Are there any "clean" cyclists?

[Don't be late Pedro]

Those who cant see it, is because they fail to understand human nature and when the reward is greater than the risk people will cheat.

So if you can win and know you won't get caught then people will cheat...

Why make it personal? I am the last person to dope. Why am i not doping now as an amateur and beating everyone around me? Why am I not doping to win the club race every month? No doubt the others are taking stuff as there is no testing.

Hang on. There is no testing so you won't get caught so what is there to stop you from doping. After all, the reward is greater than the risk. So why are you the last person to dope?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

To answer the OP...

I'd like to think the answer is yes. There are some clean cyclists.

I'm also a dreamer, and a realist. So if you want to say I watch the sport with blinders on, I'm not going to argue. Sort of like I hope there are guys in the NFL or MLB competing without taking steroids or other things.

 

[movingtarget]

I disagree. They are not trying.



Why make it personal? I am the last person to dope. Why am i not doping now as an amateur and beating everyone around me? Why am I not doping to win the club race every month? No doubt the others are taking stuff as there is no testing. I dont care for winning but you the pseudo psychologist can diagnose me?

My mind is not dark. I have followed this sport since the 80s and i have not seen the monumental change, which would flip from the majority of doping to a minority of doping. I call it as it is.

Those who cant see it, is because they fail to understand human nature and when the reward is greater than the risk people will cheat. Look at all those invloved in the reason decision, all well off from their cheating, not one had to pay back any of their ill gotten earnings from cheating. Tell a young pro not to be a Hincapie, CVdV, or a Vaughters and they will ask why? they are rich from doping!



Many want it but no one wants to be 1st to fall behind the others and lose any advantage.

Take Garmin. With the exception of Thomas Dekker none of their dopers were caught doping. Millar was caught because the police searched his flat and he caved in and told the truth to the ownership of the empty epo vials. They all (exception being Dekker) know how to dope and how to beat the system. Why change? They need to perform the testing is a joke, the other teams have no morals, do they think they can beat dopers? No chance, the only thing JV has done was introduce internal testing and better logistics to ensure no positives. He has done well, 2 monuments and a GT.

Again the reason i see the sport as still a cesspit is the lies. Take Vaughters, he assured us Wiggins was clean in 2009, but he then admits he never saw Wiggins till July and he hasn't got a clue who Wiggins was training with!

Cookson told us he was going to be vey harsh on doping and be very transparent and yet we see Menchov gets a 2 year ban and not a word from UCI and Menchov gets to keep all his wins. Tell a young pro not to be like Menchov and they'll laugh. He got to keep his Giro win, his Vuelta win and all the money along with them!! Why not dope? See Cookson lied.

The sport is still a cesspit. Cookson might have got a new carpet for the sport, but underneath it is still the same.

There is little doubt that doping controls are failing especially when riders confess after to being caught that they they have been doping for years and only caught once. No one believed Zabel and O'Grady when they said they only doped once and didn't like it. Of course Zabel caved later on while O'Grady did a Menchov. Drug companies seem to be ahead of the game and I'm sure it's like that in most sports. Corruption is also a problem as well. No doubt that teams get tipped off about new tests etc. A good doctor probably has plenty of ideas for the right money.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I would not vouch for the cleanliness of any professional cyclist.
However, I still enjoy watching cycling.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

I would not vouch for the cleanliness of any professional cyclist.
However, I still enjoy watching cycling.

Moose, I wonder how you can enjoy it when we just don't know if the competition and results are due to cheating? I have noticed several posters say the same thing and I can sort of understand where you are coming from. I assume you are saying - take it for what its worth.

But for me I get so depressed when I see a great stage or race or break or sprint or attack and then have to ask myself - was that clean? How do I know that wasn't due to doping/cheating? Cycling is so tainted that thought just won't go away.

And I am not saying your approach is wrong or my approach is warranted.

But, how do you separate the two thoughts, firstly the enjoyment in the moment of a great race and secondly, the competing thought that one can no longer have any confidence the race is clean and it is all just a big fraud!

