Are We in the We Don't Know Era?

[Nomad]

Isn't it around 2%?

Yes...2% and up to 7% in some studies:

Effects of Caffeine Intake on Endurance Running Performance and Time to Exhaustion: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis - PMC

Caffeine (1,3,7-trimethylxanthine) is one of the most widely consumed performance-enhancing substances in sport due to its well-established ergogenic effects. The use of caffeine is more common in aerobic-based sports due to the ample evidence ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Tim Cahill]

Source? It doesn't seem to matter one iota if you take creatine before, during, or after exercise. And a single dose is not going to do anything; you need days to load up and get an effect.

Yes you need a week or so of about 20g a day loading then most take 3-5g a day at any time, it does work though I take it myself, but some retain a water weight, I think it's fairly well researched. Wouldn't be the kind of thing that has much visual effect to a layman but for cyclists who deal in grams the gain in strength might not be worth the weight-gain.

Creatine Supplementation Increases Total Body Water Without Altering Fluid Distribution - PMC

To examine the effects of oral creatine (Cr) monohydrate supplementation on muscle Cr concentration, body mass, and total body water (TBW), extracellular water (ECW), and intracellular water (ICW) volumes. After an overnight fast, urinary Cr and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[proffate]

Yes you need a week or so of about 20g a day loading then most take 3-5g a day at any time, it does work though I take it myself, but some retain a water weight, I think it's fairly well researched. Wouldn't be the kind of thing that has much visual effect to a layman but for cyclists who deal in grams the gain in strength might not be worth the weight-gain.

Creatine Supplementation Increases Total Body Water Without Altering Fluid Distribution - PMC

To examine the effects of oral creatine (Cr) monohydrate supplementation on muscle Cr concentration, body mass, and total body water (TBW), extracellular water (ECW), and intracellular water (ICW) volumes. After an overnight fast, urinary Cr and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I meant about the finishing bottle. I'm pretty sure there's no point in putting creatine in that.

 

[proffate]

Yes...2% and up to 7% in some studies:

Effects of Caffeine Intake on Endurance Running Performance and Time to Exhaustion: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis - PMC

Caffeine (1,3,7-trimethylxanthine) is one of the most widely consumed performance-enhancing substances in sport due to its well-established ergogenic effects. The use of caffeine is more common in aerobic-based sports due to the ample evidence ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

7% is bonkers. For me it is almost exactly 2%. I cycle on and off it frequently and the change takes two weeks in both directions.

 

[Tim Cahill]

I meant about the finishing bottle. I'm pretty sure there's no point in putting creatine in that.

Oh ok, yeah the caffeine thing in bottles people have been on about for years, don't know whether they knew exactly how effective it was, just that it worked.

Heres Phinney from 2012;

Taylor Phinney Interview: Getting the pill culture out of the sport

“There is widespread use of finish bottles, which are just bottles of crushed up caffeine pills and painkillers. That stuff can make you pretty loopy, and that is why I have never tried it. I don’t even want to try it as I feel it dangerous.

Oscar Seville got banned for it too, so did Abraham Olano but I couldn't find the article;

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/oct00/oct6news.shtml

Tiernan-Locke talked about it which is where I first heard it, but they were putting tramadol in the bottles at British Cycling too.

Incase anyone missed it, here is Calmejane's comment on this from today.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1775945322587459903

 

[noob]

There was this i suppose, thin on the ground though

Wielrenners slaan alarm: “Schildklierhormoon Thyrax wordt in peloton gebruikt”

Een aantal wielrenners heeft WielerFlits geïnformeerd dat het schildklierhormoon Thyrax momenteel door sommige ploegen en renners op het hoogste niveau wordt gebruikt. Het middel staat (nog altijd) niet op de verboden lijst van het Wereld Anti-Doping Agentschap WADA, maar mag door artsen niet...

www.wielerflits.nl

Thin on the ground?

 

[Tim Cahill]

Thin on the ground?

