Are We in the We Don't Know Era?

[Netserk]

I really don't get the "legal doping" explanation. A substance doesn't have to be known to be forbidden, the code has quite some catch-all categories.

We also hear nothing about doping in most sports, so this could just be a normalisation of cycling.

 

[pastronef]

I really don't get the "legal doping" explanation. A substance doesn't have to be known to be forbidden, the code has quite some catch-all categories.

We also hear nothing about doping in most sports, so this could just be a normalisation of cycling.

but if they used and unknown but -forbidden- substance, they'd test positive cause it is forbidden and then the substance would get known.
"legal" doping means something that enhances your performance but it is not in the Wada forbidden list. and until it is not it's fine

 

[Nomad]

I haven’t seen much discussion recently (maybe I’ve just missed it?) here or in sports media about AICAR and GW-forgotthenumbers? Given that we now have riders with skeletal physiques without apparent associated loss of strength/power so they both set climbing records and win TTs is more than suspicious.

They've had sophisticated testing for both GW1516 & AICAR since 2012. One single 15 mg dose of GW1516 can be detected for up to 40 days. AICAR couldn't be detected until the CIR test came along & can distinguish between naturally occurring AICAR & synthetic use. One single dose of AICAR can be detected up to 40 hrs after last use. Use of either substance will show up as fluctuations on the ABP steroidal/hormonal modules warranting target testing.

 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22977012/

Detection of AICAR administration by carbon isotope ration mass spectrometry

www.wada-ama.org

 

[Netserk]

but if they used and unknown but -forbidden- substance, they'd test positive cause it is forbidden and then the substance would get known.
"legal" doping means something that enhances your performance but it is not in the Wada forbidden list. and until it is not it's fine

You can have a new substance that there exists no test for and which neither WADA nor UCI knows of, but which falls in a category of drugs that is forbidden. It doesn't have to be named to be on the list.

 

[pastronef]

You can have a new substance that there exists no test for and which neither WADA nor UCI knows of, but which falls in a category of drugs that is forbidden. It doesn't have to be named to be on the list.

so that means it is forbidden (by whom?) but undetectable?

 

[Tim Cahill]

Interesting, theres a story about an individual who knew of Del Toro going to UAE before anyone else being found on reddit asking for methods to evade GW1516 positives, the posts were quickly deleted when someone noticed.

 

[Tim Cahill]

This is what's confusing to me. I'm under no illusion that everybody is squeaky clean (and for my enjoyment of the sport it doesn't matter one bit), but I've yet to read even a rumour about what the guys now are doing (I don't buy the motor nonsense). In the 90s and 00s widespread doping in the peloton seemed like an open secret, with a lot of smoke coming from the fire. If the same stuff is happening now, how is it being kept under such a tight lid?

There was this i suppose, thin on the ground though

Wielrenners slaan alarm: “Schildklierhormoon Thyrax wordt in peloton gebruikt”

Een aantal wielrenners heeft WielerFlits geïnformeerd dat het schildklierhormoon Thyrax momenteel door sommige ploegen en renners op het hoogste niveau wordt gebruikt. Het middel staat (nog altijd) niet op de verboden lijst van het Wereld Anti-Doping Agentschap WADA, maar mag door artsen niet...

www.wielerflits.nl

 

[Nomad]

There are currently 523 WT riders. My median (cautious) guess for the number of riders who has used substances or methods against the WADA code in the past year is roughly 470 riders (90 %). I'd expect more than half, maybe even more than two thirds, to use blood doping. If handled professionally, it's safe and it works. Then you can use whatever else on top of that.

It would have to be very minor blood doping as the ABP hematological module would pick up the anomalies. Secondly, how would teams pull off the logistics of blood doping in today's anti-doping climate without getting caught? The withdrawal process, the packing & storing, transportation to races, the reinfusion process, etc. And then there's the trust needed among the doctors & athletes - hoping there's not the risk of a disgruntled team member whistleblowing on the operation.

Do you remember Operation Aderlass a few years back? The most sophisticated blood doping operation known to mankind. Blood would be reinfused immediately before a race or event & the same amount would be immediately withdrawn after the race (before any testing was done) - this procedure would not show any anomalies on the ABP.

