our lives - their use or abuse for other than intended purpose does not necessitate ill consequence- one can only say "it depends..."
 
Jun 26, 2009
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This is a good question and something I have pondered for many years. The simple answer is no.!! None are safe. This was my biggest concern when I made the choice to use PEDs in 1982. I was assured that as long as the dosages were kept to a minimum there was no problem. However, while competing in a madison race on the velodrome using amphetamines I passed out in the middle of an exchange. The doctor was mystified as to why my HR was still at 180bpm 15mins later. Steroids caused personality changes. I became agressive and short fused and was recently diagnosed with mild bipolar disorder. I have had 2 failed marriages and 2 years ago suffered a full cardiac arrest after a MTB ride and I am only 49. Luckily I know my body well and had called the paramedics before I went into arrest. They were able to revive me after being clinically dead for almost 2 mins. My then partner spilled the beans about my past to the cardiologist but he didnt see a direct link to the sustances described although they could not be ruled out as a contributing factor. 2 of my children were born with minor abnormalities. 1 has the 2nd and 3rd toe on both feet webbed and another has part of their wrist joint missing. I'm not sure if this could be attributed to HGH or not.
 
Jun 13, 2009
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beroepsrenner said:
This is a good question and something I have pondered for many years. The simple answer is no.!! None are safe. This was my biggest concern when I made the choice to use PEDs in 1982. I was assured that as long as the dosages were kept to a minimum there was no problem. However, while competing in a madison race on the velodrome using amphetamines I passed out in the middle of an exchange. The doctor was mystified as to why my HR was still at 180bpm 15mins later. Steroids caused personality changes. I became agressive and short fused and was recently diagnosed with mild bipolar disorder. I have had 2 failed marriages and 2 years ago suffered a full cardiac arrest after a MTB ride and I am only 49. Luckily I know my body well and had called the paramedics before I went into arrest. They were able to revive me after being clinically dead for almost 2 mins. My then partner spilled the beans about my past to the cardiologist but he didnt see a direct link to the sustances described although they could not be ruled out as a contributing factor. 2 of my children were born with minor abnormalities. 1 has the 2nd and 3rd toe on both feet webbed and another has part of their wrist joint missing. I'm not sure if this could be attributed to HGH or not.
Have you considered that maybe god just hates you?
 
Jun 22, 2009
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i would say that the the original poster's ability to safely use performance enhancing drug's of any kind outside the protective umbrella of qualified medical supervision is low. call it a hunch;)
 
Jun 16, 2009
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lean said:
i would say that the the original poster's ability to safely use performance enhancing drug's of any kind outside the protective umbrella of qualified medical supervision is low. call it a hunch;)
I agree, I have some experience with EPO, from the standpoint of my father having chemo for years. Where he was being treated they had great success with doing 3 weeks of chemo and then one week off for the body to recover.
Usually by the third week the chemo was doing its job but weakening the patient, red blood count would drop and EPO or Pro crit would bring it back in time for the body to be able to repair itself.
Then the process would start again. After a couple of months the cancer would be beaten down quite a bit and then the patient gets a break for a few weeks.

Talking to the doctors, they were really getting precise in how aggressive they were with the chemo, how much EPO you needed to stay healthy through the chemo etc. But it is a very fine line learned through years & years of patients & treatments.

EPO in a healthy individual is a whole other story. Even if every Protour cyclist was in a "program" it is still far too limited a sample compared to the legitimate purpose of the drug.

My fathers doctors were constantly sharing info, there were a half dozen doctors treating maybe 100 patients a day 6 days a week, then at least once a month they would attend conferences where hundreds of other oncologists shared their experiences & results. So you end up with a control of literally hundreds of thousands of patients benefitting from shared knowledge.

Even the best doctor in cycling is guessing in comparison.
Remember when chemo used to kill people?
nuff said
 
Jun 29, 2009
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Any artificial thickening of the blood in healthy individuals is particularly dangerous, whether through EPO or auto/homologous transfusion. The blood, while it remains in the cardiovascular system, is specifically designed not to clot. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 as absolute bleeding and 10 as absolute clotting, the blood should naturally score about 3 or 4. This prevents the blood from 'sticking' to the vessel walls in healthy individuals. Only when trauma and blood loss occurs should a clotting process be initiated.

As soon as you start thickening the blood you are making it more difficult for the blood to flow smoothly through the cardiovascular system. An increased likelihood of thrombus formation and associated complications such as strokes, PEs, MIs etc is the result. Physiologically there is no way round this. Anyone who is boosting through artificial means should be on some form of anticoagulant therapy to limit the risks. Without this, boosting is pretty much lethal.
 
This needs to be discussed further, and it has somewhat before on here because it is a valid discussion. As far as short term, and long term affects on normal healthy humans. And it needs to be broken down drug by drug, and amount by amount.

Anyone wanting their eyes opened should register and take a gander at the Cutting Edge Muscle website.

I've got a busy week coming up, but I'll try to make more comments later as possible. I'm not a medical professional, but do have a couple of connections to some, and this topic does come up for discussion.
 
Jul 27, 2009
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iceaxe said:
Are any of the drugs safe?
A large number of the banned performance enhancing drugs are quite legitimate pharmaceutical products, of course they are open to abuse but then again there also has to be a safe level of use. Do I think athletes keep to the safe limits? No. More must be better obviously.

The dangers of drugs and the negative side effects are obviously an effective weapon against people considering taking them, but that doesn’t mean all of them are bad.

So the answer to your question is, yes and no.
 
Jun 12, 2009
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All drugs have adverse events. Different people respond differently to drugs. It is possible that healthy people were included in the clinical trails for EPO, CERA, etc. Safety when using PEDs is really a matter of degrees and should not be confused with free of negative consequences.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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While in Belgium I was given b12 shots that made me feel like new.I had a teammate that raced for 9 months in Japan,he ate speed 4 or 5 days a week.Later before he was 28 he was in rehab,not because drugs are bad but because a bike racer should not be administering them to himself or others.I don't know if if Dr.f is bad but at least he is a doctor.I don't know the answers but I sure as hell have seen the problems.
 
Jun 26, 2009
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fatandfast said:
While in Belgium I was given b12 shots that made me feel like new.I had a teammate that raced for 9 months in Japan,he ate speed 4 or 5 days a week.Later before he was 28 he was in rehab,not because drugs are bad but because a bike racer should not be administering them to himself or others.I don't know if if Dr.f is bad but at least he is a doctor.I don't know the answers but I sure as hell have seen the problems.
Injecting vitamins, particularly B group and C was common during my time as a pro. Often people connected to the sport but not in the know would jump to the wrong conclusion when seeing syringes and start rumours. This is also the reason why sometimes syringes are seen to be disposed of in what appears to be sinister circumstances.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Johnny Colnago said:
Have you considered that maybe god just hates you?
LOL, just LOL. :)

beroepsrenner said:
This is a good question and something I have pondered for many years. The simple answer is no.!! None are safe. This was my biggest concern when I made the choice to use PEDs in 1982. I was assured that as long as the dosages were kept to a minimum there was no problem. However, while competing in a madison race on the velodrome using amphetamines I passed out in the middle of an exchange. The doctor was mystified as to why my HR was still at 180bpm 15mins later. Steroids caused personality changes. I became agressive and short fused and was recently diagnosed with mild bipolar disorder. I have had 2 failed marriages and 2 years ago suffered a full cardiac arrest after a MTB ride and I am only 49. Luckily I know my body well and had called the paramedics before I went into arrest. They were able to revive me after being clinically dead for almost 2 mins. My then partner spilled the beans about my past to the cardiologist but he didnt see a direct link to the sustances described although they could not be ruled out as a contributing factor. 2 of my children were born with minor abnormalities. 1 has the 2nd and 3rd toe on both feet webbed and another has part of their wrist joint missing. I'm not sure if this could be attributed to HGH or not.
Cool! Good post.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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red_explosions said:
Any artificial thickening of the blood in healthy individuals is particularly dangerous, whether through EPO or auto/homologous transfusion. The blood, while it remains in the cardiovascular system, is specifically designed not to clot. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 as absolute bleeding and 10 as absolute clotting, the blood should naturally score about 3 or 4. This prevents the blood from 'sticking' to the vessel walls in healthy individuals. Only when trauma and blood loss occurs should a clotting process be initiated.

As soon as you start thickening the blood you are making it more difficult for the blood to flow smoothly through the cardiovascular system. An increased likelihood of thrombus formation and associated complications such as strokes, PEs, MIs etc is the result. Physiologically there is no way round this. Anyone who is boosting through artificial means should be on some form of anticoagulant therapy to limit the risks. Without this, boosting is pretty much lethal.
this is exactly correct but probably too technical for most.

In simple terms: if you make a mistake and jack up your hematorcrit (the percentage of your blood which is red blood cells) too far, your blood turns from a nice water like consistency to the consistency of maple syrup. you die.

M Sport said:
A large number of the banned performance enhancing drugs are quite legitimate pharmaceutical products, of course they are open to abuse but then again there also has to be a safe level of use. Do I think athletes keep to the safe limits? No. More must be better obviously.
Brings up a good point. An MD will try to give as little of these medicines to patients as they can to arrive at the desired effect. This is to minimize abuse, side effects, dependancy, liability, etc. It's called the dose/response relationship and it is often completely ignored by athletes seeking a performance boost. Very dangerous.
 
Jun 26, 2009
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Aren't we fortunate to have d...heads like johnny colnago to offset the intelligent posters on this forum. I really wonder why I bother
 
Good posts by Red Explosions, M Sport, Lean Mean & Green. That's really the details of the devil right there.

I was going to make a post attempting to point out that properly administered, there should be almost no long--term side effects to taking most HBOC's, or EPO especially something like Dynepo. But we don't actually know that, as there are no trials done to show how administering these drugs - drugs designed to help the sick and infirm - to healthy athletes, at the level they are possibly being administered.

"Safe" is also a somewhat relative term. Michele Ferrari made his infamous claim that EPO was no more harmful than orange juice. Meaning, you drink enough orange juice, and it can be harmful. But that's not exactly correct. It would be much, much easier to kill yourself on EPO than on orange juice for starters. But more importantly, despite Ferrari's logic, he's speculating. He's basing such a claim on a presumption from his medical knowledge, but not on any report or study, as there is none.

So the answer is that even the most "harmless" of doping program, such as a properly monitored athlete microdosing Dynepo, is still taking a risk. The short term that Red, M Sport and Lean, Mean point out in the way of clotting, and in the long term which is an unknown. The drug thus cannot be considered completely "safe".
 

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