Means there isn't much information about whats going on with doping out there at the moment, not like it used to be

 

[Sciatic]

agree.

ps. I don't remember Balco. bust in American track and field? I'll have to google it

As Brullnex stated it primarily exposed a steroid distribution ring in baseball and also in Athletics, along with a few other sports.
The point for our discussion here is that this supplements company created a (at least for a time) undetectable steroid that was being used to give a big boost to performances by the biggest stars of the two sports. It came apart when a whistleblower within the distribution network tipped off a track coach and subsequently provided samples of the drug for testing. The drug use and the boosted performances might have continued for years longer without that tip-off.

 

[noob]

Means there isn't much information about whats going on with doping out there at the moment, not like it used to be

Ah i see. Since I happen to have a thyroid patient in my lap I'd intuitively think it would be effective if they indeed used that drug, but dangerous af. A lot of what's going on could be explained. Theoretically.

 

[Nomad]

7% is bonkers. For me it is almost exactly 2%. I cycle on and off it frequently and the change takes two weeks in both directions.

Do you take it in a liquid or pill form? I use capsules that are mixed with green tea that really power my workouts - both endurance & weight lifting training.

 

[repre]

This is what's confusing to me. I'm under no illusion that everybody is squeaky clean (and for my enjoyment of the sport it doesn't matter one bit), but I've yet to read even a rumour about what the guys now are doing (I don't buy the motor nonsense). In the 90s and 00s widespread doping in the peloton seemed like an open secret, with a lot of smoke coming from the fire. If the same stuff is happening now, how is it being kept under such a tight lid?

There were speculation about Bahrain couple years ago, when everybody were flying and Padun was the best climbet at Dauphine.

Whatever they were on, they quickly got off of it shortly afterwards and never been the same teamwide.

That's only big suspicion i can remember after Team Sky and bloodbags.

 

[noob]

Do you take it in a liquid or pill form? I use capsules that are mixed with green tea that really power my workouts - both endurance & weight lifting training.

Now I low key feel like doing a field study comparing my former central stimulants to caffeine while doing physical exercise to see the effects in myself. Maybe trying to go up a hill I never manage to conquer with my electrical bike. I stopped using central stimulants as they made me to agressive, but I accidentally noticed they were good for training and my doc allowed me to use them as such. It's 20 years ago but they still should give some energy to this old bod

 

[noob]

There were speculation about Bahrain couple years ago, when everybody were flying and Padun was the best climbet at Dauphine.

Whatever they were on, they quickly got off of it shortly afterwards and never been the same teamwide.

That's only big suspicion i can remember after Team Sky and bloodbags.

Yes the razzia and Mohoric shushing celebration at tdf!

 

[Dreginald]

I don't get it either. And it seems like lots of relatively new road cycling fans have absolutely no suspicions. Or maybe younger folks/fans are just so worn out and cynical that they just don't care?

For example, with something like the NFL in the U.S., it seems like most avid fans know they aren't clean but don't care. Tennis, cycling...it seems like many folks believe they're clean.

I think the general public don’t believe nfl players are doping

 

[proffate]

Do you take it in a liquid or pill form? I use capsules that are mixed with green tea that really power my workouts - both endurance & weight lifting training.

By liquid I assume you mean a powder mixed into a liquid? I have both loose powder and encapsulated powder. The capsules are there for convenience, e.g. when I'm not mixing a smoothie that day, but I don't think the form factor makes a difference. The trade-off with capsules is slightly higher cost.

I did read one source that found the presence of creatine in a carb drinks helps with absorption of the carbs, so sometimes I add it to my bike bottles and imagine it's doing something extra...

In the case of your green tea cocktail, I suspect the caffeine is responsible for the majority of the subjective effect.

 

[proffate]

Oh ok, yeah the caffeine thing in bottles people have been on about for years, don't know whether they knew exactly how effective it was, just that it worked.