But it took just one disgruntled athlete (an Austrian cyclist) to drop a dime on the operation & the whole thing blew up exposing the doctors & athletes involved with criminal charges filed on the doctors:

Austrian doping: A complete history of Operation Aderlass | Cyclingnews.com

Operation Aderlass: Blood doping investigation part of thread running through cycling's history

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[Netserk]

so that means it is forbidden (by whom?) but undetectable?

Yes, by WADA: https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/2022-09/2023list_en_final_9_september_2022.pdf

So there's been speculation on the use of a new HBOC based on lugworm blood. That was forbidden even before it was invented you could say (and thus before knowledge and test of it), as it's automatically banned under M1.2: "Artificially enhancing the uptake, transport or delivery of oxygen. Including, but not limited to: Perfluorochemicals; efaproxiral (RSR13); voxelotor and modified haemoglobin products, e.g. haemoglobin-based blood substitutes and microencapsulated haemoglobin products, excluding supplemental oxygen by inhalation."

Likewise, all kinds of gene-doping is forbidden (M3), even if they don't know of it and can't test it.

 

[Netserk]

It would have to be very minor blood doping as the ABP hematological module would pick up the anomalies. Secondly, how would teams pull off the logistics of blood doping in today's anti-doping climate without getting caught? The withdrawal process, the packing & storing, transportation to races, the reinfusion process, etc. And then there's the trust needed among the doctors & athletes - hoping there's not the risk of a disgruntled team member whistleblowing on the operation.

Do you remember Operation Aderlass a few years back? The most sophisticated blood doping operation known to mankind. Blood would be reinfused immediately before a race or event & the same amount would be immediately withdrawn after the race (before any testing was done) - this procedure would not show any anomalies on the ABP.

But it took just one disgruntled athlete (an Austrian cyclist) to drop a dime on the operation & the whole thing blew up exposing the doctors & athletes involved with criminal charges filed on the doctors:

Austrian doping: A complete history of Operation Aderlass | Cyclingnews.com

Operation Aderlass: Blood doping investigation part of thread running through cycling's history

www.cyclingnews.com

No, it would not have to be very minor. Horner published his passport data, and it was evident that he used blood bags during the 2013 Vuelta, but he wasn't flagged for that.

 

[Nomad]

I am tending towards there being something that is as-yet undetectable or is as-yet not banned (but likely would be once it was known about), but I think that all of the factors I mention contribute.

Are you talking about substances like Creatine, Beta-Alanine, Caffeine, etc?

There's some good research & studies on the efficacy of these supplements. Creatine has been shown to improve lean muscle mass & strength. Beta-Alanine - and especially caffeine supplements - have been shown to improve endurance performance.

I think WADA at one time had an upper limit of caffeine use where if an athlete exceeded that amount, he or she would face a ban. I believe that's since been abolished?

 

[Sciatic]

They've had sophisticated testing for both GW1516 & AICAR since 2012. One single 15 mg dose of GW1516 can be detected for up to 40 days. AICAR couldn't be detected until the CIR test came along & can distinguish between naturally occurring AICAR & synthetic use. One single dose of AICAR can be detected up to 40 hrs after last use. Use of either substance will show up as fluctuations on the ABP steroidal/hormonal modules warranting target testing.

 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22977012/

Detection of AICAR administration by carbon isotope ration mass spectrometry

www.wada-ama.org

Thanks, I have been wondering about that.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Are you talking about substances like Creatine, Beta-Alanine, Caffeine, etc?

There's some good research & studies on the efficacy of these supplements. Creatine has been shown to improve lean muscle mass & strength. Beta-Alanine - and especially caffeine supplements - have been shown to improve endurance performance.

I think WADA at one time had an upper limit of caffeine use where if an athlete exceeded that amount, he or she would face a ban. I believe that's since been abolished?

No. I don't think any of those substances in and of themselves explain the enormous level of performance increases we are seeing.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Creatine is good and effective with no real side effects, but you do retain a bit more water weight so it wouldn't be good for cycling, UAE already got burned by it.

Change in sports drink blamed for UAE's poor Tour de France performance | Cyclingnews.com

Norway's TV2 says team's new drink caused the body to absorb too much fluid

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[Sciatic]

so that means it is forbidden (by whom?) but undetectable?

