Are there still "Flandrians" in the peloton?

[Mich78BEL]

I thought that people in 'de kempen' actually spoke 'Limburgs', but my Belgian geography is a little off. So I am unsure if it's in/near the (Belgian) province of Limburg, which together with the dutch province of Limburg once formed a mighty Duchy of Limburg and home to Limburger cheese (amongst other delicacies)

According to Wikipedia:



Given that perhaps only the provinces of Oost and West Vlaanderen could flood (?), due to its close proximity to the coast, it might be true that 'true' Flandriens had to come from those 2 regions only.

So I wikipedia-ed on and I found that:



see map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:County_of_Flanders_(topogaphy).png

If we go with the geographic denomination originally considered "Flanders", then everyone from the Dutch, Belgian and French parts of the county should technically be called Flandrien, right?

Flemish, IMO, seems much more of a linguistic denomination, and covers more people/provinces, depending on the language they speak. So Belgians from the province of Antwerpen (born and raised) and who speak Flemish would be considered Flemish, as opposed to those from the Province of Limburg/Brabant, who would be called Limburgers, or Brabanders.

But I could be wrong.

you're wrong, people from West and East-Flanders, Antwerp, Limburg, Flemish-Brabant are considered Flemish thesedays

Brabant used to be what is now the Belgian provinces of Antwerp, Flemish Brabant, Wallonian Brabant, Brussel and the dutch province North-Brabant. Can't speak for others but here in Antwerp nobody considers themselves a 'Brabander' but most of us consider themselves 'Flemish'

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re the Flemish " language". It sounds like it might best be described as a Patois.
I think its fair to say when you understand the Patois of a language youve mastered it! :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patois

I'd disagree. Patois is usually used to refer to pidgins, creoles and dialects, ethnolects and so on that are derived from another language, e.g. the Jamaican creole version of English that is known as 'patwa'. The whole Nederlandse Taal area is a dialect continuum; it's just that Flanders has now become politically separated from the Netherlands. It's a bit more like Scottish Standard English as opposed to English English; many of the words and formations peculiar to Flemish are every bit as old and ingrained as those in the standard language as spoken in the Netherlands.

They also have that linguistic purism associated with border areas - they are often strongly resistant to French loans, even those that are integrated into the Dutch standard language (a bit like how Quebecois features French back-formations for words where the French just borrow an English word, because in Quebec, the threat of losing their own linguistic identity to English is stronger than in France).

 

[Darryl Webster]

I'd disagree. Patois is usually used to refer to pidgins, creoles and dialects, ethnolects and so on that are derived from another language, e.g. the Jamaican creole version of English that is known as 'patwa'. The whole Nederlandse Taal area is a dialect continuum; it's just that Flanders has now become politically separated from the Netherlands. It's a bit more like Scottish Standard English as opposed to English English; many of the words and formations peculiar to Flemish are every bit as old and ingrained as those in the standard language as spoken in the Netherlands.

They also have that linguistic purism associated with border areas - they are often strongly resistant to French loans, even those that are integrated into the Dutch standard language (a bit like how Quebecois features French back-formations for words where the French just borrow an English word, because in Quebec, the threat of losing their own linguistic identity to English is stronger than in France).

Cheers for that Libertine.
Im no expert on the subject by a long way but the evolution of language is fascinating.

 

[El Pistolero]

In Flanders we speak Dutch. Just because we speak a lot of dialects here doesn't mean it's a separate language. There isn't even one Flemish dialect, but many.

 

[Echoes]

you're wrong, people from West and East-Flanders, Antwerp, Limburg, Flemish-Brabant are considered Flemish thesedays

No freaking way. What is nowadays referred to as Flanders is an artificial region created in 1993 by bloody politicians who have no sense of history and culture. So is "Wallonia". These regions have no existence from my point of view.

Brabant used to be what is now the Belgian provinces of Antwerp, Flemish Brabant, Wallonian Brabant, Brussel and the dutch province North-Brabant. Can't speak for others but here in Antwerp nobody considers themselves a 'Brabander' but most of us consider themselves 'Flemish'

Then you consider yourselves as imposters. Flanders is the historical County of Flanders and nothing else.

You don't even speak the same dialect as in Flanders and Dutch-speaking Belgian TV channel is subtitling comments by people who speak dialects. Rik Van Looy was asked if he was a Flandrian and he answered "No, I'm a Campiner and have always felt that way." And I know many Limburger who would say "We are Limburgers, not Flemish".

Flemish Brabant and Walloon Brabant don't mean anything at all. Absurd provinces.

Most of the major Belgian riders are Flemish apart from Gilbert, it seems. And are Lotto & QST traditionally one or the other? Or just Belgian.

Ista and Kaisen are French-speaking. So are Monfort and Rosseler.

Lotto is traditionally bilingual. QST is rather Dutch-speaking.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

This thread is leading nowhere.
Don't believe to much of what echoes is saying here.

Artificial or not (all regions are artificial in some way btw): when people speak about flanders these days, they speak about the dutch speaking part op Belgium.
When speaking about flanders in History, they speak about a northern part of French (incl Lille & Roubaix), a part of modern Flanders, & a small part of the Netherlands.


