Are We in the We Don't Know Era?

[Nick2413]

I think maybe I am not using the right terms, today Bobby Julich, George Hindcappie, Lance Armstrong all sat around telling semi horror stories about what cycling would have been if they were force feeding @110-140 grams of carbs per hour.
You can see the UCI is fighting to keep some technical control, which they currently don't have.. Video transmission and on rider bidirectional communications have many racing being controlled by a drone type pilot working in a team bus. So real time rider feedback w bio data..guy in a bus seeing available is oxygen, on board calories, heart rate, body temperature, calories used..all things coming to pro bike racing in the near future.. Currently a rider like Remco or Pog can get feedback from headend..so they see wattage output and heart rate currently but soon that data is going to increase by 1000%.
I am not big on conspiracy theories but I ...just know that pro cycling is still one today like it has been for @80+ years.. LA was a nuclear bomb and everyone involved is not going to let that happen again..

Those things no doubt have an impact but all the real time info in the world can’t suddenly make them go up a climb 10% faster like we saw last week. I hope they put a lid on it for the sake of racing though. Big data is ruining sport imo

 

[awavey]

I answered #2 but it's a very technical 2, in that it's possible that they are doing something which is, technically, not literally illegal, but probably should be illegal and would be illegal as soon as someone figures out what it is.

absolutely, I know maybe 8-9 years ago pre Rio I think, there were supplements you could take, that I still dont think are banned, its just now everyone uses them so theres little performance advantage from them now, that improved your recovery time from physical efforts alot, and it was used in lots of sports where recovery time was important and certainly for a while gave some a winning advantage.

and if you explained it to the public, as these athletes are taking something that means they gain a winning advantage over those that dont, youd instantly see it as illegal doping, and yet for whatever reason its never been added to that list of illegal stuff, and maybe it is just availability or its harder to ban as a thing, I dont know.

but yeah I agree theyre doing something thats definitely across the line of what we would consider doping, but is within the rules or our ability to test within the rules at least.

 

[awavey]

If these are all reasons for the sudden and wide-spread jump, they all could easily be replicated in other endurance sports. I am not seeing records being torn apart by ~10 guys in any other sport in the last year.

I think cycling has switched to an open policy like US pro sports or fotball where nobody relevant is going to be caught for the spectacle. Recently, we are not seeing a police or a law operation taking it over like BALCO, Festina, and Puerto as well

but is cycling one of the few endurance sports where we can see records torn apart like that ? other endurance sports might be on the same path, doing the same stuff, but how do you measure a record being broken in say football ? and yet most of the players in the top leagues look like theyre on something.

 

[firefly3323]

It's finally confirmed, the Giro is the best prep for the Tour. A punctured lung is the next best prep.

and a broken collarbone and scapula are the third best prep.

 

[fbjim]

well golf has seen massive gains in scoring and differences in strategy in the last five years or so but uh, i think cycling might take a bit more endurance than golf

 

[Can Racing Fan]

I find it hard to believe anyone thinks they're riding clean , Pog's setting record times , blowing people away without breaking a sweat after easily winning the Giro and Vin comes back from serious injuries with little prep and is clearly the 2nd best rider.

I just hope for the riders sake whatever they're taking doesn't have long term health issues .

 

[cnort]

but is cycling one of the few endurance sports where we can see records torn apart like that ? other endurance sports might be on the same path, doing the same stuff, but how do you measure a record being broken in say football ? and yet most of the players in the top leagues look like theyre on something.

I think we should also bear in mind that in, say, the marathon, many people try to break the record numerous times a year on different courses. If you take climbs in the Tour, some are used infrequently and the context is inconsistent - position in stage, stage in race, race situation, etc. I can see why records may jump on Tour climbs, but this year was taking the micky.

Remember Robert Millar's facial expression as he fought up the Bonette in the 90s? He was not a happy camper. They seem to mostly calmly breathe through the nose now, like good old Jalabert taught the world to do.

Something's rotten in the world of cycling, and a good few teams seem to be in on the secret.

 

[Floatstick]

I find it hard to believe anyone thinks they're riding clean , Pog's setting record times , blowing people away without breaking a sweat after easily winning the Giro and Vin comes back from serious injuries with little prep and is clearly the 2nd best rider.

