Are there any "clean" cyclists?

[Freddythefrog]

Vaughters begs to differ at CA.
I dont believe it is. Too much points to trying too hard to be seen to be doing the right thing rather than actually doing the right thing. The Menchov case and Cooksons comments about it proves that, to me at least.

Exactly. I am going to do nothing but I will wrap it up in a gilded cloth that says I would love to be doing something but my hands are tied.

I seem to recall he was sat on the Board of the UCI whilst Pat spent the UCI's money on suing Kimage and he did nothing again, that time.

 

[Benotti69]

One of the big things we were told was that doping more or less became the minority in 2006. It was implied that Armstrong left and took doping with him.

In 2008 JV said the new young generation dont dope 'cos it is not cool'....

check out 2009 Giro top 10

https://twitter.com/Spitinthesoup/status/488333786430836736/photo/1

Are these 10 guys in little cadres that sorted their own doping or were they on team programs?

With teams employing up to 4 docs that is a lot for saddle sores and abrasions.

JV said speeds were down. Brailsford said continuos multiple attacks in the mountains are not possible etc etc all proven untrue.

In order for doping to be a minority, which if true, would mean most riders would be very unhappy to find someone on their team doping or other teams, because as we know doping gives such an advantage. So far only Millar, ISTBC, has informed on doping team mates.

 

[red_flanders]

Just saw an interview with Horner on NBCSP. He was talking about how he was climbing over 400 watts, and he wasn't even close to being up with the wattages the guys in front were riding. He then went on to say that there were 40 guys doing it. He then stressed that guys are climbing as fast as a person can climb, and that people can't go any faster than that...

40 guys

What are they on? They're on their bikes, busting their a$$ for 6 hours per day...and evidently on some other serious sh!t too...

Yep, I found that all fairly remarkable in it's candor as well.

I believe the quote that stood out from him and (I think) Vandevelde was "It doesn't get any faster than that."

Thank heavens cycling has cleaned up.

 

[Amazinmets73]

To answer the OP...

I'd like to think the answer is yes. There are some clean cyclists.

I'm also a dreamer, and a realist. So if you want to say I watch the sport with blinders on, I'm not going to argue. Sort of like I hope there are guys in the NFL or MLB competing without taking steroids or other things.

I actually think there are a lot of clean MLB players.

 

[keeponrollin]

I actually think there are a lot of clean MLB players.

Well, as usual, that rather depends on what you consider 'clean' !

I'd say >90% are taking drugs just for injury recovery & fatigue, that are banned in pretty much every other Professional sport.

 

[Master50]

I disagree. They are not trying.



Why make it personal? I am the last person to dope. Why am i not doping now as an amateur and beating everyone around me? Why am I not doping to win the club race every month? No doubt the others are taking stuff as there is no testing. I dont care for winning but you the pseudo psychologist can diagnose me?

This is the very foundation of your arguments. You just denied doping after an absurd accusation. Sorry, by your standard this is a cheap transparent denial. We all know you dope. that it is to finish a cat 4 crit is irrelevant. Your default position is they are all doping so why on earth would we exclude you? For the most part your denial is as credible as any other one but if cycling is a cess pit then you are a doper and the fact you race is more proof of it.


My mind is not dark. I have followed this sport since the 80s and i have not seen the monumental change, which would flip from the majority of doping to a minority of doping. I call it as it is.

It has been a process not a monumental change. We got the time of unrestricted HC limits to 50% to bio passport to the revelations of the LA years but the dial has been turning back at least to a point where clean riders are winning big races. I too have followed the sport partly from the inside and as a fan and as a racer. I managed cat 4 as a rider. I quit racing in 1997 when I became a UCI official as the rules then required.

Those who cant see it, is because they fail to understand human nature and when the reward is greater than the risk people will cheat. Look at all those invloved in the reason decision, all well off from their cheating, not one had to pay back any of their ill gotten earnings from cheating. Tell a young pro not to be a Hincapie, CVdV, or a Vaughters and they will ask why? they are rich from doping!

Wrong! human nature is affected by moral conviction and more than a few people see the lack of value of what is cheated. Many cyclists have not crossed their line in the sand. I might even believe that some pretended to dope but never crossed the line too. Yes some people do evaluate cost/benefit and act according to the greatest financial good. I would never dispute there are cheaters, just not across the board.

Many want it but no one wants to be 1st to fall behind the others and lose any advantage.