 

[Benotti69]

So if you can win and know you won't get caught then people will cheat...

Congrats on figuring that out. I think that has been proven time and time again that people thought they would not get caught and cheated.

Jens has been getting away with all his career.

Hang on. There is no testing so you won't get caught so what is there to stop you from doping. After all, the reward is greater than the risk. So why are you the last person to dope?

What stops me from doping is I am not an idiot. How can the reward of a club race be worth doping for? Unless i have professional medical advice on what to dope with and how it will effect me, which is expensive, why would i bother doping for a club race or small amateur race? Only an idiot takes medication without doctors advice and not sporting doctors. So it comes back to am i an idiot?

As for the pros, when a young guy tells his DS he doesn't want to dope, well, he will be told the examples of plenty of guys who have had a long career doping and anyway those who got caught like hincapie, Levi, Menchov, Garmin crew all got to keep their monies.

As for being the last person to dope, i am not and you are being facetious. In the pro peloton riders tend to be given a choice, dope or go home. We have the examples of Obree and Mercer, which are 2 the spring to mind.

There may be riders in the peloton not doping, i doubt it as teams need riders to perform, but they will not get a career out of the sport, only a few years before teams put the pressure on to perform (dope) or leave.

 

[Benotti69]

There is little doubt that doping controls are failing especially when riders confess after to being caught that they they have been doping for years and only caught once. No one believed Zabel and O'Grady when they said they only doped once and didn't like it. Of course Zabel caved later on while O'Grady did a Menchov. Drug companies seem to be ahead of the game and I'm sure it's like that in most sports. Corruption is also a problem as well. No doubt that teams get tipped off about new tests etc. A good doctor probably has plenty of ideas for the right money.

Jens Voight and Chris Horner, 2 40+year old guys doping shows how you have to be unlucky to get caught.

Racing pro bikes and doping for 20 years and not caught.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Benotti on fire this morning - well done and spot on, on all your posts so far.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Congrats on figuring that out. I think that has been proven time and time again that people thought they would not get caught and cheated.

I was just paraphrasing you so I could make my next point.

What stops me from doping is I am not an idiot.

Let's save that debate for another time...

How can the reward of a club race be worth doping for? Unless i have professional medical advice on what to dope with and how it will effect me, which is expensive, why would i bother doping for a club race or small amateur race? Only an idiot takes medication without doctors advice and not sporting doctors. So it comes back to am i an idiot?

There seem to be a fair few people that are willing to dope at amateur level. I imagine there are plenty of products you can use fairly safely.

On the flip side don't you think that there are also professional riders that also don't want to take the risk even with a doctors advice?

As for the pros, when a young guy tells his DS he doesn't want to dope, well, he will be told the examples of plenty of guys who have had a long career doping and anyway those who got caught like hincapie, Levi, Menchov, Garmin crew all got to keep their monies.

As for being the last person to dope, i am not and you are being facetious. In the pro peloton riders tend to be given a choice, dope or go home. We have the examples of Obree and Mercer, which are 2 the spring to mind.

There may be riders in the peloton not doping, i doubt it as teams need riders to perform, but they will not get a career out of the sport, only a few years before teams put the pressure on to perform (dope) or leave.

There are also stories of people that have not doped and people in the current peloton that have a clean reputation. Though according to you over 99% of all riders dope.

 

[Benotti69]

...................


There are also stories of people that have not doped and people in the current peloton that have a clean reputation. Though according to you over 99% of all riders dope.

I dont see a professional team wiling to invest time and money in riders what wont dope when they can get guys who may be excellent responders and bring in the desperately wanted big wins. The clean guy has to be able to do something of value to a team and why would they pay a guy to struggle to do that when a doped rider can do it easier and may be turn into a Froome, Riis, Armstrong, Wiggins etc etc

As people have stated, this is a business to teams. Riis didn't sell his team for a cool 6million because he let riders choose whether to dope or not


Edit: We had Verbruggen running the show, like a circus ring master, then McQuaid the clown and now Cookson who has been found lying through his teeth.

