Are We in the We Don't Know Era?

[repre]

Padun was 2021

Bahrain 2022: Sanremo, Fleche, Andalucia. podium at: Giro, Tirreno, Itzulia, Lombardia.
stage wins at: Giro, Tirreno, Suisse, Romandie
21 victories

Bahrain 2023: stage TDUnder, 2 stages Giro, 3 stages Tour (as in 2021), 1 stage Vuelta, GT win Pologne
podium at: Fleche, Liege, Romandie, PaysBasque, San Sebastian.
19 victories

They have good team and they are racing great tactically, but they wasn't ridiculous anymore

 

[pastronef]

They have good team and they are racing great tactically, but they wasn't ridiculous anymore

well, every year is different. races are won/lost in moments. Mohoric launched the perfect attack at the foot of the Poggio downhill 2 weeks ago. just VDP working for Philipsen avoided another Sanremo for him. Buitrago smashed a super stage in Paris-Nice. Moho is injured for Roubaix. it takes so little win/lose

 

[zlev11]

if I were to bet on it I would say there is absolutely a new, undetectable, extremely effective substance in the peloton, ala EPO in the early '90's. the one strange thing to me is that there hasn't really been very many "donkey to racehorse" transformations that were the signature of the EPO era. it feels like the level of the peloton has risen collectively and the guys who are winning were all highly touted from a young age for the most part. that to me would speak to it being very widespread but even then you would expect there to be a few out of nowhere super-responders. possibly it's just something they just all got ahold of very young, but i kinda doubt that.

 

[Cookster15]

if I were to bet on it I would say there is absolutely a new, undetectable, extremely effective substance in the peloton, ala EPO in the early '90's. the one strange thing to me is that there hasn't really been very many "donkey to racehorse" transformations that were the signature of the EPO era. it feels like the level of the peloton has risen collectively and the guys who are winning were all highly touted from a young age for the most part. that to me would speak to it being very widespread but even then you would expect there to be a few out of nowhere super-responders. possibly it's just something they just all got ahold of very young, but i kinda doubt that.

The UCI passport would (in time) detect any increase in the level of oxygen carrying capability of the bloodstream above that rider's baseline - assuming they actually enforce it. But I think you might be onto something with the bold? If riders can dope their levels before they ever get tested that would help them circumvent the passport and explain the lack of donkey to racehorse transformations in recent years. But this is only conjecture on my part.

 

[zlev11]

The UCI passport would (in time) detect any increase in the level of oxygen carrying capability of the bloodstream above that rider's baseline - assuming they actually enforce it. But I think you might be onto something with the bold? If riders can dope their levels before they ever get tested that would help them circumvent the passport and explain the lack of donkey to racehorse transformations in recent years. But this is only conjecture on my part.

as others have stated in this thread, the biopassport has been rendered nearly useless unless the blood doping is super egregious and especially if the rider suspected has a ton of money to fight the case with.

i think what you're saying is possible in isolation but not with all of the 5-7 riders who currently dominate. i can't see them all having the means or the expertise to dope themselves up at 15/16/17 to the right level to somehow beat the passport forever. that theory just kinda falls apart for me when i think about it more deeply.

 

[Netserk]

The UCI passport would (in time) detect any increase in the level of oxygen carrying capability of the bloodstream above that rider's baseline - assuming they actually enforce it. But I think you might be onto something with the bold? If riders can dope their levels before they ever get tested that would help them circumvent the passport and explain the lack of donkey to racehorse transformations in recent years. But this is only conjecture on my part.

I find it plausible for that to be one of the reasons for very young pros being so good so early.

 

[Nomad]

I pretty much disagree.

ABP preventing EPO/blood doping: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21336951/

IDK what you mean? That's a 13 yr old study that used less efficacious micro-doses of rEPO. Operation Aderlass used blood transfusions that circumvented the ABP.

 

[Nomad]

Operation Aderlass being sophisticated: I rather think it was insanely amateurish. Some random athletes that haven’t had better access to more sophisticated doping paid a German doctor to meet them at motorway resting areas and give them access to drugs/store blood. And they did blood transfusions themselves in the hotel - no assistance on the medical act (ok, thats doable) and organization.