To many, the honesty of a win defines the value of it. So many don't. I have allergies and could not take drugs for it because I was racing cat 4. so Don't tell me that choice is not available to a pro.

Take Garmin. With the exception of Thomas Dekker none of their dopers were caught doping. Millar was caught because the police searched his flat and he caved in and told the truth to the ownership of the empty epo vials. They all (exception being Dekker) know how to dope and how to beat the system. Why change? They need to perform the testing is a joke, the other teams have no morals, do they think they can beat dopers? No chance, the only thing JV has done was introduce internal testing and better logistics to ensure no positives. He has done well, 2 monuments and a GT.

Why change? again your dark side. Your default is no one has a moral compass. they can change for love and honour. they can change because they recognize the need to change. they can want to change and they can win clean.

Again the reason i see the sport as still a cesspit is the lies. Take Vaughters, he assured us Wiggins was clean in 2009, but he then admits he never saw Wiggins till July and he hasn't got a clue who Wiggins was training with!

sorry don't know what that is about.

Cookson told us he was going to be vey harsh on doping and be very transparent and yet we see Menchov gets a 2 year ban and not a word from UCI and Menchov gets to keep all his wins. Tell a young pro not to be like Menchov and they'll laugh. He got to keep his Giro win, his Vuelta win and all the money along with them!! Why not dope? See Cookson lied.

Cookson is not a dictator. he is a president of a sports federation. his powers are defined in regulation and he has little authority to increase or decrease any penalty. At most he can influence but there is not personal power in this case. it is not within his power to do more than what has been imposed. No one is king of the world such that it works the way 1 person says. we are demanding that the anti doping power is removed from the UCI yet you think Cookson should have some Svengali power to rule over anti doping in cycling? Cookson does not have power over Menchov's case as he also promised the uci is decreasing its authority over the anti doping part of the organization so please explain how Brian can alter that decision? Do you have any concept of how the sport and power of it is structured? Cookson cannot increase its authority and be independent of anti doping at the same time. he did increase the political separation of his influence and power which he promised. how tough the penalties that come out of that is not supposed to be at Brian's discretion and that is exactly as the rules require.

The sport is still a cesspit. Cookson might have got a new carpet for the sport, but underneath it is still the same.

The president might authorize the redecoration but the upkeep is still out of his hands. I certainly hope he is paying attention but I also never believed the change in president was much of a big deal as far as their power is concerned. That said, Cookson has actually been keeping his promises but I am sorry you think that means all the rules just change to permit his dictatorship???? He promised to ensure his power could not change a positive drug test and therefore no power to make the penalty either. How does it work both ways? The uci constitution is available on their website. as are all the rules of cycling

 

[marychain]

Who will be the highest-finishing clean GC rider?

Pinot? Bardet? Any advances?

 

[Catwhoorg]

I actually think there are a lot of clean MLB players.

If by clean meaning taking no substances banned under the collective bargaining agreement, I'd agree, but that's because that agreement is pretty ridiculous.

If by clean you mean not taking PEDs I would disagree.

(As its a US pro sport, I'd throw in if by clean you mean WADA rules compliant I would disagree)

 

[Master50]

I disagree. They are not trying.



Why make it personal? I am the last person to dope. Why am i not doping now as an amateur and beating everyone around me? Why am I not doping to win the club race every month? No doubt the others are taking stuff as there is no testing. I dont care for winning but you the pseudo psychologist can diagnose me?

My mind is not dark. I have followed this sport since the 80s and i have not seen the monumental change, which would flip from the majority of doping to a minority of doping. I call it as it is.

Those who cant see it, is because they fail to understand human nature and when the reward is greater than the risk people will cheat. Look at all those invloved in the reason decision, all well off from their cheating, not one had to pay back any of their ill gotten earnings from cheating. Tell a young pro not to be a Hincapie, CVdV, or a Vaughters and they will ask why? they are rich from doping!



Many want it but no one wants to be 1st to fall behind the others and lose any advantage.

Take Garmin. With the exception of Thomas Dekker none of their dopers were caught doping. Millar was caught because the police searched his flat and he caved in and told the truth to the ownership of the empty epo vials. They all (exception being Dekker) know how to dope and how to beat the system. Why change? They need to perform the testing is a joke, the other teams have no morals, do they think they can beat dopers? No chance, the only thing JV has done was introduce internal testing and better logistics to ensure no positives. He has done well, 2 monuments and a GT.