Just before the tour he said "We will never sweep anything under the carpet. If we have a problem we will with it and we will deal with it in the appropriate way, with integrity and transparency".

http://thecyclingpodcast.com/podcast/the-brian-cookson-interview

When we see what 'integrity and transparency' was shown with Menchov's ban I still see the acceptance of the culture of doping in cycling.

 

[hrotha]

In an environment where doping seems to go on within small, self-contained, secretive cadres, I don't think someone who doesn't dope will necessarily be kicked out of the sport. As long as he can perform and he knows better than to become a liability, who cares how he's doing it? Sure he's not going to be as good as he could, but all that means is he'll be getting less money.

Obree left the sport because he'd rather not have anything to do with it and Bassons was chased away because he spoke out. They weren't kicked out just for being clean.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

With Bassons, the team team actually used him (A clean rider) to their advantage by making him take the doping controls first. This gave other riders time to flush their system before they then had to go through.

 

[Benotti69]

With Bassons, the team team actually used him (A clean rider) to their advantage by making him take the doping controls first. This gave other riders time to flush their system before they then had to go through.

Which kind of proves my point about how teams were run and how that culture to dope and do everything possible to cheat has not changed.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Just saw an interview with Horner on NBCSP. He was talking about how he was climbing over 400 watts, and he wasn't even close to being up with the wattages the guys in front were riding. He then went on to say that there were 40 guys doing it. He then stressed that guys are climbing as fast as a person can climb, and that people can't go any faster than that...

40 guys

What are they on? They're on their bikes, busting their a$$ for 6 hours per day...and evidently on some other serious sh!t too...

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Which kind of proves my point about how teams were run and how that culture to dope and do everything possible to cheat has not changed.

But it also disproves your point that teams were (are) not willing to invest time and money in riders that won't follow a programme.

 

[Benotti69]

But it also disproves your point that teams were (are) not willing to invest time and money in riders that won't follow a programme.

If they have a Bassons to get tested first, or the modern equivalent, then that is an investment. Internally testing a clean rider for the ABP and internally testing riders on programs for ABP is also an investment. So one clean rider on a team is a possibility.

Vaughters said he spent half a million on internal testing...... to keep riders clean or to keep them from testing positive. For me it is the latter.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

If they have a Bassons to get tested first, or the modern equivalent, then that is an investment. Internally testing a clean rider for the ABP and internally testing riders on programs for ABP is also an investment. So one clean rider on a team is a possibility.

Vaughters said he spent half a million on internal testing...... to keep riders clean or to keep them from testing positive. For me it is the latter.

Yet, they still tried to get him onto EPO so it is doubtful that was the overriding reason they kept him around.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Just saw an interview with Horner on NBCSP. He was talking about how he was climbing over 400 watts, and he wasn't even close to being up with the wattages the guys in front were riding. He then went on to say that there were 40 guys doing it. He then stressed that guys are climbing as fast as a person can climb, and that people can't go any faster than that...

40 guys

What are they on? They're on their bikes, busting their a$$ for 6 hours per day...and evidently on some other serious sh!t too...

At the same time, Horner at 42 using what he can put out as the benchmark for human achievement is not exactly riders with fat asses passing Greg Lemond and Lucho Herrera.

 

[SeriousSam]

Sort of like I hope there are guys in the NFL or MLB competing without taking steroids or other things.

I'd be shocked to my very core if more than 5% of currently NFL players have never doped.

 

[Benotti69]

Yet, they still tried to get him onto EPO so it is doubtful that was the overriding reason they kept him around.

Of course they did and until 1998 he was talented and if he doped maybe he could've won a TdF!

So it comes back to teams wanting riders to dope. The odd one will be allowed to ride clean but will find it hard to be in the peloton for long as their ambitions to ride a GT will be severely curtailed.

I notice Vaughters has made no comment about Menchov, in fact most people on the racing side have made no comment.

If there were lots of clean riders and not one or 2 why are we not hearing more saying how happy they are that ABP is working?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Of course they did and until 1998 he was talented and if he doped maybe he could've won a TdF!

Why bother? Much easier and possibly cheaper to get a super responder, no. And quite often the naturally better cyclists have less to gain from something like EPO.

So it comes back to teams wanting riders to dope. The odd one will be allowed to ride clean but will find it hard to be in the peloton for long as their ambitions to ride a GT will be severely curtailed.

Are you implying that one day racers can race clean?

I notice Vaughters has made no comment about Menchov, in fact most people on the racing side have made no comment.

If there were lots of clean riders and not one or 2 why are we not hearing more saying how happy they are that ABP is working?

Should JV comment on each and every rider on that list? Next time he is on why not just ask him. Or even just email him - he said feel free to ask him questions.

Some riders (including younger ones) do say that they feel clean riders can thrive recently. Whether you believe them or not is another matter.

 

[Benotti69]

Why bother? Much easier and possibly cheaper to get a super responder, no. And quite often the naturally better cyclists have less to gain from something like EPO.

Why not? Dont know how a rider will respond till they try it.

Are you implying that one day racers can race clean?

Nope. But some guys might get a contract and get to ride small 2,1 races for a year or 2.

If you were going to suggest D Martin is clean, i beg to differ.

Should JV comment on each and every rider on that list? Next time he is on why not just ask him. Or even just email him - he said feel free to ask him questions.

He says he dedicates his life to anti doping. A GT winner gets popped by ABP and he says nowt. I think that is strange for a guy who professes the peloton is cleanER. But then i am not surprised by Vaughters silence. I am pointing it out so people understand Vaughters is a business man.

Some riders (including younger ones) do say that they feel clean riders can thrive recently. Whether you believe them or not is another matter.

Apart from Taylor Phinney i have not seen much talk about clean or dirty riding from younger riders. If they did talk about doping I am sure those who read it would've highlighted it here in the clinic.

I dont believe.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Second rider from the left. As least he insists on mentioning that he's "never tested positive."

He is staring rather hard at that stem though...

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Why not? Dont know how a rider will respond till they try it.

If he is not willing then just get rid of him and get someone else. Yet even in the 90s they did not do that.

Nope. But some guys might get a contract and get to ride small 2,1 races for a year or 2.
If you were going to suggest D Martin is clean, i beg to differ.

Was not thinking of Dan Martin specifically but it seems not matter what someones 'clean' credentials you are going to think they are doping. Your narrative doesn't just depend on no one winning clean but on anyone seen to be clean.

He says he dedicates his life to anti doping. A GT winner gets popped by ABP and he says nowt. I think that is strange for a guy who professes the peloton is cleanER. But then i am not surprised by Vaughters silence. I am pointing it out so people understand Vaughters is a business man.

Like I said why not just ask him? Not many people here knew about it until LS brought it up. Given he is concentrating most of his time at the Tour it probably is not that surprising.

Apart from Taylor Phinney i have not seen much talk about clean or dirty riding from younger riders. If they did talk about doping I am sure those who read it would've highlighted it here in the clinic.
I dont believe.

As you say, you would not believe them no matter what they said.

You believe that (pretty much) no one is clean and I believe it is possible to at least be competitive clean. Best we leave it at that.

 

[Benotti69]

If he is not willing then just get rid of him and get someone else. Yet even in the 90s they did not do that.

Vaughters begs to differ at CA.

Was not thinking of Dan Martin specifically but it seems not matter what someones 'clean' credentials you are going to think they are doping. Your narrative doesn't just depend on no one winning clean but on anyone seen to be clean.

Hard to have clean credentials when you ride on a team of known ex dopers run by an ex doper.

Like I said why not just ask him? Not many people here knew about it until LS brought it up. Given he is concentrating most of his time at the Tour it probably is not that surprising.

I have, he obfuscates.

As you say, you would not believe them no matter what they said.

You believe that (pretty much) no one is clean and I believe it is possible to at least be competitive clean. Best we leave it at that.

I dont believe it is. Too much points to trying too hard to be seen to be doing the right thing rather than actually doing the right thing. The Menchov case and Cooksons comments about it proves that, to me at least.