Heres Phinney from 2012;

Taylor Phinney Interview: Getting the pill culture out of the sport

“There is widespread use of finish bottles, which are just bottles of crushed up caffeine pills and painkillers. That stuff can make you pretty loopy, and that is why I have never tried it. I don’t even want to try it as I feel it dangerous.

Oscar Seville got banned for it too, so did Abraham Olano but I couldn't find the article;

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/oct00/oct6news.shtml

Tiernan-Locke talked about it which is where I first heard it, but they were putting tramadol in the bottles at British Cycling too.

Incase anyone missed it, here is Calmejane's comment on this from today.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1775945322587459903

Based on your earlier posts I thought you were linking creatine and finishing bottles. Caffeine would certainly have a place in a finishing bottle.

I thought the UCI cleaned up the whole painkiller abuse thing... but probably they just nixed tramadol and riders are still going ham on a lot of other substances like CBD. I'm glad to hear that Phinney absolutely never ever touched any of that stuff not even once bc he's enough of a space cadet as it is.

From my understanding of modern sports science, the legal things you might want to consume during a race are:

1. LOADS of sugar, in various guises
2. "electrolytes" aka "salt"
3. caffeine, which enhances mental clarity, boosts VO2, and mutes pain via the release of adrenaline
4. a small amount of protein, such as BCAAs, to reduce muscle damage
5. ketones, although no one can agree on a protocol
6. sodium bicarb, although this stuff is pretty nasty and makes you *** yourself, hence the Maurten™ bicarb system, which incidentally amplifies the cost by about 1000x
7. beet extract, although there are notable trade-offs and I haven't found the utility myself
8. painkillers I guess, not sure which ones are popular or still legal. I have found that vaporized CBD is effective, but I don't see too many riders toking vapes in the middle of a race, so they're stuck with oral administration, plus I would guess it's somewhat risky in case there's some residual THC that could trigger WADA problems
9. oh yeah, and water

Ergogenic aids that need not be consumed during exercise, but have robust evidence supporting chronic administration:

1. creatine
2. beta alanine
3. ashwagandha

 

[noob]

Based on your earlier posts I thought you were linking creatine and finishing bottles. Caffeine would certainly have a place in a finishing bottle.

I thought the UCI cleaned up the whole painkiller abuse thing... but probably they just nixed tramadol and riders are still going ham on a lot of other substances like CBD. I'm glad to hear that Phinney absolutely never ever touched any of that stuff not even once bc he's enough of a space cadet as it is.

From my understanding of modern sports science, the legal things you might want to consume during a race are:

1. LOADS of sugar, in various guises
2. "electrolytes" aka "salt"
3. caffeine, which enhances mental clarity, boosts VO2, and mutes pain via the release of adrenaline
4. a small amount of protein, such as BCAAs, to reduce muscle damage
5. ketones, although no one can agree on a protocol
6. sodium bicarb, although this stuff is pretty nasty and makes you *** yourself, hence the Maurten™ bicarb system, which incidentally amplifies the cost by about 1000x
7. beet extract, although there are notable trade-offs and I haven't found the utility myself
8. painkillers I guess, not sure which ones are popular or still legal. I have found that vaporized CBD is effective, but I don't see too many riders toking vapes in the middle of a race, so they're stuck with oral administration, plus I would guess it's somewhat risky in case there's some residual THC that could trigger WADA problems
9. oh yeah, and water

Ergogenic aids that need not be consumed during exercise, but have robust evidence supporting chronic administration:

1. creatine
2. beta alanine
3. ashwagandha

Wouldn't cbd make you sleepy?

 

[noob]

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MfWlUWFd0OQ


Btw does this guy have any credit? Is he from here? He's to analyse the crash tomorrow he said

 

[proffate]

Wouldn't cbd make you sleepy?

not to my knowledge or in my experience.

 

[noob]

not to my knowledge or in my experience.

Thanks! I tried to buy it for sleeping and now I won't be sad that I didn't manage to get 🤭

 

[Nomad]

No, it would not have to be very minor. Horner published his passport data, and it was evident that he used blood bags during the 2013 Vuelta, but he wasn't flagged for that.

