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Armstrong and Landis and Doping, Oh My!

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Jan 5, 2010
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We're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ. As if even he -- prosecutor and special agent Jeff Novitzky of the Food and Drug Administration -- can really make any sense of this mess. What's the cost to the US taxpayer? What will it solve? There's an old saying, "...do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? Certainly there is plenty of evidence to suggest that something questionable, if not illegal took place in the rank and file of the U. S. Postal/Discovery Team, but is it worth all the time, money and effort, so a few people can say I told you so?

:mad:
Take a page from the Germans and Swiss and what they did with Ullrich. Make Lance pay a fine, don't admit any wrongdoing, use the money for a worthwhile cause like anti-doping control measures and let everyone return to their lives and operate their interests under the thin veil of plausible deniability. Greg LeMond is a great cyclist who deserved greater respect! Floyd Landis played the game and got the shaft! Lance Armstrong won 7 tours and presides over an eponymous cancer foundation. It may not be fair, but it's the way things are. History cannot be rewritten, it's but a snapshot in time. Lets move on, there are more pressing needs in the world today.



-- Miloman
 
miloman said:
We're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ. As if even he -- prosecutor and special agent Jeff Novitzky of the Food and Drug Administration -- can really make any sense of this mess. What's the cost to the US taxpayer? What will it solve? There's an old saying, "...do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? Certainly there is plenty of evidence to suggest that something questionable, if not illegal took place in the rank and file of the U. S. Postal/Discovery Team, but is it worth all the time, money and effort, so a few people can say I told you so?

:mad:
Take a page from the Germans and Swiss and what they did with Ullrich. Make Lance pay a fine, don't admit any wrongdoing, use the money for a worthwhile cause like anti-doping control measures and let everyone return to their lives and operate their interests under the thin veil of plausible deniability. Greg LeMond is a great cyclist who deserved greater respect! Floyd Landis played the game and got the shaft! Lance Armstrong won 7 tours and presides over an eponymous cancer foundation. It may not be fair, but it's the way things are. History cannot be rewritten, it's but a snapshot in time. Lets move on, there are more pressing needs in the world today.

We will move on when Armstrong admits that he is a doper and a fraud and when we no longer have to read drivel from one post wonders.

We're not off to see the wizard. We are off to see The Clinic, the wonderful Clinic of Oz.
 
Feb 14, 2010
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miloman said:
-- Miloman

Nice first post. :eek: If you go to the Clinic section where doping is allowed to be discussed, you'll find hundreds of pages of posts on the topic.

Just as a preview, a LOT of us are rooting for him and his pals to lose millions of dollars and spend time in the five star Grey Bar Hotel. I also expect the international investigation to help put a hurt on dopers, suppliers, and enablers in cycling and other sports. Head on in and see what others believe.
 
Sep 11, 2009
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180mmCrank said:
Moved this to the clinic... not sure we really need another thread about this but feels a bit mean to close a newbie's first post :)

I get the vibe he doesn't plan to return. Sounds like a rant.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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theswordsman said:
Nice first post. :eek: If you go to the Clinic section where doping is allowed to be discussed, you'll find hundreds of pages of posts on the topic.

Just as a preview, a LOT of us are rooting for him and his pals to lose millions of dollars and spend time in the five star Grey Bar Hotel. I also expect the international investigation to help put a hurt on dopers, suppliers, and enablers in cycling and other sports. Head on in and see what others believe.
Lance is, at the moment, practising his perp walk, and using alot of lube, because he has to pop his cherry, cos his innards are gonna be hanging out like he sat on an automatic swimming pool cleaner vacuum, from the reaming from a cell mate named bubba. Ouch. If you check the S&P 500 for lube stocks, you should have gone long a month ago, because Armstrong has been buying up big. Organic growth.
 
Oct 18, 2009
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miloman said:
Make Lance pay a fine, don't admit any wrongdoing, use the money for a worthwhile cause like anti-doping control measures today.

-- Miloman

Putting Lance and Johan in prison is the only effective anti-doping method I can think of.
 
Aug 1, 2009
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miloman said:
... Make Lance pay a fine, don't admit any wrongdoing, use the money for a worthwhile cause like anti-doping control measures and let everyone return to their lives and operate their interests under the thin veil of plausible deniability. ...

They've already tried this back in 2005. It didn't work at all.
 

jimmypop

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Jul 16, 2010
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mercycle said:
Are you saying that Greg no longer deserves any respect?

That's the line at Public Strategies, at least.

When I read posts like the OP's, it reaffirms my notion that Armstrong and his associates sincerely believe they're able to outwit the world. The "smartest guys in the room," as it were.