Not sophisticated? Lol Why don't you read Tammjarv's CAS hearing & see the techniques that were utilized in blood transfusions IC & circumventing the ABP:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/ADD_7_and_ADD_13_Award__for_publication_.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjsrqam66qFAxUSGTQIHa0CATIQFnoECB8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2635EJBUfwpXr0Y-Xxe7Uv

Danilo Hondo was even in on the act. Able to blood dope undetected during his competition season. He even had a code name in Operation Aderlass: "James Bond." Now you know that's a sophisticated operation when someone has the code name of a legendary spy character (I can just imagine hearing the James Bond 007 Theme Song as Hondo is re-infusing his blood bag before a competition. Lol).

Danilo Hondo reveals huge sums of money he paid for blood doping

Danilo Hondo reveals huge sums of money he paid for blood doping

www.stickybottle.com

 

[scribers]

Cyclists don’t seem to be smoldering with occasional spot fires of evidence like they used to.

I want to believe. But the results are too fast to ignore

 

[pastronef]

double post sorry

 

[Nick2413]

Bout time for this thread to get a bump.

 

[JosefK]

Doping-wise, cycling feels to me like it hasn't changed much in the last decade. The doping controls and anti-doping agencies seem to be there to discourage blatant, fully mutant levels of doping whilst allowing for something happening in the training periods and possible micro-dosing and blood-doping (limited?) during races. If the riders and teams in the professional peloton have access to the same methods and products, and are limited by the even application of anti-doping measures, fans might have some reason to believe that the sport can be somewhat fairly competitive ... to a degree. But what if certain teams/riders/staff have access to methods and products that not everyone in the peloton can acquire? And what if certain riders may be super-responders to certain products in a way that gives them an unfair advantage over other riders who, in an un-doped world, might be fully competitive ... but not in the doped arena? And what if certain riders might gain institutional "protection" from the anti-doping measures because they have become too big, too successful, to prosecute (as it is judged that the sport would suffer too much from penalizing such stars)? ... Age-old questions of fairness. It probably means that to enjoy the sport as a fan, one must put aside questions of doping . Try not to look too closely at the way the meat in one's sausage is prepared, so to speak.

 

[AmRacer]

We went from implausible deniability to impossible deniability ages ago and from that weve moved onto the HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA era

It's finally confirmed, the Giro is the best prep for the Tour. A punctured lung is the next best prep.

 

[46&twoWheels]

I'm not sure if we are in an era where we're chasing something unknown. Maybe this time we're living in a cease-fire without knowing. if doping has become safer, more efficient, more scientifically sound, more cost-effective, who knows...maybe they'll pretend nothing is happening for the sake of the show.

Of course,we'll never find peer reviewed papers on "how to dope safely", but the basic molecular mechanisms and metabolic effects are surely already out there available. We just don't know what too look for.

 

[Mr. 64%]

if I were to bet on it I would say there is absolutely a new, undetectable, extremely effective substance in the peloton, ala EPO in the early '90's. the one strange thing to me is that there hasn't really been very many "donkey to racehorse" transformations that were the signature of the EPO era. it feels like the level of the peloton has risen collectively and the guys who are winning were all highly touted from a young age for the most part. that to me would speak to it being very widespread but even then you would expect there to be a few out of nowhere super-responders. possibly it's just something they just all got ahold of very young, but i kinda doubt that.

Well, Politt climbing at around 6 W/kg all day long qualifies for me.

You could also turn it around: This seems to be the era of the racehorse-to-donkey transformations...

 

[Nick2413]

I have an unending list of questions.

From the top 10 list alone, not much has changed since previous years. But the performances are way better. Does this mean the same riders/teams that previously had access to the best stuff also have access to the new best stuff? How widespread is it currently and how fast is it expanding? Are a handful of riders on what Pogacar is on but his talent/response is off the charts or is he on something even better?

Roglic is a data point we never really got to see. Gee and Remco are the biggest movers-up.

I almost wonder if Jumbo found the secret sauce in ‘22 and it took a couple years for others to catch up, bringing them back down to a great but not worldbeater level. Or Vingegaard’s injuries are the only reason he didn’t dominate again.

If the rest of the peloton catches up, will we see a big shake-up in who dominates the coming years or more of the same?

 

[Unchained]

There is talk about what an on skin glucose and oxygen sensor on each athlete would do for the sport, w specialized nutrition, likely liquid form that will keep available calories at an absolute optimum from start to finish. Is the dramatic change in literally dumping sugar into racers changing values?
Does bizarre blood values change testing? Is the UCI in on testing outcomes?
In the United States all our major sports are financially vested in not having huge public controversy. You see the physical appearance and physical outcomes of current athletes and to not see drug use, is only for the blind.
Bobby Julich did a recent interview and diet, rest and recovery, new training science are the primary differences why all of cycling history is being completely rewritten.. I read and watch lots of works of fiction so I am easier than most.