Great point - an anti-doping expert definitely saw suspicious fluctuations both with Hgb & RET% during that Vuelta:

Bio passport expert raises concerns about Horner’s published biological passport values

Also, here's something of interest: Acute hyperhydration can significantly reduce OFF-score sensitivity on the ABP:

Acute hyperhydration reduces athlete biological passport OFF-hr score - PubMed

Anecdotal evidence suggests that athletes hyperhydrate to mask prohibited substances in urine and potentially counteract suspicious fluctuations in blood parameters in the athlete biological passport (ABP). It is examined if acute hyperhydration changes parameters included in the ABP. Twenty...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[noob]

Great point - an anti-doping expert definitely saw suspicious fluctuations both with Hgb & RET% during that Vuelta:

Bio passport expert raises concerns about Horner’s published biological passport values

Also, here's something of interest: Acute hyperhydration can significantly reduce OFF-score sensitivity on the ABP:

Acute hyperhydration reduces athlete biological passport OFF-hr score - PubMed

Anecdotal evidence suggests that athletes hyperhydrate to mask prohibited substances in urine and potentially counteract suspicious fluctuations in blood parameters in the athlete biological passport (ABP). It is examined if acute hyperhydration changes parameters included in the ABP. Twenty...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Poor Hessmann thrown to the wolves 😢

 

[proffate]

Thanks! I tried to buy it for sleeping and now I won't be sad that I didn't manage to get 🤭

Thc can put you to sleep but at the same time it diminishes sleep quality, like alcohol.

 

[ppanther92]

It would have to be very minor blood doping as the ABP hematological module would pick up the anomalies. Secondly, how would teams pull off the logistics of blood doping in today's anti-doping climate without getting caught? The withdrawal process, the packing & storing, transportation to races, the reinfusion process, etc. And then there's the trust needed among the doctors & athletes - hoping there's not the risk of a disgruntled team member whistleblowing on the operation.

Do you remember Operation Aderlass a few years back? The most sophisticated blood doping operation known to mankind. Blood would be reinfused immediately before a race or event & the same amount would be immediately withdrawn after the race (before any testing was done) - this procedure would not show any anomalies on the ABP.

But it took just one disgruntled athlete (an Austrian cyclist) to drop a dime on the operation & the whole thing blew up exposing the doctors & athletes involved with criminal charges filed on the doctors:

Austrian doping: A complete history of Operation Aderlass | Cyclingnews.com

Operation Aderlass: Blood doping investigation part of thread running through cycling's history

www.cyclingnews.com

I pretty much disagree.

ABP preventing EPO/blood doping: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21336951/

Operation Aderlass being sophisticated: I rather think it was insanely amateurish. Some random athletes that haven’t had better access to more sophisticated doping paid a German doctor to meet them at motorway resting areas and give them access to drugs/store blood. And they did blood transfusions themselves in the hotel - no assistance on the medical act (ok, thats doable) and organization.

 

[Netserk]

But samples have have frozen & stored for up to 10 yrs for re-testing. Did you hear about the Olympic gold medalist track cyclist whose competition samples from the 2016 Rio games was just re-analyzed & positive for a SARMs that was undetectable at that time (imagine the look on his face when he was notified of the positive. Lol).

The freezing of the samples for 10 yrs subjected to re-testing as drug detection technology improves - I think would be a huge deterrent in using some crazy undetectable designer drug. In reality, that undetectable substance that the athlete thinks he's outsmarting anti-doping woukd come back to haunt him years later.

WADA welcomes enhanced long-term sample storage and re-analysis program

The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) welcomes today’s announcement by the International Testing Agency (ITA) that it is rolling out and managing a global long-term sample storage and further analysis program on behalf of the International Olympic Commit

www.wada-ama.org

[Robin Hanson voice:] "Anti-doping isn't about catching dopers."

PS: I think @noob might find "The Elephant in the Brain" interesting.