For the language: i think you could compare Dutch here & in the Netherlands, with England in the US & Britain. While it's officially the same language, especially written, while spoken, there are hundreds of dialects.
For a dutchman, all Belgian dialects sound more or less 'Flemish', for a Fleming, all Dutch(from the netherlands) dialects sound more or less "Hollands". But in fact, dialects in Flanders differ so much, people from the east sometimes having trouble understanding people from the west. Every town & village, even the smallest, has his own dialect. The bigger the distance between places, the bigger the difference in dialect.
But when written, everything is just the same (except for some specific words, just like British & American English)

 

[TexPat]

The question was: "are there still flandriens" in the peloton.
(not what is the difference between dutch in the netherlands & flanders, what regio should we call flanders,...)

What is a flandrien to me: an old school type of rider, who doesn't care for his style, only for his riding. Who doesn't stop for rain, snow or storm. Who doesn't care to be in a solo getaway for 150 km to win a race. Who'd rather drop death than give up. Who can ride cobbles as if it was a highway. ....

Does this have to be a Fleming? A Belgian? ... I don't really know. I think they mostly have to like the Flemish races.

I could call Voigt a Flandrien, but he doesn't ride that much in this regio.
Boonen, Cancellara, Ballan, certainly Pozzato they're all to much of a pretty boy to be called a flandrien.
Guys like Flecha, Nuyens, Devolder, Leukemans,... i got the feeling they think to much during a race, play it to tactical. That's not very Flandrien-like.
Gilbert, that's a Flandrien in every meaning of the word.
Hoste maybe. He has the face for it...

Dierckxsens!
Not sure there are any left who are true to form, as the sport has become very specialised. Phillipe Gilbert--if said rider has to originate from Belgium. Otherwise, Jens Voigt is the personification of the Flandrien concept of racing.

 

[ferryman]

This thread is leading nowhere.
Don't believe to much of what echoes is saying here.

Artificial or not (all regions are artificial in some way btw): when people speak about flanders these days, they speak about the dutch speaking part op Belgium.
When speaking about flanders in History, they speak about a northern part of French (incl Lille & Roubaix), a part of modern Flanders, & a small part of the Netherlands.


For the language: i think you could compare Dutch here & in the Netherlands, with England in the US & Britain. While it's officially the same language, especially written, while spoken, there are hundreds of dialects.
For a dutchman, all Belgian dialects sound more or less 'Flemish', for a Fleming, all Dutch(from the netherlands) dialects sound more or less "Hollands". But in fact, dialects in Flanders differ so much, people from the east sometimes having trouble understanding people from the west. Every town & village, even the smallest, has his own dialect. The bigger the distance between places, the bigger the difference in dialect.
But when written, everything is just the same (except for some specific words, just like British & American English)

My post is drifting further from the OP's intent. But I agree with this post. In my small English speaking country there are maybe up to 7 (or more) distinct dialects which are mutually understandable but maybe 2 or 3 of which are difficult for even me, as a native, to follow when spoken at speed.

Xmas quiz time for the Euros in to language studies: We all speak the same language (Indo-European) BUT there are 3, I think that are not. Any guesses

And I apologise to the OP that none are in Belg

 

[TexPat]

Suomi, Basque...Hungarian?
Do I win a prize?

 

[ingsve]

Xmas quiz time for the Euros in to language studies: We all speak the same language (Indo-European) BUT there are 3, I think that are not. Any guesses

No, there are more. Finnish, hungarian and basque are already mentioned. Then there are also estonian and sami that are spoken by non-neglectable amounts of people and sami isn't even one language but a group of languages. Then there are several smaller ugric languages that are spoken by small minorities in Russia.

 

[El Pistolero]

No, there are more. Finnish, hungarian and basque are already mentioned. Then there are also estonian and sami that are spoken by non-neglectable amounts of people and sami isn't even one language but a group of languages. Then there are several smaller ugric languages that are spoken by small minorities in Russia.

I always thought no one had a clue where the f Basque came from.
edit: nvm, misread the post you quoted.
ot:

Gilbert is certainly a Flandrien.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

the last one was ludo diercksens although gilbert comes VERY close

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Basque is of course Basque, not related to anything else on earth save for some fanciful theories.

Finnish, Hungarian, Estonian and Sami are all Finno-Ugric and have smaller relatives over in the Ural mountain areas (Finno-Ugric is one branch of the Uralic family).

Maltese hasn't been mentioned yet, and that's a Semitic language, related to Arabic but with a strong English and Italian vocabulary influence.

Apart from that, it depends on where you draw your boundaries as to what constitutes European; Turkey has a European arm and is of course a Turkic language (also Altaic if you believe in that hypothesis) related to Kazakh, Uzbek and so on. Israel is often included within Europe for political purposes in sporting competitions and so on, and they speak Modern Hebrew there, which is a Semitic language, like Arabic and Maltese. If we include all the former USSR-states, as some definitions do, then we have to include all those Central-Asian Altaic and Turkic languages, but also the Caucasian language family, of which Georgian is the most widely-known.

 

[Mich78BEL]

No freaking way. What is nowadays referred to as Flanders is an artificial region created in 1993 by bloody politicians who have no sense of history and culture. So is "Wallonia". These regions have no existence from my point of view.

Flanders ain't anymore artificial as "Belgium", imo its less