Are you afraid?

[frenchfry]

Problem is that the way you put it, then if a cyclist is being hit by a car, while not looking like a walking (cycling) Christmas tree then, it's, automatically and no matter the circumstances, the cyclists own fault.

If I recall correctly one of your arguments for high viz was "Lights aren't vissible from the sides"
Erhm... heard of refleces? On the wheels!

Some lights have some lateral illumination, more or less effecitve.

I don't think it is a matter of automatically putting the fault on the cyclist, but I tend to agree with Cycle Chic that cyclists have some responsibility in assuring they are visable. We shouldn't assume that it is up to other road users to see us no matter what the conditions.

Interesting that on page 1 of the forum link that Aapjes posted there is a picture of a group riding at night with both vests and lights, and for me it is the vests that are by far the most visible in the light of the headlights. You have to scroll down a bit.

http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68069&sid=46018bb176268052a7da14df6237db1b

 

[RedheadDane]

Of course it's a shared responsibility. Which is why every cyclist should wear the mandatory lights and refleces on his/her bike. If high viz clothing was to become mandatory then yes, everybody should wear high viz.

Besides; if I recall correctly part of the original purpose of this thread was weather or not people was afraid because of drivers being selfish I own the road jerks.
I'm pretty sure those people wouldn't care even if the cyclists wrapped themselves in Christmas lights...

Interesting that on page 1 of the forum link that Aapjes posted there is a picture of a group riding at night with both vests and lights, and for me it is the vests that are by far the most visible in the light of the headlights. You have to scroll down a bit.

http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68069&sid=46018bb176268052a7da14df6237db1b

Yet it looks like not one of them are wearing actual lights!

 

[Cycle Chic]

Problem is that the way you put it, then if a cyclist is being hit by a car, while not looking like a walking (cycling) Christmas tree then, it's, automatically and no matter the circumstances, the cyclists own fault.

absolutely not ! we are in the minority and we know how scary it is to be passed by a car at speed and driving close to us. BUT most people do not ride a bike and are unaware of how scary it is. I practically drive on the other side of the road when i see a cyclist. The majority of drivers think that its fine to give you a few inches...they have no clue how frightening that is.

With the driving test they should make people get on a bike and the instructor pass at speed and close.. to give them an idea of cycling.

 

[aphronesis]

absolutely not ! we are in the minority and we know how scary it is to be passed by a car at speed and driving close to us. BUT most people do not ride a bike and are unaware of how scary it is. I practically drive on the other side of the road when i see a cyclist. The majority of drivers think that its fine to give you a few inches...they have no clue how frightening that is.

With the driving test they should make people get on a bike and the instructor pass at speed and close.. to give them an idea of cycling.

People who drive to the far side of the road frighten me more than people who just whiz by--what happens when an idiot comes blowing down the opposite lane?

For the sake of argument, let's look at the extreme side of your case. Tuesday some contractor/plumber/painter in a white work van (based on my limited experience, they are the most consistently a problem) blew out of a turn and clipped me, knocked me over and probably managed to crack a rib--along with the usual hip/knee abrasions.

When I got up he told me that it was my fault because I don't pay road tax, don't have insurance, didn't have a high viz vest on, nor a helmet.

You probably know better than I that the road tax argument is crap and hasn't applied for years. Since I'm unlikely to hurt anyone, I don't need insurance, helmets aren't mandatory and despite the lack of vest, I have a rather large neon orange back pack. You'll recall also, that Tuesday morning was the most stunningly clear day we've had in three months.

So, his statements were nothing more than guilty fiction, and while all black with no lights is not the way to go, there are I and many who don't want to have to pursue absurdist social prophylactics at every turn in order to protect ourselves from the ignorance and/or resentment of some who are on the road (because that protection won't come).

Wholesale education and awareness raising are, as has been suggested to you, equally necessary.

 

[ElChingon]

People who drive to the far side of the road frighten me more than people who just whiz by--what happens when an idiot comes blowing down the opposite lane?

Good point. The main problem with these overly cautious drivers is they end up endangering everyone. They move so far away from you they sometimes end up across the yellow line and if a car is coming from a blind corner, tight turn, driveway, or yes even head on they may end up in an accident and well even end up involving the cyclist who the original driver was trying to avoid. All that is needed is for the driver to be in their lane not at any extreme of it, that is enough room, as long as the cyclist is also in their designated area as well.

Hence why there are designated lanes or lines to distinguish where each vehicle should be.

 

[Archibald]

interesting comments on the hi-viz vs lights bit...

scenario that occured the other evening - a 'P' plater driving without their lights on. Well, not just the 'P' plater, as we saw 2 cars go by (while waiting in a cab rank) that had no lights on either.

So, with no headlights shining up the road, how does your "reflective" hi-viz vest work?

 

[frenchfry]

interesting comments on the hi-viz vs lights bit...

scenario that occured the other evening - a 'P' plater driving without their lights on. Well, not just the 'P' plater, as we saw 2 cars go by (while waiting in a cab rank) that had no lights on either.

So, with no headlights shining up the road, how does your "reflective" hi-viz vest work?

Did anyone suggest only wearing a reflective vest and not having lights?

I didn't think so.

 

[Cycle Chic]

=aphronesis;1093145.....clipped me, knocked me over and probably managed to crack a rib--along with the usual hip/knee abrasions. ...When I got up he told me that it was my fault because I don't pay road tax, don't have insurance, didn't have a high viz vest on, nor a helmet.
...Wholesale education and awareness raising are, as has been suggested to you, equally necessary.

I didnt say that the drivers were blameless. The BBC1 programme the other night showed some terrible incidents in and around London. Of course the drivers are ignorant as I have pointed out,.I believe it is because they have never ridden a bike. Their mentality and attitude has to change which must come from the driving test at an early age.

Your accident is terrible and I know the pain you must be in,.i,ve been knocked off by another cyclist and had bad injuries from hitting a busy road. However, WHY DONT YOU WEAR A HELMET. You are very lucky you didnt have head injuries.

 

[42x16ss]

When I hear about well mannered and mentally stable people like this, I certainly do feel afraid.

 

[Archibald]

Did anyone suggest only wearing a reflective vest and not having lights?

I didn't think so.

you, yourself, responded to someone to say that it isn't one or the other... perhaps that person was implying such?

 

[frenchfry]

you, yourself, responded to someone to say that it isn't one or the other... perhaps that person was implying such?

I was replying to this post by Arnout, in which it appears to me that he is saying that if you wear high visibility clothing you likely won't use lights:

Hi-vi jackets are extremely dangerous. Wearing them makes people think they don't need lights. A tiny little light on both sides makes you way more visible in the dark than all hi-vi jackets combined.

I can't understand why this is a polarising issue. Obviously, high visibility clothing isn't dangerous. In some lighting conditions it may not be the best solution to being visible, but at the very least it will be complementary to other means such as adequate lighting. I suggest that for maximum visability you should wear reflective clothing AND have proper lights.

In no situation that I can think of is the wearing of high visibility clothing more dangerous than not wearing it. With the obvious exception of situations where you don't want to be seen like war or playing hide and seek.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Black Kit = Madness




Shane Stokes‏@SSbike
Was out driving yesterday - really noticed how less visible riders are in black clothing. Risky fashion choice #better2bsafe

 

[RedheadDane]

I suppose you're right, it does have to do with fashion, and winter clothing just tends to be dark.

 

[42x16ss]

Simple solution. I have a couple of plain jerseys and knicks that have small reflective panels on the back of the legs and the shoulders - nothing huge - and a pair of light, hi-viz wristbands.

The jersey and knicks are enough to keep me visible along with a good set of lights and the wristbands are great, as noone can say that they can't see me indicate. This makes me easily visible without having to look like a construction worker...

 

[Sanitiser]

This is false equivalency it's laying blame on the cyclists rather than the motorists should should be aware of their surroundings. Maybe pedestrians should wear hi-viz on shared pathways as well?

 

[42x16ss]

You have a point, however, if a cyclist is lit up like a carousel and still gets hit by a negligent motorist then the motorist has no choice but to face responsibility for their actions when they are caught.

If I ever get hit by some angry, hungover bogan while riding early in the morning, I would like it to be blatantly obvious they are the one at fault.

 

[Sanitiser]

If Australia had strict liability they would be.

Ultimately whatever cyclists do we will always be deemed 'at fault' by members of the public. If all of us were 'lit up like a carousel' I bet the blame would be that we were too 'distracting'. We can't win.

 

[RedheadDane]

Simple solution. I have a couple of plain jerseys and knicks that have small reflective panels on the back of the legs and the shoulders - nothing huge - and a pair of light, hi-viz wristbands.

The jersey and knicks are enough to keep me visible along with a good set of lights and the wristbands are great, as noone can say that they can't see me indicate. This makes me easily visible without having to look like a construction worker...

Yeah, but what when you're just riding in your regular clothes? Those rarely come with reflecses.
But, I gotta agree that wristbands are a good idea.

 

[42x16ss]

If Australia had strict liability they would be.

Ultimately whatever cyclists do we will always be deemed 'at fault' by members of the public. If all of us were 'lit up like a carousel' I bet the blame would be that we were too 'distracting'. We can't win.

A certain demographic will always try and shift blame and responsibility where ever possible but there is a certain understanding slowly building.

Look at the bogan who was convicted of attempted murder and assault for the hit and run in Brisbane late last year. There was a lot less sympathy for the driver than you would normally see.

 

[RedheadDane]

In many ways it's the opposite of afraid a feel when riding my bike. I feel more free, stronger, than I do most other times.

 

[winkybiker]

I had weird experience on my commute this morning. I was slowly rounding a curve on a shared use pathway (I usually assiduously avoid these paths, but this one is very convenient for a short length). I was doing maybe 10-12 km/hr as it was cold and I was wary of frost on that particular curve because it regularly ices up.

No ice this morning, but four pedestrians in a line, blocking about 2/3 of the path were walking towards me. I was on the correct, right-hand (I'm in Canada) edge of the path and on a trajectory to pass them without incident. The gap I was aiming for was about 2m wide.

Nevertheless, as soon as they noticed me one of the pedestrians screamed/yelled in alarm and physically grabbed the person next to them as if to drag them to safety from my path. It was just ridiculous.

But this how cyclists are viewed, it seems. As out-of-control, blind uncaring juggernauts from whose path one must scurry or be dragged to safety. FFS!

 

[alitogata]

I cycle every day.and i dont want to die. But in this country the number of cyclists killed is high. I always cycle with a helmet, lights etc, and on pavement when i can and rarely on busy roads and i cross busy roundabouts as a pedestrian rather than tackling them on my bike etc etc. But its not really about me. There are bad drivers out there, and lots of people who drive drunk or high etc.

Ive had several instances where motherless ****s have endangered my life because they see getting where they want to be 10 seconds earlier as more important then my life. A lot of the cycling deaths in the news here are caused by drunk drivers.

Sometimes i feel it would be wisest to buy a gun and shoot at the tires of anyone who behaves like this. Once stories hit the news, some of these ****s might think twice about driving into a cyclist.

Anyway the point is, i feel that the chances of having a crash with a car are high, maybe even a fatal one, especially for someone like myself who cycles every day.

Im scared. A lot of the dead are students like myself. One moment there is a future ahead of you, the next moment there is nothing.

Is anyone else scared like this?

It seems that cycling in big cities is all about the same everywhere. What you describe is what I live every day. But I don't allow my self to get afraid because this is the worst thing you can do when you ride.

The trick is to claim your place on the road and react accordingly. Usually if you are fast enough and know how to move between cars you will not have problem.

There are two other things that work for me and make me feel safer. I've always have a mirror on the bike and never use spd pedals when I ride downtown. I want to know what happens beside me and be able to drop immediately the bike in case of possible collision with a car.

These have worked for me the last 26 years. So don't let yourself be scared. Ride carefully, fast and focused with your mirror and your flat pedals and everything will be fine.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I am fearless on my bike, always have been. I make cars stop, break or I will kick the mirrors of the car, done it many times. I simply own the road when I go out and ride. I treat my fellow cyclists with utter respect though, just because I see dangerous situations more quickly then others.

Last year I did have a bad accident, a frontal crash with someone who came out of the slipstream on my side of the road. The guy was in real bad shape, so were the bikes. After that crash I did get scared on the bike, payed too much attention to fellow roadusers and had multiple near crashes. So I hung up my bike, can't have crashes since I refuse to wear protection.

Today I was on my first ride of the year, fearless, fellt friggin oldskool great!

What is a worry here in Holland are the mechanical bikes; old folks on roads where cyclist/mountainbikers go 30k/hour and much more getting in the way, and the biggest problem is you can't make a judgement on their speed because the mechanical bike really messes up their cadence. You think they go 10k but in fact they ride at 25k/hour. Really a problem on the small roads.

 

[MarkvW]

It isn't one or the other, the best thing is to wear a reflective vest and have adequate lighting front and rear. In some conditions the vest is more effective than the lighting, sometimes the lighting is more effective. In pitch dark conditions a reflective vest is incredibly visable when lit by car headlights.

On a recent group ride it was getting dark when we got back (delayed by a couple of flats) and the idiots in all black were almost invisable from 2 meters distance. Those with lights and bright or reflective clothing were much more visable and by definition safer. More and more are wearing reflective clothing and have lights.

I find that tiny little lights are ineffective in almost any conditions. Better than nothing, but not much.

I wear stupid black thermal tights in the winter. I'd much rather wear lime green with reflective stripes up and down the front and back of each leg. But nobody sells such an obviously useful product. I'm also looking for a rear light that is as bright as my front light-vwith an onoff program that is random. I want a rear light that slightly ****es the oncoming driver off. That will help with everybody except the violent Yahoos.

Route planning is big for me. I really try to avoid bad roads and traffic. Timing is huge. A road that is blissful at 5:00 a.m. can be terrifying three hours later. The worst for me is when I am on a scary road because of my own dumb mistakes--then it's basically f*** it...if you're gonna kill me, you're gonna kill me. And I'm not too proud to ride sidewalks.

 

[cineteq]

Volvo's doing something.

"The auto firm says vehicles fitted with the system will be able to detect threats including a cyclist suddenly swerving out into a car's path."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21688765