In actuality, this group of opportunists trafficked in deceit and false hope and used the leverage of thugs - threats, moneyhats and promises of fame - to keep the myth alive. The prolific autistic typist Ayn Rand would be proud.
 
miloman said:
We're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ. As if even he -- prosecutor and special agent Jeff Novitzky of the Food and Drug Administration -- can really make any sense of this mess. What's the cost to the US taxpayer? What will it solve? There's an old saying, "...do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? Certainly there is plenty of evidence to suggest that something questionable, if not illegal took place in the rank and file of the U. S. Postal/Discovery Team, but is it worth all the time, money and effort, so a few people can say I told you so?



-- Miloman

Agenda trumps all. Only a handful of people out of millions care about this in the states. Those that care the most have already started on their first drafts. Government of the people, by the people, for the people flatlined a long time ago in the states. If Jay Mariotti is for something(this case or beating up his girlfriend)you can rest assured the OZ and the American people are against it.

ozzie-guillen-twitter.jpg
 
Apr 26, 2010
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auscyclefan94 said:
When the "**** hits the fan" for lance, will he bring everyone down with him or will he just deny, deny and deny everything.

Deny, deny and deny like you say. He will never admit. Whatever happens, even if Bruyneel and George and Levi all admit, Lance will never admit that he took PED's to win his 7 TDF titles.
 
Vonn Brinkman said:
Deny, deny and deny like you say. He will never admit. Whatever happens, even if Bruyneel and George and Levi all admit, Lance will never admit that he took PED's to win his 7 TDF titles.
Not sure about that. He's not a supervillain, he might well crack under the pressure. If the chicken**** stories are true, maybe it's even likely he'll crack.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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What is happening to Lance is well deserved.

He was ruthless with the people who deserted him and now it's catching up to him. He made many friends, but also ade many enemies. The only disturbing fact is that he needed not make enemies with anyone. It was all his creation.

The only ones I feel bad for are the cancer survivors that put their entire faith and hopes on this pinhead.

And their suffering is incalculable. Including for US taxpayers (some of whom are carcer survivors or are fighting it).
 
Jun 21, 2009
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miloman said:
We're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of OZ. As if even he -- prosecutor and special agent Jeff Novitzky of the Food and Drug Administration -- can really make any sense of this mess. What's the cost to the US taxpayer? What will it solve? There's an old saying, "...do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? Certainly there is plenty of evidence to suggest that something questionable, if not illegal took place in the rank and file of the U. S. Postal/Discovery Team, but is it worth all the time, money and effort, so a few people can say I told you so?

:mad:
Take a page from the Germans and Swiss and what they did with Ullrich. Make Lance pay a fine, don't admit any wrongdoing, use the money for a worthwhile cause like anti-doping control measures and let everyone return to their lives and operate their interests under the thin veil of plausible deniability. Greg LeMond is a great cyclist who deserved greater respect! Floyd Landis played the game and got the shaft! Lance Armstrong won 7 tours and presides over an eponymous cancer foundation. It may not be fair, but it's the way things are. History cannot be rewritten, it's but a snapshot in time. Lets move on, there are more pressing needs in the world today.



-- Miloman

alright lance, how's tricks
 
Jul 10, 2010
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jimmypop said:
. . .

In actuality, this group of opportunists trafficked in deceit and false hope and used the leverage of thugs - threats, moneyhats and promises of fame - to keep the myth alive. The prolific autistic typist Ayn Rand would be proud.

hehehehe! :D

180mmCrank said:
Moved this to the clinic... not sure we really need another thread about this but feels a bit mean to close a newbie's first post :)

It gave me some good chuckles to start the day!

;)
 
Jun 21, 2009
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Mich78BEL said:
euhm... No, i doubt anybody here in Europe cares that much about what will happen with his case, Armstrong is the past

the cycling community all over the world cares about this. and that is of course including europe, which is where cycling belongs
 
Jan 5, 2010
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You missed the point!

I think many of you missed the point. It isn’t a question of if something shady or unethical took place, I think we all agree that where there’s smoke, there’s fire. My point is, do you think anything will really come of this? I have met Greg LeMond, Lance Armstrong and Floyd Landis. As to my impression of them personally, if I were asked to rank them in order of honesty and integrity, I would say hands down Greg LeMond strikes me as the most honest and genuine of the bunch, followed distantly by Landis with Armstrong taking up the rear. Armstrong has a carefully crafted persona that is managed by high priced lawyers on retainer, and friends in high places with deep pockets and mutual interest to protect.

So What? Let’s be realistic about this. We can’t change the past. If we try, where will it end? So who among us is qualified to undertake the task of “revisionist history” of the Tour De France and put things right? How far back do we go with our bottle of whiteout and corrective pen? Do we start with Riis? What about Ullrich or Pantani? If Johan Bruynel is the architect of Armstrong’s 7 victories, do we go back even further to his racing days, his victories, his teams and teammates? Do we use guilt by association as the criterion for which to start our crusade? If so, anyone associated with an admitted or convicted doper should have their palmares erased or at the very least include an asterisk.