I just hope for the riders sake whatever they're taking doesn't have long term health issues .

Same here, I hope that whatever they are doing doesn't wreck them some years down the road. It is definitely possible to use PEDs in a safe way but I that is all old school stuff.

I also find it hard to believe people think any of the contenders aren't doping. All the rationalizations I have seen are the same as they always were: they have too much to lose; nutrition is better; bikes are better; teams are more specialized; there was a tailwind; the passport would catch them. My rider is not doping but his opponent is, or is doping harder.

All of the improvements do matter but doping still gives them an advantage on top of them, and everyone wants every second they can get. Guys dope to win a set of wheels in their local crit race. They dope for Strava KOMs. That they wouldn't dope when millions are on the line is silly.

 

[Brullnux]

If these are all reasons for the sudden and wide-spread jump, they all could easily be replicated in other endurance sports. I am not seeing records being torn apart by ~10 guys in any other sport in the last year.

I think cycling has switched to an open policy like US pro sports or fotball where nobody relevant is going to be caught for the spectacle. Recently, we are not seeing a police or a law operation taking it over like BALCO, Festina, and Puerto as well

Tbh I think footballers don't look much faster and fitter than 10-15 years ago, maybe the number of games has caught up to them but the sport has slowed down noticeably. There are always the very obviously doped teams like Atalanta and the TUE abuse by Liverpool, but the mid-to-late 2010s pressing peak has passed.

Cycling normally is ahead of the game in this kind of stuff, though (TUEs, for instance, came to football later) so could be that cyclists are doing things other sports have not yet begun to do?

 

[Brullnux]

The calorie intake doesn’t increase ceiling, which is what’s increased by 10% in the last year or less. They’re beating performances that weren’t even possible on TTs when glycogen stores would never be an issue. All the talk about tech/nutrition is straight fantasy. What training and nutrition advancements happened in the last 10 days?

I agree re bike tech, but there have definitely been massive improvements in nutrition and post/pre race care among cycling teams. It's wrong to ignore them, especially as it doesn't take away from the fact Pogacar's performances are still utterly ridiculous. All things being equal, these improvements would never have taken Pogacar and co back to 6.8 w/kg for 45 minutes.

 

[Netserk]

Tbh I think footballers don't look much faster and fitter than 10-15 years ago, maybe the number of games has caught up to them but the sport has slowed down noticeably. There are always the very obviously doped teams like Atalanta and the TUE abuse by Liverpool, but the mid-to-late 2010s pressing peak has passed.

Cycling normally is ahead of the game in this kind of stuff, though (TUEs, for instance, came to football later) so could be that cyclists are doing things other sports have not yet begun to do?

I think it's more a case of cycling having been held back and is now catching up.

 

[snipeheem]

Tbh I think footballers don't look much faster and fitter than 10-15 years ago, maybe the number of games has caught up to them but the sport has slowed down noticeably. There are always the very obviously doped teams like Atalanta and the TUE abuse by Liverpool, but the mid-to-late 2010s pressing peak has passed.

Cycling normally is ahead of the game in this kind of stuff, though (TUEs, for instance, came to football later) so could be that cyclists are doing things other sports have not yet begun to do?

Football has changed a lot in the last 10 years. Pressing all game , strength , speed everything go up its crazy to watch this games right now comparing to 10-15 years ago when they were just jogging on the pitch

 

[awavey]

Football has changed a lot in the last 10 years. Pressing all game , strength , speed everything go up its crazy to watch this games right now comparing to 10-15 years ago when they were just jogging on the pitch

I only really pay attention to it for major tournaments, and when I get dragged along by friends to games occasionally, so maybe the differences are more notably starker, but the players seem to be able to run through brick walls for the whole game at such a pace, tv really does do the game an injustice at how much speed and strength theyve got in real life, and they just look physically not just pro athlete, but like super pro athlete.

and Im always getting ribbed by those friends whove dragged me along to those games about pro cyclists always taking drugs, and I just comeback with do you really think footballers can play like that and look like that just because they spend abit of extra time down the gym.

