ArmstrongÂ’s 2008-12 samples point to blood doping.

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Apr 28, 2010
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Just noticed it says in the paper on the Biological passport:

In order to use indirect blood doping markers optimally, some aspects must still
be clarified. Certain blood parameters, such as Hgb, may decrease as a result of an
expansion of the plasma volume caused by a sustained effort over several days.
A model describing the causal relationship between effort and marker remains yet to
be validated. Consequently, it is currently impossible to use indirect blood markers
as evidence of doping after several days of competition (for example during the
second week of a major cycling tour). Similarly, no model of serial correlation exists
today for measurements separated by less than five days: particular care is required
for any additional measurement obtained within such a time interval.

So presumably they just throw out data from the latter parts of Grand Tours.
 
Skibby the bush kangaroo said:
Just noticed it says in the paper on the Biological passport:



So presumably they just throw out data from the latter parts of Grand Tours.

Remember, it was an exclusive UCI program.

Just throw out any data you don't like.

Dave.
 
Apr 7, 2009
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Skibby the bush kangaroo said:
Just noticed it says in the paper on the Biological passport:



So presumably they just throw out data from the latter parts of Grand Tours.

Wow...that's a lot of 'Ifs and buts...

I know I wouldn't like to be held to those standards...
 
DonTickles said:
What would we expect to see on the chart for someone if they were engaging in blood doping and microdosing EPO? Maybe someone can break it down for us a bit so we know what we are looking at better?

My speculation would be that Retic % would be highest after a blood draw as the body replaces missing blood with new cells. Is that correct? In that case you might suspect that a blood draw occurred between 30-Apr-09 and 7-May-09 due to the increase to 1.33%. Is there a known way to counter this increase? If Retic % is the percentage of reticulocytes to mature red blood cells then re-adding saline or plasma after the draw shouldn't affect this right? If retic % is a percentage of total volume then it would be easy to control. So which is it?

When blood is put back in you could control the drop in retic % with EPO microdosing to keep it from going too low. Lance's Retic % hits its lowest (of that general timeframe) between 2-July-09 and 11-July-09 around .54%. That's when you would expect him to be packing the blood back in and the body to slow down with red blood cell replacement. My question here is, why wouldn't they have increased the balancing EPO so there are fewer variations? My speculation is that they were seeking to keep the number within "normal" parameters and ignoring trends. "Normal" is apparently between .5% and 1.5%, so use just enough EPO to stay within that range and not trip any alarms, but use the least amount of EPO you can so it won't show up on the EPO test.

Am I on the right track with the retics?

What would be expected trends in off score? I thought it would trend higher when the doping is at its peak, but Lance's off score hits its peak in June, weeks before the tour.

Lastly, can anyone explain the MCV, MCH, and MCHC numbers and what irregularities could be expected when someone is doping or masking doping?

Yes, this is basically correct. Retic % is determined relative to mature cells, so saline transfusion doesn't help, though it will lower the HT.

In the SoS article on the passport, Ross didn’t quite get it all. He said transfusion reduces proportion of retics because you are putting more old cells into the system, with no retics. Actually, the main reason transfusion reduces retics is because the increased number of red cells suppresses synthesis of retics. It’s a homeostatic mechanism. Dopers use EPO to compensate for this. There is no known drug that can suppress retics, though. So when dopers withdraw blood, the resulting elevation of retics can only be hidden by following the withdrawal with a transfusion. That is one reason why dopers tend to do both, the other reason being that if a withdrawal is not followed by a transfusion you will be weak.

The June off-score could have resulted from a withdrawal/infusion cycle in which much more blood was put back in than taken out, in preparation for the Tour. No matter how good your program is, you aren't going to balance things out perfectly. But at this point this is just speculation. That off score of 110 is not that bad.

Also, the linked article in the OP said all of LA’s passport samples were carefully stored and are available. I doubt that very much. Python, I think it was you who posted about a week or two ago that these samples are normally discarded after a few months, and I think that’s right. You can’t store whole blood more than a few weeks. Longer storage requires separating plasma and red cells. The plasma might be stored frozen for long periods of time, so that if tests for new substances become available, they can be applied on those old samples. But I don’t think there would be much point in storing red cells for a long period of time. All you could do is recount the cells and retics, but no reason to think they were counted inaccurately the first time.

Where are you seeing MCV, etc., numbers? They are usually used to understand the possible causes of anemia. Doping should not affect them AFAIK.
 
Skibby the bush kangaroo said:
...

Basically in all cases there are no super anomolies but the level of fluctuation, particularly for the HGB, is a bit dubious.

Skibby - good analysis, however my read is not that the values are or not anomalous on the their own, but the real issue is the behaviour of the values relative to expected patterns during both the year and individual races. That is, it is the rate of change of the values sets off alarm bells.

Is anyone here sufficiently skilled to do an analysis of the probability of the measured changes in blood values being within reasonable ranges? My strength is in exploratory data analysis rather than higher level statistics. (in other words I can easily tell when data isn't behaving the way it is, but don't know the metrics to prove it - and this data stinks).
 
Merckx index said:
In the SoS article on the passport, Ross didn’t quite get it all. He said transfusion reduces proportion of retics because you are putting more old cells into the system, with no retics. Actually, the main reason transfusion reduces retics is because the increased number of red cells suppresses synthesis of retics. It’s a homeostatic mechanism. Dopers use EPO to compensate for this. There is no known drug that can suppress retics, though. So when dopers withdraw blood, the resulting elevation of retics can only be hidden by following the withdrawal with a transfusion. That is one reason why dopers tend to do both, the other reason being that if a withdrawal is not followed by a transfusion you will be weak.

The June off-score could have resulted from a withdrawal/infusion cycle in which much more blood was put back in than taken out, in preparation for the Tour. No matter how good your program is, you aren't going to balance things out perfectly. But at this point this is just speculation. That off score of 110 is not that bad.

To the first bolded, I think you're on the right track. Withdraw/reinfusion are often paired. If done correctly you can bank large amounts of blood with very little disruption to ABP and you can maintain elevated levels of red blood for long periods of time.

To the second bolded, I can see why you would think this but I have a different theory. I think diluting HB is quite easy when you know when to expect the test. This is conjecture but...

...we see high HB in the tests shortly before and after the TdF. This is a dead giveaway to me. I'm guessing based upon the dates that these were more random OOC type of tests or somewhat of a surprise test in competition. I doubt it but did LA ride the TdS before the tour in 09 or the criterium circuit afterwards? It doesn't matter that much but it would be interesting to know.

I believe blood/ABP samples are often taken in the morning at the TdF and a small amount of urine samples are taken after the stage from the stage winner, jersey wearers, and a few totally randoms, etc. LA's HB values are very steady during the tour because they know when to expect testing. There are obvious limitations for testers when athletes are occupied for 5 plus hours of racing every single day. If they're to be ABP tested they know they'll most likely be tested first thing in the AM.

In other words, red blood is being manipulated all throughout the tour. It remains high all throughout June, July, and early August but ironically, it appears more normal during the race because athletes are more diligent and testers are more predictable. They're constantly diluting HB during the tour but let the guard down slightly when out of competition.

Retics don't really make sense until you backwards engineer them too. They are lowest during the tour which suggests to me they are really scared to use EPO during the race or only use it VERY sparingly which also makes sense. A badly timed urine test could spell doom.

LA's 2009 values in and around the giro and tour speak to me very clearly. They are a blatant example of manipulation. BLATANT!

I'm shocked at how effectively LA seemed to dodge allegations up until 2005 and how ineffectively he seemed to dodge them from 2008 onwards. He and his "team" went from doing everything right to do everything wrong during comeback 2.0. The only thing sloppier than their doping was their public relations. At one point the idiots published THIS data to his website. What a bunch of MORONS!
 
Jun 18, 2012
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Big Doopie said:
if the 38 hct level is armstrong's norm -- we can see why he was a phenomenal responder to things like epo.

Exactly, a point most miss. Not everyone responds greatly to EPO, some do some not as much, but it still helps.
 
Jul 20, 2010
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sniper said:
wadler just says it's "a bit unusual" and that it requires "an explanation".
that's certainly nothing new, damning or challenging to LA. The same is true for the 2001 TdS samples: they were "suspicious" etc, but would not count as hard evidence of blloddoping since alternative scenarios would theoretically be able to explain the values.
One (part of an) explanation could be changes in height, etc, as also noted in the respective cyclingnews article on this.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-usada-has-38-armstrong-blood-samples-from-2008-to-2012


In other words, there has to be a bit more than "a bit unusual" values in the LA samples for USADA to call this evidence of blooddoping.
And I'm confident that indeed there is more.

You were probably as confident about the federal case...which was eventually dropped.
 
Jul 20, 2010
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I hope these weren't all the test results, because it already looks like it can be refuted by experts according to various articles.

It looks like the witness testimonies are what is gong to have to win this case for Usada.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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lean said:
I think diluting HB is quite easy when you know when to expect the test. This is conjecture but...

...we see high HB in the tests shortly before and after the TdF. This is a dead giveaway to me. I'm guessing based upon the dates that these were more random OOC type of tests or somewhat of a surprise test in competition. I doubt it but did LA ride the TdS before the tour in 09 or the criterium circuit afterwards? It doesn't matter that much but it would be interesting to know.

I believe blood/ABP samples are often taken in the morning at the TdF and a small amount of urine samples are taken after the stage from the stage winner, jersey wearers, and a few totally randoms, etc. LA's HB values are very steady during the tour because they know when to expect testing. There are obvious limitations for testers when athletes are occupied for 5 plus hours of racing every single day. If they're to be ABP tested they know they'll most likely be tested first thing in the AM.

In other words, red blood is being manipulated all throughout the tour. It remains high all throughout June, July, and early August but ironically, it appears more normal during the race because athletes are more diligent and testers are more predictable. They're constantly diluting HB during the tour but let the guard down slightly when out of competition.

Then why is his Hb profile at the Tour so abnormal? I mean, if you're diluting before each ABP-test, couldn't you achieve the expected declining profile?
 
Tyler'sTwin said:
Then why is his Hb profile at the Tour so abnormal? I mean, if you're diluting before each ABP-test, couldn't you achieve the expected declining profile?

Yes and no.

Firstly, you're giving them too much credit and one thing that's become painfully obvious is that you shouldn't give these guys much credit at all.

Ideally they'd like the HB values to have a very subtle decline over a 3 week race but that kind of fine control probably isn't possible and since it isn't sanctionable they aren't too worried. I doubt they were very concerned with those details as most casual observers weren't looking for those patterns in 2009. Since LA posted these numbers everyone's much more skeptical of those nuances. The slight HB increase looks suspicious to you and I under normal circumstances but forget normal. Nothing about LA's values are normal. I have to confess, it took me awhile to figure out what the h*ll was going on and it wasn't until Catwhoorg graphed the data that I got a good handle on them. Previously, I just didn't care that much to dig through them when everyone already knows what LA is up to.

The most suspicious values are not from the tour. The HB jump from the end of the giro to mid June really stands out. The explanation that a single week at altitude and dehydration (when not racing) caused that jump is silly. It's as legitimate as saying USADA wants to sanction him because they're jealous haters. It's as sophisticated as the dog ate my homework.
 
lean said:
...Snipped some great analysis...

LA's 2009 values in and around the giro and tour speak to me very clearly. They are a blatant example of manipulation. BLATANT!

I'm shocked at how effectively LA seemed to dodge allegations up until 2005 and how ineffectively he seemed to dodge them from 2008 onwards. He and his "team" went from doing everything right to do everything wrong during comeback 2.0. The only thing sloppier than their doping was their public relations. At one point the idiots published THIS data to his website. What a bunch of MORONS!

Excellent point.

But, he and his team didn't really do everything right and then do everything wrong. 'They' have made lots of mistakes, and 'their' arrogance propels them to keep pushing things further in full belief that they will always get away with it.

Meanwhile preying on 'our' stupidity along with fandom/cognitive dissonance, and the enabling collusion within the sport.

Please recall the Vrijman report. That was a far more blatant and frankly hilarious example of BS than Lance's posted BP data. The only 'research' were press clippings.

The defrauding of SCA is a classic example. Coming from a 'hole-in-one' context where the use of artificial aids to place the golf ball would is a bit more challenging than doping to win a Tour, poor SCA hadn't contemplated basic fraud.

Lance is just such a consistent case study, that it is quite remarkable to watch.

The predictability index is very high.

GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH -- a grossly inflated view of one's abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Sociopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings

...CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS- the use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one's victims.


Once the rose-tinted shades come off, it is easy to see that he has never been all that attractive.

Dave.
 
mwbyrd said:
Wow...that's a lot of 'Ifs and buts...

I know I wouldn't like to be held to those standards...

1. Which is why WADA throws out quite a bit of probably useful data.
2. Which is why the threshold for a positive is extremely high.

It isn't the fountain of uncertainty you want it to be.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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python said:
According to NY Daily News USADA has 38 recent blood samples. Some contain strong evidence of blood doping.

Article
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i...ood-attempt-convict-cheater-article-1.1113450


2008-2012 blood parameters
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...nxueWRuZG9jc3xneDo1Mjk0MWEyZTk5YTNmMmMw&pli=1

I quickly scanned the parameters. Indeed his hemoglobin and % reticulocytes fluctuate in some cases wildly. the off-score is also all over the place.

Look the very high off scores and their correlation to major races in which Lance Armstrong competed:

Tour de France, 4–26 July 2009:
108.4 17-Jun-09
98.9 2-Jul-09
thru
95.9 25-Jul-09

Tour Down Under 19 January to 24 January 2010:
102 11-Dec-09 (but no tests in the race?)

Criterium International, March 27-28 2010, Milan-San Remo March 20, 2010:
98.52 13-Mar-10
103.8 19-Mar-10

Tour de France, 3–25 July 2010:
92.5 1-Jul-10
 
mwbyrd said:
If it's not a just a case against LA and 'his doctors', why does USADA only bring suit against LA?? They should bring a case against everyone and not let people off for testifying against LA. It's way too biased for statement #1 to hold water.


Are you REALLY that stupid?

Or are you just relying on uninformed others watching this thread to be as stupid too?
 
Jul 12, 2012
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mwbyrd said:
If it's not a just a case against LA and 'his doctors', why does USADA only bring suit against LA?? They should bring a case against everyone and not let people off for testifying against LA. It's way too biased for statement #1 to hold water.

Lance Armstrong was given a chance to save at least part of his record if he would come clean and name drug sources, evasion methods and those in the medical profession who enabled his doping.
 
Oct 26, 2009
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mwbyrd said:
If it's not a just a case against LA and 'his doctors', why does USADA only bring suit against LA?? They should bring a case against everyone and not let people off for testifying against LA. It's way too biased for statement #1 to hold water.

Do you realize that USADA charged more than one person?
 

the big ring

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Jul 28, 2009
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Jul 12, 2012
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the big ring said:
I had a good look at the ABP website, and it looks pretty friggin easy to me to read an ABP - obviously this is a simple example. WTF is JV et al talking about insaying ABPs are difficult?

Disinformation. Remember Landis' took Dr. Baker saying testosterone was useless to a cyclist...