Again the reason i see the sport as still a cesspit is the lies. Take Vaughters, he assured us Wiggins was clean in 2009, but he then admits he never saw Wiggins till July and he hasn't got a clue who Wiggins was training with!

Cookson told us he was going to be vey harsh on doping and be very transparent and yet we see Menchov gets a 2 year ban and not a word from UCI and Menchov gets to keep all his wins. Tell a young pro not to be like Menchov and they'll laugh. He got to keep his Giro win, his Vuelta win and all the money along with them!! Why not dope? See Cookson lied.

The sport is still a cesspit. Cookson might have got a new carpet for the sport, but underneath it is still the same.

Why make it personal? To point out the failing in your logic. All the racers are doping? You race, ergo you are a doper! last guy to ever do that? You call BS on any statement by pros, ergo your claim to be clean is jut as likely BS as anyone else. Just because you are not a pro is meaningless. You race so you dope. Just be consistent. they are all doping. So just like any rider you accuse, now you can prove you don't too. You won't even acknowledge that maybe these riders share your moral position you claim to have. I don't have any idea how moral a person you are and you just want us to accept your constant short they are all doper statements yet believe you are not a doper. You are so certain they are doping that I am assuming by experience rather than an opinion from a distance.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Why make it personal? To point out the failing in your logic. All the racers are doping? You race, ergo you are a doper! last guy to ever do that? You call BS on any statement by pros, ergo your claim to be clean is jut as likely BS as anyone else. Just because you are not a pro is meaningless. You race so you dope. Just be consistent. they are all doping. So just like any rider you accuse, now you can prove you don't too. You won't even acknowledge that maybe these riders share your moral position you claim to have. I don't have any idea how moral a person you are and you just want us to accept your constant short they are all doper statements yet believe you are not a doper. You are so certain they are doping that I am assuming by experience rather than an opinion from a distance.

Well, Benotti has never failed a test so he must be clean.
Anyway, as you state why not prove to us that he is clean.

 

[Benotti69]

Why make it personal? To point out the failing in your logic. All the racers are doping? You race, ergo you are a doper! last guy to ever do that? You call BS on any statement by pros, ergo your claim to be clean is jut as likely BS as anyone else. Just because you are not a pro is meaningless. You race so you dope. Just be consistent. they are all doping. So just like any rider you accuse, now you can prove you don't too. You won't even acknowledge that maybe these riders share your moral position you claim to have. I don't have any idea how moral a person you are and you just want us to accept your constant short they are all doper statements yet believe you are not a doper. You are so certain they are doping that I am assuming by experience rather than an opinion from a distance.

Again with the personal attack.

You dont see any difference between a professional and an amateur and you call me on my logic!!

I am pretty certain as one can be about this. Why? Logic, yes believe it or not as you already had a logic fail in your post, but the testing fails, the culture to dope is still there, the enablers are all there, the racing is as hard as it ever was with racing from the first kilometre becoming the norm in GTs.

Look at Tony Martin yesterday and today, wow, just wow, tell me he did that clean, putting time into the peloton! So if Martin is doping you think the rest of his team is saying, i dont want any of that, these are pros, it is their job they are paid to do this and i have no doubt paid to dope as part of their job.

What was it Vayer tweeted yesterday? oh yeah

Antoine VAYER @festinaboy · 23h
@oufeh I know more you know, maybe. I don't trust anyone, except my wife.

Sorry M50, but i have not seen where the change happened that the culture to dope died. Maybe you could point out where the likes of Vino, Riis, LeFevere, Madiot, Bernadeau, Unzué, Ochowitz, Kim Andersen, Seargent and all the others who have long history with the sport and the doping culture suddenly said no to doping in the sport.

These team owners and directeur sportifs are just some of the enablers, then we have the doctors, the soigneurs and the dealers who all according to the likes of JV accepted that the doping culture ended and have become moralistic and agreed not to assist riders/teams cheat. Of course they did.

I mean we had the reasoned decision where all these big time dopers got hammered right? Well apart from Armstrong the rest walked away for a winter or retired because they were well past standard retirement age (33-36) for a pro and kept all their money from cheating. I mean what young pro out there says, looking at Hincapie, I dont want what that guy has, a clothing line, gran fondo, hotel........and all from doping.

Those who dont dope dont stay in the sport long. No team wants a guy who cannot perform over a guy who with some PEDS has the potential to win for the team. The teams dont see it as a sport, it is business.