 

[Brullnux]

Football has changed a lot in the last 10 years. Pressing all game , strength , speed everything go up its crazy to watch this games right now comparing to 10-15 years ago when they were just jogging on the pitch

I don't think this is a very accurate assessment of how football has developed over the past fifteen years, especially over the past five. The best teams in the world press a lot less now than they did in the back end of the 2010s, and the game has slowed considerably (Manchester City a key eg). To add to that, while pressing has become more intense since 2010, the game is much more compact, especially in England. End to end football is extremely rare nowadays, it tends to be teams camped in one end then the other depending the momentum in that moment. You don't get basketball style matches (the Euros, especially, was very very controlled). So I don't really buy the "footballers are much fitter" story – compared to the 90s, sure, but premier league players were actual drunks. Compared to early 2010s it's not been a major shift, even if the form of that fitness has differed. Leeds and Atalanta were probably the most obviously doping teams, the entire Liverpool team had masses of TUEs, too.

I think it's more a case of cycling having been held back and is now catching up.

Also unconvinced by this. Cycling over the past decades has led the way on every new PED development there is. Plus, footballers aren't performing at totally abnormal levels of physical function in the way Pogacar is here. Someone like McTominay, one of the fittest players in the Premier League, ran a 16 minute interval 5k, which is not that out there (probably translates to an 18 minute non-interval 5k, and I have friends/family who run that). Pogacar/Vingegaard's performances are so far beyond what footballers do. I can't speak for other sports, I know them less, but I don't see much evidence in terms of athletic performance that cycling is catching up to a sport like football, given that most footballers are well within the realm of low-level doping rather than 60% HC doping.

 

[Brullnux]

I only really pay attention to it for major tournaments, and when I get dragged along by friends to games occasionally, so maybe the differences are more notably starker, but the players seem to be able to run through brick walls for the whole game at such a pace, tv really does do the game an injustice at how much speed and strength theyve got in real life, and they just look physically not just pro athlete, but like super pro athlete.

and Im always getting ribbed by those friends whove dragged me along to those games about pro cyclists always taking drugs, and I just comeback with do you really think footballers can play like that and look like that just because they spend abit of extra time down the gym.

Surprised you think this, given this past major tournament was probably the slowest of any I have watched in the past decade, and only Spain didn't look dead on their feet from minute one.

 

[snipeheem]

I don't think this is a very accurate assessment of how football has developed over the past fifteen years, especially over the past five. The best teams in the world press a lot less now than they did in the back end of the 2010s, and the game has slowed considerably (Manchester City a key eg). To add to that, while pressing has become more intense since 2010, the game is much more compact, especially in England. End to end football is extremely rare nowadays, it tends to be teams camped in one end then the other depending the momentum in that moment. You don't get basketball style matches (the Euros, especially, was very very controlled). So I don't really buy the "footballers are much fitter" story – compared to the 90s, sure, but premier league players were actual drunks. Compared to early 2010s it's not been a major shift, even if the form of that fitness has differed. Leeds and Atalanta were probably the most obviously doping teams, the entire Liverpool team had masses of TUEs, too.



Also unconvinced by this. Cycling over the past decades has led the way on every new PED development there is. Plus, footballers aren't performing at totally abnormal levels of physical function in the way Pogacar is here. Someone like McTominay, one of the fittest players in the Premier League, ran a 16 minute interval 5k, which is not that out there (probably translates to an 18 minute non-interval 5k, and I have friends/family who run that). Pogacar/Vingegaard's performances are so far beyond what footballers do. I can't speak for other sports, I know them less, but I don't see much evidence in terms of athletic performance that cycling is catching up to a sport like football, given that most footballers are well within the realm of low-level doping rather than 60% HC doping.

Look at the games from 10-15 years ago a look how much space the players had, in todays game its zero space instant pressing from 2-3 defenders

 

[Brullnux]

Look at the games from 10-15 years ago a look how much space the players had, in todays game its zero space instant pressing from 2-3 defenders

Yeah but that's also come from an emphasis on making the pitch really compact at all times. 15 years ago you would never see a team play with 50m behind them. Players have a lot less ground to cover than they used to, so the pressing gets emphasised. Modern football basically has 20 players compressed within 30m at all times, football from 15 years ago had 20 players spread out across 50-60m. But, like I said, the best teams have toned down their pressing considerably from ~2017. Manchester City went from 7 PPDA to around 12 PPDA, which is lower than it was a decade ago. I'm unconvinced players are considerably fitter from the 00s Puerto years beyond tactical changes that make it appear so.

 

[Netserk]

Also unconvinced by this. Cycling over the past decades has led the way on every new PED development there is. Plus, footballers aren't performing at totally abnormal levels of physical function in the way Pogacar is here. Someone like McTominay, one of the fittest players in the Premier League, ran a 16 minute interval 5k, which is not that out there (probably translates to an 18 minute non-interval 5k, and I have friends/family who run that). Pogacar/Vingegaard's performances are so far beyond what footballers do. I can't speak for other sports, I know them less, but I don't see much evidence in terms of athletic performance that cycling is catching up to a sport like football, given that most footballers are well within the realm of low-level doping rather than 60% HC doping.

It has also led the way in anti-doping. Cycling slowed down after Operación Puerto, not catching back up until the pandemic. Football never slowed down.

 

[awavey]

Surprised you think this, given this past major tournament was probably the slowest of any I have watched in the past decade, and only Spain didn't look dead on their feet from minute one.

well I freely admit Im not an expert watcher of football, but there was a game where the England players looked completely unfit in comparison to the oppostion, it was like they were playing in lead boots, and the media and pundits all piled in on them saying we expect better of England players, they carried on and played 2 games into extra time with a manager (in)famously not making early substitutions, and almost made it 3 out of 3, nobody would have been surprised if the final had gone that way either, yet that question mark on their fitness levels never cropped up again in the tournament.

and the media couldnt rely on their normal its the premier league fixture congestion thats the problem with tired players in summer tournaments, because lots of the other teams had premier league players who looked fresh as daisies in comparison.

 

[awavey]

Also unconvinced by this. Cycling over the past decades has led the way on every new PED development there is. Plus, footballers aren't performing at totally abnormal levels of physical function in the way Pogacar is here. Someone like McTominay, one of the fittest players in the Premier League, ran a 16 minute interval 5k, which is not that out there (probably translates to an 18 minute non-interval 5k, and I have friends/family who run that). Pogacar/Vingegaard's performances are so far beyond what footballers do. I can't speak for other sports, I know them less, but I don't see much evidence in terms of athletic performance that cycling is catching up to a sport like football, given that most footballers are well within the realm of low-level doping rather than 60% HC doping.

but its worth remembering we are pointing out Pog & Vingo, maybe even Remco & Roglic to an extent are so off the charts at the moment, they arent representative of all of cycling performance, theyre very much the outliers, even if theyre the most visibile because of the way cycling as a sport is goes to the victor the spoils.

in football there could easily be an outlier of Pog & Vingo capablity, but hidden amongst a team of lesser capable players who ultimately dont achieve the team results and success, that the individual is capable of.

I mean I thought there was a Premier league player this year who had nearly matched Usain Bolts world record 100m pace at sprinting ? and most of the sprint records in the league had been set within the last 2 seasons or something.

which is clearly down to the tech of the studs in their boots right

 

[Brullnux]

It has also led the way in anti-doping. Cycling slowed down after Operación Puerto, not catching back up until the pandemic. Football never slowed down.

I'm honestly not sure that any footballers are putting in physical efforts that compare to even 6 w/kg for 30 minutes, let alone what Pogacar and co do. To go back to McTominay, he was someone who could run a 34 minute 10km as a teenager (nothing outrageous), has put on muscle, and now does a 16 minute interval 5k (so between 17 and 18 min 5k if flat out). This isn't an absurd level of physical performance, and he's considered to be the fittest player at Manchester United.