Say goodbye to Contador – associated with Bruynel; goodbye to Sastre and the Schleck Bros. – they worked for admitted doper Riis. The list goes on and on. Do your homework, look back to the Tour podium since ’96 and tell me, who can you hand the title to without fear of recrimination? How far down on the GC will we need to go? A director once said doping can’t make a race horse out of a mule. That’s true, there needed to be a load of talent and sacrifice; it not just the drugs. As distressing as it is to admit, it can be argued that all the top riders of that generation doped. So, the disturbing reality is that they all operated on a level playing field – albeit a chemically fueled playing field. The winner was the best of the doped-up competitors.

So, back to my original argument. What’s the point? Does anyone really believe we will ever get to the bottom of this? Will anyone be prosecuted? And for that matter, does anyone really deserve jail time if found guilty? We Americans have difficulty seeing sports for what it really is – entertainment! Sports and athletic events are diversions – not life or death. Athletes are no different than entertainers or movie stars. Do you think A-list actors or actresses hesitate for a second to undergo expensive and life-threatening surgeries or ingest dubious herbs and drugs with the promised payoff being a bigger paycheck and longer career? Remember, we’re talking millions of dollars here. Is this any different? Is it natural to look like your 30 when your actually 60? No, it isn’t! Can someone, through some artificial means, do so? The answer is, obviously yes! Should we denounce someone for taking this path and praise others for resisting? Well, that’s up to you. We can waste time wondering who has had what done, to where and if those are real or not, or we can accept them as entertainers and appreciate the entertainment value of what they do, and move on. It’s part of their culture. Just like doping was, and perhaps still is, the culture of cycling. Should actors and rock stars be held to the same standards as professional athletes? Should they be sent to jail for using steroids, HGH, etc. in their quest to be forever young and gain an edge on their competition?

The statue of limitations on most of what Armstrong and his cohorts are accused of doing has already expired or will expire soon. Don’t forget, as Armstrong and so many of his cronies are quick to point out, he never failed a drug test. So like it or not, I submit that that has to be the sole, overriding criteria in deciding who gets burned or not. We can’t rewrite the history books with hearsay and supposition. One needs indisputable proof.

It’s unfortunate that many talented riders either never got their chance to compete at the highest level, or had their careers cut short because they took the moral high road and refused to dope. I have great empathy for them. But, to again draw a parallel to the entertainment industry, how many actors, every bit as talented and handsome as Brad Pitt, or whoever you choose, are waiting tables or selling slurpies at the local convenience store. Or have you ever bumped into someone, who used to be someone and now they are real estate agents in some resort town out west? That’s life, as Sinatra would say, “…riding high in September, shot down in May!” It isn’t fair, but life rarely is. Time has a way of exposing people for who they really are – especially athletes. Let time and the court of public opinion do what no prosecutor or senate hearing has ever done -- put things right. Let’s stop the waste of time and taxpayer dollars. We’re on a train to nowhere!
 
So What? Let’s be realistic about this. We can’t change the past. If we try, where will it end?
It ends 8 years ago thanks to our little friend the statute of limitations, which is there precisely to help us deal with this kind of problem. We can't change the past, but this case can change the future. It's not about guilt by association either, it's about proved dopers being banned and serving their suspensions, and the enablers being kicked out of the sport. If this affects Contador, the Schlecks and all the other top stars, so be it. We already went through that in 2006 and it wasn't that terrible.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Milo, that what quite a polemic.

The argument between elite sport and Hollywood is not really holding water. You equate doping in sport to someone doing botox to extend their career in the media. There happens to be a massive difference.

Sport, upheld as it should be without doping, is MEANT to be unfair. It is the last bastion of 'unfairness' we have in western society. Someone wins, and everyone else is beaten. It is the last bastion of meritocracy left (assuming doping is left out).

The goal of sport is not entertainment. It is to provide an avenue of competition for those who think they can do and be better than others. Based on nothing more than their ability to do it. It's not democratic, it's not based on what people think about someone, whether there are questionable means to 'level' the playing field, it is solely based on what someone can do.

The arguments that someone doped less than someone else falls under this same umbrella - they broke the covenant of sport.

Based on the underlying tenets of sport, it MUST be kept clean. And by keeping it clean some peoples' feelings will be hurt. That happens to be the result of sport. Some people can do more than others, some peoplel are faster, some people can jump higher, some can jump further.

By someone losing to someone else they may be motivated to strive harder to not be beaten again, that's the idea. The idea is not to win at all costs, modify your physiology so you can perform beyond your natural ability, and cheat.

Sport, as I interpret it, is meant to bring out the finer points of being a competitive human. Suck up the losses, learn as much from them as the victories, and keep trying to be better.

As the last vestige of a true meritocracy left, I think we should all work for cleaning up sport and support all the avenues that that path is taking.

It's a bit more than running in for a tummy tuck and a shot of botox, it's about being able to DO as much as you can do. If that's not enough, then you learn from it and prepare to kick as much *** you can the next time around.

Thank god sport's not based on what your face and tits look like...
 
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