 

[Nick2413]

There is talk about what an on skin glucose and oxygen sensor on each athlete would do for the sport, w specialized nutrition, likely liquid form that will keep available calories at an absolute optimum from start to finish. Is the dramatic change in literally dumping sugar into racers changing values?

The calorie intake doesn’t increase ceiling, which is what’s increased by 10% in the last year or less. They’re beating performances that weren’t even possible on TTs when glycogen stores would never be an issue. All the talk about tech/nutrition is straight fantasy. What training and nutrition advancements happened in the last 10 days?

 

[Unchained]

The calorie intake doesn’t increase ceiling, which is what’s increased by 10% in the last year or less. They’re beating performances that weren’t even possible on TTs when glycogen stores would never be an issue. All the talk about tech/nutrition is straight fantasy. What training and nutrition advancements happened in the last 10 days?

I think maybe I am not using the right terms, today Bobby Julich, George Hindcappie, Lance Armstrong all sat around telling semi horror stories about what cycling would have been if they were force feeding @110-140 grams of carbs per hour.
You can see the UCI is fighting to keep some technical control, which they currently don't have.. Video transmission and on rider bidirectional communications have many racing being controlled by a drone type pilot working in a team bus. So real time rider feedback w bio data..guy in a bus seeing available is oxygen, on board calories, heart rate, body temperature, calories used..all things coming to pro bike racing in the near future.. Currently a rider like Remco or Pog can get feedback from headend..so they see wattage output and heart rate currently but soon that data is going to increase by 1000%.
I am not big on conspiracy theories but I ...just know that pro cycling is still one today like it has been for @80+ years.. LA was a nuclear bomb and everyone involved is not going to let that happen again..

 

[Unchained]

The calorie intake doesn’t increase ceiling, which is what’s increased by 10% in the last year or less. They’re beating performances that weren’t even possible on TTs when glycogen stores would never be an issue. All the talk about tech/nutrition is straight fantasy. What training and nutrition advancements happened in the last 10 days?

 

[Unchained]

What training and nutrition advancements happened in the last 10 days?

Post race blood tests, ice vests, portable air conditioning units, ice baths, keytones, inflation leg supports, carbon breath back devices, absolutely measured solid food and liquid taken at mealtime, rider specific breakfast

 

[Saint Unix]

It's finally confirmed, the Giro is the best prep for the Tour. A punctured lung is the next best prep.

Severe medical issues are actually necessary to succeed in cycling, whether it be lung, brain and ball cancer or some kind of science fiction blood worm. Vingegaard's lung was simply reborn as the stronger, better Lung v2.0. If he'd had the foresight to collapse both lungs he probably would have won the Tour.

 

[burning]

What training and nutrition advancements happened in the last 10 days?

Post race blood tests, ice vests, portable air conditioning units, ice baths, keytones, inflation leg supports, carbon breath back devices, absolutely measured solid food and liquid taken at mealtime, rider specific breakfast

If these are all reasons for the sudden and wide-spread jump, they all could easily be replicated in other endurance sports. I am not seeing records being torn apart by ~10 guys in any other sport in the last year.

I think cycling has switched to an open policy like US pro sports or fotball where nobody relevant is going to be caught for the spectacle. Recently, we are not seeing a police or a law operation taking it over like BALCO, Festina, and Puerto as well

 

[Rob5091]

If these are all reasons for the sudden and wide-spread jump, they all could easily be replicated in other endurance sports. I am not seeing records being torn apart by ~10 guys in any other sport in the last year.

I think cycling has switched to an open policy like US pro sports or fotball where nobody relevant is going to be caught for the spectacle. Recently, we are not seeing a police or a law operation taking it over like BALCO, Festina, and Puerto as well

Since the UCI have said that basically unless a journalist or whistleblower reveals something, we're not doing anything. The police make the UCI act but in places like Spain, it's all getting a bit diffuse with testing time limits and the problems with the biological passport. The irony is that Portugal, once the home of the very dubious performances, is now probably cleaner then other places.
Big teams with big bucks can get lots of lawyers, which won't help the guy or gals career, but at least the team can say, "never tested positive!" at the end of the day. I don't know the UCU's budget for legal expenses but it's probably not enough at the end of the day.

 

[fbjim]

I answered #2 but it's a very technical 2, in that it's possible that they are doing something which is, technically, not literally illegal, but probably should be illegal and would be illegal as soon as someone figures out what it is.