Undetectable doesn’t mean it can’t be discovered—because someone could out (or find through a bust) the drug or apparatus to researchers or officials in the sport. Wasn’t that the case with Balco?

 

[pastronef]

Undetectable doesn’t mean it can’t be discovered—because someone could out (or find through a bust) the drug or apparatus to researchers or officials in the sport. Wasn’t that the case with Balco?

agree.

ps. I don't remember Balco. bust in American track and field? I'll have to google it

 

[Nomad]

No. I don't think any of those substances in and of themselves explain the enormous level of performance increases we are seeing.

Are you sure about that? There's a plethora of caffeine studies that show significant improvement in endurance performance (both running & cycling performance).

 

[Brullnux]

agree.

ps. I don't remember Balco. bust in American track and field? I'll have to google it

Baseball primarily, with some impact in track and field. IIRC there were some bizarre home run records in baseball in the early 00s, which oddly kind of saved baseball as it was struggling in TV ratings before the drug fuelled home run boom

 

[Brullnux]

Are you sure about that? There's a plethora of caffeine studies that show significant improvement in endurance performance (both running & cycling performance).

Isn't it around 2%?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Are you sure about that? There's a plethora of caffeine studies that show significant improvement in endurance performance (both running & cycling performance).

Caffeine has also been known about and used in the sport for the best part of 100 years. It may not have been harnessed to its full potential, but I have absolutely zero faith that the increases in performance level that I have seen over the past... since 2009 when Pierre Bordry got relieved of his duty, are attributable to caffeine.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Isn't it around 2%?

Yes it is more substantial than many think, though it's been known and used in finishing bottles for years

Pot belge - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Nomad]

You can have a new substance that there exists no test for and which neither WADA nor UCI knows of, but which falls in a category of drugs that is forbidden. It doesn't have to be named to be on the list.

But samples have been frozen & stored for up to 10 yrs for re-testing. Did you hear about the Olympic gold medalist track cyclist whose competition samples from the 2016 Rio games was just re-analyzed & positive for a SARMs that was undetectable at that time (imagine the look on his face when he was notified of the positive. Lol).

The freezing of the samples for 10 yrs subjected to re-testing as drug detection technology improves - I think would be a huge deterrent in using some crazy undetectable designer drug. In reality, that undetectable substance that the athlete thinks he's outsmarting anti-doping would come back to haunt him years later.

WADA welcomes enhanced long-term sample storage and re-analysis program

The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) welcomes today’s announcement by the International Testing Agency (ITA) that it is rolling out and managing a global long-term sample storage and further analysis program on behalf of the International Olympic Commit

www.wada-ama.org

 

[proffate]

Yes it is more substantial than many think, though it's been known and used in finishing bottles for years

Pot belge - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Source? It doesn't seem to matter one iota if you take creatine before, during, or after exercise. And a single dose is not going to do anything; you need days to load up and get an effect.

 

[Nomad]

Isn't it around 2%?

Yes...2% and up to 7% in some studies:

Effects of Caffeine Intake on Endurance Running Performance and Time to Exhaustion: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis - PMC

Caffeine (1,3,7-trimethylxanthine) is one of the most widely consumed performance-enhancing substances in sport due to its well-established ergogenic effects. The use of caffeine is more common in aerobic-based sports due to the ample evidence ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Tim Cahill]

Source? It doesn't seem to matter one iota if you take creatine before, during, or after exercise. And a single dose is not going to do anything; you need days to load up and get an effect.

Yes you need a week or so of about 20g a day loading then most take 3-5g a day at any time, it does work though I take it myself, but some retain a water weight, I think it's fairly well researched. Wouldn't be the kind of thing that has much visual effect to a layman but for cyclists who deal in grams the gain in strength might not be worth the weight-gain.

Creatine Supplementation Increases Total Body Water Without Altering Fluid Distribution - PMC

To examine the effects of oral creatine (Cr) monohydrate supplementation on muscle Cr concentration, body mass, and total body water (TBW), extracellular water (ECW), and intracellular water (ICW) volumes. After an overnight fast, urinary Cr and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov