Armstrong and Landis and Doping, Oh My!

[miloman]

Not sure specifically which part you don't agree with, although you are certainly free to disagree with all of it...

My point about the consumer boycott not working/applying is twofold:
1. In the tuna example, it wasn't US law that was broken. The US gov't had no jurisdiction over the practices of many of the companies. Consumer pressure was the only avenue for change on that front. In the current PEDs in cycling situation, the FDA is investigating possible criminal actions. That's the job of their enforcement arm.

2. The link between Nike and whoever is distributing PEDs is far less direct, at least to many people, than the link between canned tuna and dead dolphins (or between Shell and apartheid or . . .). Boycotts take off when there is something direct and visible (cute, mammalian, and highly intelligent help) for the public to grab onto. I think much public opinion is "Nike sponsors Lance. Lance might be a drug cheat. All professional cyclists are. Who cares?" Contrast that with "In order to catch the tuna in this can, many dolphins were killed as collateral damage!" The company that canned the tuna, killed the dolphins. But Nike didn't buy the PEDs.

I just don't think it's realistic to expect a boycott of LA's sponsors to take off, let alone impact doping in cycling. While I realize the federal government has plenty of shortcomings (no matter which self-serving party is in charge of it at the time), I do recognize that in the case of the Novitsky investigation, a criminal investigator is investigating probable criminal behavior. I hope he finds evidence to support it.

Great post by the way! You mentioned that, “. . . In the tuna example, it wasn't US law that was broken. The US gov't had no jurisdiction over the practices of many of the companies. I contend that that’s the very point that will be argued to some degree of success when the lawyers get a hold of this. Johan Bruyneel is not a US citizen; most all of the racing took place overseas, so drug purchases and use would be outside of the US; Tailwind used foreign banks for transactions; the team operations was based in Europe; I’m not sure what currency they conducted business with, it might be dollars, but I bet it was Euros; the list goes on and on.

Other than sponsors and the management company, most everything is tied to foreign countries. I’m not sure how they will ever get the cooperation needed to get this mess settled. The US Gov’t doesn’t get the love from European countries like it used to.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Agreed; but the US feds might like to track the outgoing US dollars. Since that seems to be a convoluted web that involves int'l bodies/entities that can be implicated in the funding of sketchiness... does that work?

As I've said before (to a forum that really seems to be thick with litigious-savy Americans), help me out. Is that a valid pursuit - to see where quasi-federal money went? I know USPS is quasi-federal, but still not sure how it works out in terms of some of federal claim issues.

I've lurked and read pretty much all of the threads, but do they still need 'the love' of the Euros to make any broad reach possible? If it comes down to gov't money being moved ilegally, or even sorta legally, can they track that to any end that matters?

Would it have to involve complex extradition, or only casual testimony?

Oh man! Look where you guys have put me! It was so much easier when I knew LA was cranked, and could relax in my legal ignorance. The whole US system has me confounded.

Simple answers are good, I've read the stickies and still unsure. Treat me like a ten-year-old...

 

[Oldman]

Agreed; but the US feds might like to track the outgoing US dollars. Since that seems to be a convoluted web that involves int'l bodies/entities that can be implicated in the funding of sketchiness... does that work?

As I've said before (to a forum that really seems to be thick with litigious-savy Americans), help me out. Is that a valid pursuit - to see where quasi-federal money went? I know USPS is quasi-federal, but still not sure how it works out in terms of some of federal claim issues.

I've lurked and read pretty much all of the threads, but do they still need 'the love' of the Euros to make any broad reach possible? If it comes down to gov't money being moved ilegally, or even sorta legally, can they track that to any end that matters?

Would it have to involve complex extradition, or only casual testimony?

Oh man! Look where you guys have put me! It was so much easier when I knew LA was cranked, and could relax in my legal ignorance. The whole US system has me confounded.

Simple answers are good, I've read the stickies and still unsure. Treat me like a ten-year-old...

A US citizen or company making purchases for sale or distribution of controlled substances while on US soil is committing a crime. They can use puka shells for currency stolen from Hawaiian surfers and if they do it via internet, telephone, US Mail or word of mouth it is still illegal. They don't have to see it, touch it or use it. The confirmation of such activity can come from witnesses, taped conversations (think wiretaps), e-files or bank transactions.
If a really savvy person had all assets off shore and left no trail whatsover; they might get away with no US prosecution. Considering the number of people involved it is unlikely and it would still be of interest to a foreign law enforcement body if that activity occurred on their soil.

 

[miloman]

A US citizen or company making purchases for sale or distribution of controlled substances while on US soil is committing a crime. They can use puka shells for currency stolen from Hawaiian surfers and if they do it via internet, telephone, US Mail or word of mouth it is still illegal. They don't have to see it, touch it or use it. The confirmation of such activity can come from witnesses, taped conversations (think wiretaps), e-files or bank transactions.
If a really savvy person had all assets off shore and left no trail whatsover; they might get away with no US prosecution. Considering the number of people involved it is unlikely and it would still be of interest to a foreign law enforcement body if that activity occurred on their soil.

Great Information! A few questions: What if all transactions were conducted on foreign soil? What if all drugs were purchased outside of the US and by citizens of other countries? Would jurisdiction be where the purchases took place, or would prosecution depend on where the person is a naturalized citizen?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Beautiful response, Oldman!

Thanks! Seems to be quite a conundrum for the boys...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Good question, milo;

What about US money on foreign soil... I'm assuming that if it's the money of a US corp/entity then it shouldn't matter. Is that right? It's still pursuing illegal objects through the process of US/gov't funded money, does the territory of the transaction matter since you know where the money came from and where it's going?

I'm hoping YES, but as I've said...

 

[Barrus]

Great Information! A few questions: What if all transactions were conducted on foreign soil? What if all drugs were purchased outside of the US and by citizens of other countries? Would jurisdiction be where the purchases took place, or would prosecution depend on where the person is a naturalized citizen?

If this is the case, the case will than most likely focus on the possible fraud-aspect of the case. In that case they will have jurisdiction as it is an American company that has been defrauded

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Totally off-topic:

Am I the only one who thinks of Judy Garland when I read this thread title?

Susan

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Totally off-topic:

Am I the only one who thinks of Judy Garland when I read this thread title?

Susan

Nope, but I may be a bit of Queen...

 

[TexPat]

Lions and tigers and bears! Oh my!

 

[miloman]

I have had some time to look over all the posts on this thread and there have been some very convincing arguments. I confess, I’m still uneasy about how well thought out this investigation is, though. Let me explain, I can’t help wonder, given the potential cost of the investigation, is it worth going down this path? Sure, like most people, I’m curious about all the details, and who knew what, and how they did it, etc., but from a monetary point of view, what does the federal government hope gain from this? Aren’t we seeing typical government waste by throwing good money after bad?

By most accounts the Balco case cost upwards of $50 million dollars. I would fully expect this investigation to cost substantially more, since they will be dealing with activities that took place outside of the US. I looked up a few articles related to pro cycling sponsorships and came up with this. Now I realize that pro cycling team budgets and sponsorships fees can change from year to year, but as near as I can figure, the average sponsorship for a protour-caliber team is in the neighborhood of $5 to $10 million dollars a year (see link)
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...r+a+pro+cycling+team&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Using that formula, the most the USPS spent on the team over the period when Lance was aboard is somewhere between $30 - $60 million dollars. Certainly a lot of money by most standards, but a drop in the bucket when you consider the Dallas Cowboy Football team is reported to be worth $1.6 Billion dollars, that’s Billion with a “B”!

So unless they can go after some of the principle players in hopes of collecting damages on top of the $30 plus million spent on the sponsorship, they are still going to see a huge deficit. (I guess that’s nothing new for the feds is it?) However, I would suspect that anyone within Tailwind, with a substantial fortune to protect, has been sufficiently insulated from this ever happening; as it is within most corporations.

So other than to satisfy my morbid curiosity, is it still the right course to follow? Will it clean up pro cycling? Will the victims ever be compensated? Maybe someone should just write a book and detail everything that went on behind the scenes instead. I know I’d buy it, I bought all the others. Let me know what you think? One last thought, does anyone else think it’s interesting that none of the other past, or present sponsors of the team are crying “foul” and asking for their money back? Maybe they figure they got what they paid for out of the relationship.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I have had some time to look over all the posts on this thread and there have been some very convincing arguments. I confess, I’m still uneasy about how well thought out this investigation is, though. Let me explain, I can’t help wonder, given the potential cost of the investigation, is it worth going down this path? Sure, like most people, I’m curious about all the details, and who knew what, and how they did it, etc., but from a monetary point of view, what does the federal government hope gain from this? Aren’t we seeing typical government waste by throwing good money after bad?

By most accounts the Balco case cost upwards of $50 million dollars. I would fully expect this investigation to cost substantially more, since they will be dealing with activities that took place outside of the US. I looked up a few articles related to pro cycling sponsorships and came up with this. Now I realize that pro cycling team budgets and sponsorships fees can change from year to year, but as near as I can figure, the average sponsorship for a protour-caliber team is in the neighborhood of $5 to $10 million dollars a year (see link)
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...r+a+pro+cycling+team&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Using that formula, the most the USPS spent on the team over the period when Lance was aboard is somewhere between $30 - $60 million dollars. Certainly a lot of money by most standards, but a drop in the bucket when you consider the Dallas Cowboy Football team is reported to be worth $1.6 Billion dollars, that’s Billion with a “B”!

So unless they can go after some of the principle players in hopes of collecting damages on top of the $30 plus million spent on the sponsorship, they are still going to see a huge deficit. (I guess that’s nothing new for the feds is it?) However, I would suspect that anyone within Tailwind, with a substantial fortune to protect, has been sufficiently insulated from this ever happening; as it is within most corporations.

So other than to satisfy my morbid curiosity, is it still the right course to follow? Will it clean up pro cycling? Will the victims ever be compensated? Maybe someone should just write a book and detail everything that went on behind the scenes instead. I know I’d buy it, I bought all the others. Let me know what you think? One last thought, does anyone else think it’s interesting that none of the other past, or present sponsors of the team are crying “foul” and asking for their money back? Maybe they figure they got what they paid for out of the relationship.

I see you have gone back to trying to make justice a business decision.

Let me quote Travis Tygart of USADA to help you.

“Our sports are the fabric of our American way of life. They teach us all that dedication, character, hard work, playing fair can lead to fulfillment and accomplishment. … We do not tolerate this type of corruption and fraud in business, academia or other important institutions. Why should we accept it in sports?

“The answer is clear we should not,”

 

[miloman]

I gather then, that you are one who believes it is well worth the cost; that's fair enough. I'm sure there are a lot of people who agree with you. I'm all for justice being served, I hope it will be!

 

[theswordsman]

The FDA investigation isn't about recouping money, the lawsuit is. And it's a criminal investigation. Are they only supposed to investigate criminal activity if it's cost effective? Remember this investigation lead to Armstrong et al, it didn't start with them (I read something about a sham marriage?). Once Landis came forward and gave a ton of details, could they really not pursue the matter?

Another thread asks about the amount of USPS money people think was spent on PED's. But the question is, did the team, Tailwind, etc. violate their agreement by cheating and covering it up, possibly with bribes to people in labs or officials, so that the government funded agency would continue giving them money? If they cheated the first year, the other years should never have happened.

If the hospital conversation was related accurately, Armstrong was doping on other teams, would probably have planned to do it as leader of his own team, and so entered into the contract with the intent of violating one of the provisions and getting away with it.

There are a lot of people that can be vindicated when this all comes to light, and can hopefully get their lives back.

It would be kind of fun if the Feds, in court, accuse them of using USPS money for doping, and their defense is not that they didn't dope, but that they funded it by selling bikes.

 

[miloman]

The FDA investigation isn't about recouping money, the lawsuit is. And it's a criminal investigation. Are they only supposed to investigate criminal activity if it's cost effective? Remember this investigation lead to Armstrong et al, it didn't start with them (I read something about a sham marriage?). Once Landis came forward and gave a ton of details, could they really not pursue the matter?

Another thread asks about the amount of USPS money people think was spent on PED's. But the question is, did the team, Tailwind, etc. violate their agreement by cheating and covering it up, possibly with bribes to people in labs or officials, so that the government funded agency would continue giving them money? If they cheated the first year, the other years should never have happened.

If the hospital conversation was related accurately, Armstrong was doping on other teams, would probably have planned to do it as leader of his own team, and so entered into the contract with the intent of violating one of the provisions and getting away with it.

There are a lot of people that can be vindicated when this all comes to light, and can hopefully get their lives back.

It would be kind of fun if the Feds, in court, accuse them of using USPS money for doping, and their defense is not that they didn't dope, but that they funded it by selling bikes.

I understand that, but for sake of argument, they have been lumped together because the one drives the other. It would seem to me that whatever is uncovered by the investigation, will be used in the criminal case. But humor me, what if they get nowhere with this case and it drags on for years. How enthusiastic will you be, if five years from now, we are still no closer to having closure on this?

You mentioned Lance’s intentions following his “alleged” confession at the hospital. Yes, maybe he did intend to go back to his old ways and dope, or maybe, just maybe, he made the connection of the drugs to his cancer. It could also have been his intention to never, ever do anything like that again. I think it would be a compelling argument that when faced with his own mortality, he chose to never take the risk again. But again, it’s all conjecture.

I do think it’s fascinating that in the first few races back, Lance was never a real factor and from what I recall, all but retired. I think the story goes that Bob Roll reignited Lance’s passion for the bike during training rides in Boone, Somewhere USA. I often wonder if what really happened there was, Lance decided that he couldn’t compete at the upper level of professional cycling without the PEDs and with his enormous ego, decided it was worth the risk to give it one more try. Pure conjecture!

 

[Benotti69]

I gather then, that you are one who believes it is well worth the cost; that's fair enough. I'm sure there are a lot of people who agree with you. I'm all for justice being served, I hope it will be!

if you are worried about where the american government is spending money you better hope they stop invading countries where dictators they propped up with millions of $$$$$$ and armed for years go awol

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I understand that, but for sake of argument, they have been lumped together because the one drives the other. It would seem to me that whatever is uncovered by the investigation, will be used in the criminal case. But humor me, what if they get nowhere with this case and it drags on for years. How enthusiastic will you be, if five years from now, we are still no closer to having closure on this?

You mentioned Lance’s intentions following his “alleged” confession at the hospital. Yes, maybe he did intend to go back to his old ways and dope, or maybe, just maybe, he made the connection of the drugs to his cancer. It could also have been his intention to never, ever do anything like that again. I think it would be a compelling argument that when faced with his own mortality, he chose to never take the risk again. But again, it’s all conjecture.

I do think it’s fascinating that in the first few races back, Lance was never a real factor and from what I recall, all but retired. I think the story goes that Bob Roll reignited Lance’s passion for the bike during training rides in Boone, Somewhere USA. I often wonder if what really happened there was, Lance decided that he couldn’t compete at the upper level of professional cycling without the PEDs and with his enormous ego, decided it was worth the risk to give it one more try. Pure conjecture!

Not conjecture -just false:

In January of 1997, just after he had finished chemotherapy, Armstrong paid Ferrari a visit and,
when he resumed training in anticipation of his comeback in 1998, the close relationship with
Ferrari resumed, the doctor says.

 

[miloman]

Great quote, where did it come from? Who said it? By the way:

con·jec·ture   [kuhn-jek-cher] noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing.

1. the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.

2. an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.

 

[Deagol]

if you are worried about where the american government is spending money you better hope they stop invading countries where dictators they propped up with millions of $$$$$$ and armed for years go awol

yeah, no kidding ....

isn't it time to let this thread fade away already ?

 

[Tubeless]

Great quote, where did it come from? Who said it? By the way:

con·jec·ture   [kuhn-jek-cher] noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing.

1. the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.

2. an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.

Bicycling Magazine, January 2006

http://books.google.com/books?id=M8...page&q=Armstrong paid Ferrari a visit&f=false

It is is a quote from Dr Ferrari himself.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Great quote, where did it come from? Who said it? By the way:

con·jec·ture   [kuhn-jek-cher] noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing.

1. the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.

2. an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.

There is no need to express, guess or speculate when all of these issues have been confirmed.
Essential reading - Paging Doctor Ferrari, by Bill Giffrord.

 

[Tubeless]

I understand that, but for sake of argument, they have been lumped together because the one drives the other. It would seem to me that whatever is uncovered by the investigation, will be used in the criminal case. But humor me, what if they get nowhere with this case and it drags on for years. How enthusiastic will you be, if five years from now, we are still no closer to having closure on this?

If five years hence there has been no indictment, yet the investigation is still open, most will agree it was a dead end. But you're perhaps purposely ignoring the obvious milestone looming ahead - the statue of limitations for some of the alleged crimes is getting close. So in all likelihood you don't have to wait that long. Shall we pick up this topic again in a few months?

 

[Benotti69]

I for one hope that the Italians are watching this case against LA closely and making notes from which they can hang Ferarri once and for all...I hope he gets struck off, a huge tax bill, plus fines and prison.

 

[miloman]

Testimony -- Didn't Lie

For everyone that doubted my posts and opinion and said justice will be served, this ones for you:

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/armstrong-associate-appears-before-grand-jury-27879

I'll say it again, it isn't going to stick. Several news services are already saying that European agencies are not cooperating with the investigation; witness are recanting their stories; witness that many said would change their stories aren't. I feel sorry for Landis, LeMond and the Andreu's; the only ones to benefit from this will be the lawyers. At least Greg got a settlement; Floyd won't collect a dime and by many considered a pariah; and Frankie and his wife are probably blackballed for life. I don't call that justice, do you? Oh, and what's more, we the American tax payers, get to pick up the tab. What a waste!!!

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

What a waste!!!

Your posts are indeed a waste.