 

[BYOP88]

I always had my doubts about how clean you were Benotti69 Goes to show I'm the only clean one. #Straightedge

 

[Benotti69]

I always had my doubts about how clean you were Benotti69 Goes to show I'm the only clean one. #Straightedge

Dude i can hook you up with my dealer, M50 he has the best stuff, tests it out on a donkey who goes by the name Pedro.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Dude i can hook you up with my dealer, M50 he has the best stuff, tests it out on a donkey who goes by the name Pedro.

And I now know that the 69 after your name is actually your HCT%

And besides, I have a TUE for that.

 

[Master50]

Dude i can hook you up with my dealer, M50 he has the best stuff, tests it out on a donkey who goes by the name Pedro.

Darn I was just about to answer your answer to my why personal and then you post this. I have been at you to give us a little more than these kind of answers and I had you talking. Another appropriate illustration, this time of one of your points. A bird does not change the colour of his feathers.

Ok I will give a little serious here.
All pro sports are business and so are a few amateur ones too. I see who is in the sport. I work with them too. Bjarn has a catalogue of commissaires I assume to plan for our outlook and the kind of decisions we make. I have no problem seeing him leave the sport and watching is Johan.
Why dial the doping down? cost / benefit ratio. the cost is rising and the benefit is dropping.
Do you think the stuff LA is dealing with right now is not scaring just a few of his peers? This one is still a far one as the cost is not settled yet but it is possible that LA might pay more than he collected. Not sure how that will work out.
Benefit. This by far is the hardest point for you to make. Mr. 65% does not exist any more. the 50% thing was hard to enforce as most riders would be hydrated in the morning and I know the vampires were prepared for. Bio passport has turned it down a lot. riders cannot afford the very close and organized doping program to manipulate their blood so closely especially with the increasingly watchful eye of the various police forces. If your natural best HC is 46 then you are not trying to hold 48 but 46. My point is what ever they are boosting it is likely so close to their best natural performances that why take all the risk for 1/2 a percent?
The costs are higher, there are possible jail penalties and certainly we are seeing more of it in increments. The sport is changing. I think it is apparent and obvious. Racing today is so much different than the 1980s too. today the do go from the gun at the tour and the do it for 3 weeks. That is incredibly hard but unlike the 1980s most of these guys get a break after a GT. The doping back then had little to do with going faster, longer or harder. Doping was to stay awake, manage the pain and recover. About the only true performance enhancer was testosterone but the way they used it was to recover. Often the pros of yore lost muscle mass over the season because they raced too many days and catabolized their muscles. Testosterone helped offset that by boosting muscle growth and compensating for sever low T levels common to racers then. Of course way back then pros did not get 2 year bans but 1 or 2 month suspensions. there are lots of old guys who wax poetic of those days like it was a right of passage to take you first pot belge.
All things being equal it is certainly possible for a rider coming into the sport to race clean and get results according to their talent. It is possible for a past doper to stop and still keep his job, not to mention save on the doping products and possibly getting caught.
Do we ned to be vigilant? Oh yes I'll take your side on that one. I agree there are a lot of dirty players still in the game. Is there still cheating? as you say it is human nature but so is honour.
As for Tony Martin? World TT champ wins a breakaway? This guy is strong. about as strong as a cyclist can get. I am just watching the stage again. I switched to todays coverage and yes Tony is looking good in polka dots. I am sure you noticed how slow he was going when he hit the climb too? Tomorrow iS REST DAY.
Is that super human or honest you ask. Honest! completely possible!
In Canada there are 3 places where cycling is crazy; lower mainland and Victoria/ Quebec /some part of Ontario. This is where the pros come from or go to. there are several layers of ability which just becomes obvious the more of these guys you see.
You got your cat 1/2 and for the most part these are the guys that are at the end of any group ride after they already did 100 km earlier. Pros are the guys who drop them.
I am a cat 4 with 1 or two cat 1 moments and a few cat 3 days. I was an official for 25 years and have watched more bike racers 50 to 60 days a year from the gun to the checker flag and it looks like it is changing to me.
As much as I hope what I see is the change I am often angry at the clinic in general but I admit I have taken a special offence at most of your posts. This is the first thread I have read anything from you that suggests you have experience at the sport or any rational for your glib jabs. I want more of this and a lot less of your usual junk. This has a chance at enhancing the discussion the other stuff is fluff.
BTW I do mean to say thanks for the expanded conversation. I hope I can get some of it again without making it personal. You may P me off most of the time but I am willing to let you try to change my mind.