The current peloton remains, on available evidence, well ahead – at least, I don't think there's much evidence outside of vibes to suggest that cycling 'slowed down' relative to football. If there is some, would be happy to be pointed in that direction, but the fitness level of Premier League footballers to me does not appear as ridiculous as what the peloton has been doing since 2020.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Yeah but that's also come from an emphasis on making the pitch really compact at all times. 15 years ago you would never see a team play with 50m behind them. Players have a lot less ground to cover than they used to, so the pressing gets emphasised. Modern football basically has 20 players compressed within 30m at all times, football from 15 years ago had 20 players spread out across 50-60m. But, like I said, the best teams have toned down their pressing considerably from ~2017. Manchester City went from 7 PPDA to around 12 PPDA, which is lower than it was a decade ago. I'm unconvinced players are considerably fitter from the 00s Puerto years beyond tactical changes that make it appear so.

I don't know if PPDA is such a good measurement for fitness, this can vary for so many tactical reasons. Also I don't think football is in any way or form cleaner than other sports, it's just that your target audiene for doping is selected on a wider scale of abilities than endurance. You can have someone who could potentially win a GT like Remco, to someone like Xavi who had trouble finishing games. Needless to say your needs for enhancement are going to be different. While Remco as a pro footballer shouldn't need much endurance enhancing, your technically brilliant player with a high footballing IQ but who can't run could be more in need of it. Football is also really badly monitored when it comes to doping so the incentive to not use tried and tested methods and go for something new is lower I'd guess. Also because football is more a sport of sprinting in intervals than running for 90 minutes.
As to the compactness argument:
In my memory it's lightyears away from the compactness of teams even longer ago. Before the offside rule was reformed you'd have offside traps so high, the effective field of play would be massively reduced. Passive offside alone stretches out the play, because players can gamble and actually come from passive situations into active ones.

 

[Netserk]

I'm honestly not sure that any footballers are putting in physical efforts that compare to even 6 w/kg for 30 minutes, let alone what Pogacar and co do. To go back to McTominay, he was someone who could run a 34 minute 10km as a teenager (nothing outrageous), has put on muscle, and now does a 16 minute interval 5k (so between 17 and 18 min 5k if flat out). This isn't an absurd level of physical performance, and he's considered to be the fittest player at Manchester United.

The current peloton remains, on available evidence, well ahead – at least, I don't think there's much evidence outside of vibes to suggest that cycling 'slowed down' relative to football. If there is some, would be happy to be pointed in that direction, but the fitness level of Premier League footballers to me does not appear as ridiculous as what the peloton has been doing since 2020.

In cycling, it's evident that EPO had a huge impact, but that the peloton slowed after Festina (and the EPO test). It gained ground again until Puerto, but didn't reach the EPO speeds. Then it was at its slowest from the passport to the pandemic. We have good measures of the peloton's speed, and we can point to what managed to slow it down.

Comparing the physical efforts of football with cycling is very tricky. First of all because it's not an endurance sport that is about such efforts. Rather than doing a direct comparison of the two sports today, I find it more illuminating to compare the trajectories of the two sports. We know football players used EPO, we know they used blood bags. Afaik, Fuentes had more football business than cycling business. Did football slow down after Puerto? Did football get the same anti-doping treatment afterwards that cycling did? Afaik, there's nothing to suggest that football players became less fit afterwards.

 

[Amazinmets87]

At this point I'm just hoping it's pure genetic enhancement and they aren't using motors.

 

[42x16ss]

In cycling, it's evident that EPO had a huge impact, but that the peloton slowed after Festina (and the EPO test). It gained ground again until Puerto, but didn't reach the EPO speeds. Then it was at its slowest from the passport to the pandemic. We have good measures of the peloton's speed, and we can point to what managed to slow it down.

Comparing the physical efforts of football with cycling is very tricky. First of all because it's not an endurance sport that is about such efforts. Rather than doing a direct comparison of the two sports today, I find it more illuminating to compare the trajectories of the two sports. We know football players used EPO, we know they used blood bags. Afaik, Fuentes had more football business than cycling business. Did football slow down after Puerto? Did football get the same anti-doping treatment afterwards that cycling did? Afaik, there's nothing to suggest that football players became less fit afterwards.

Never forget Fuentes was dragged from the stand and given a gag order for offering to give ALL his clients' names in court.

The only time ADAs have been effective is when they're allowed to do their jobs. See Pierre Bordry in 07/08